Ask Mr. Robot Sims Credibility

[Blayke]

That is odd. One silly thing to check - are you logged in to the site and client on the same username?

There are not enough words in the English language nor enough ways to arrange them to describe how stupid I'm feeling right now.

Thanks Zoop, you're the best!

[shindock]

Some things I've noticed about AMR with mut. They list the best 2 legendaries are new shoulders and Will of Valeera. Is this because they look strictly at the stats? Also, my gearing strategy came up with "ilvl 883 stat goal: 5400crit 1000haste 14900mastery 100vers". How can vers be weighted so low?

Also, shadowcrafted (sadly) still doesn't seem to be reliable this expansion. The auto gem and enchant buttons dropped me quite a bit of dps.

[Deleted]

Is it STILL suggesting mastery is bis for outlaw? Because that one was nice, and it fooled a huge number of newer players who wrongly trusted it.

[thottstation]

Outlaw Rogue.

AskMrRobot says to gear/gem/enchant into Mastery.

IcyVeins says to gear/gem/enchant into Versatility.

Shadowcraft says to gear/gem/enchant into... Haste?


Sigh... I miss Combat so damn much. Outlaw has sucked all the fun and confidence out of me. It feels terrible playing this game and simply NOT KNOWING what I should be doing because every single damn site disagrees.

[Misstigris]

Outlaw Rogue.

AskMrRobot says to gear/gem/enchant into Mastery.

IcyVeins says to gear/gem/enchant into Versatility.

Shadowcraft says to gear/gem/enchant into... Haste?


Sigh... I miss Combat so damn much. Outlaw has sucked all the fun and confidence out of me. It feels terrible playing this game and simply NOT KNOWING what I should be doing because every single damn site disagrees.

I have the exact same feeling. I realy don't know what stats/trinket looking for.
Right now i think i'm gonna come back to the old stats : CC/versa with a slight touch of haste and mastery.

[Deleted]

Outlaw Rogue.

AskMrRobot says to gear/gem/enchant into Mastery.

IcyVeins says to gear/gem/enchant into Versatility.

Shadowcraft says to gear/gem/enchant into... Haste?


Sigh... I miss Combat so damn much. Outlaw has sucked all the fun and confidence out of me. It feels terrible playing this game and simply NOT KNOWING what I should be doing because every single damn site disagrees.

It´s easy, trust simcraft all the way, it´s the most reliable one by far. Mastery is the worst stat for outlaw...

[Deleted]

I mostly use AMR because it's so much user friendly but I'm faced with doubts sometimes.

I play assassination and when I do a BiS sim to know what my end game wishlist should look like it says:

Stack high mastery + low crit gear, enchant and gem mastery
3 Envenom relics + 4P + Gul'dan trinket + Nightblooming frond + legendary bracers and shoulders.

I simed everything else, switching stats around, trinkets, legendaries, relics, and it all sims lower than that.

But, everywhere I go, people are saying CDReduction is the way to go and it sims the highest
legendary boots, 2MA + 1GW, CoF.

I'd like to actually know what's up and what I'm supposed to do.

I think I'm using it right but I'm not an expert so I might have missed something important, maybe one of you guys has/had this problem ?

Edit: Sim -> Single target 300sec

[Deleted]

I mostly use AMR because it's so much user friendly but I'm faced with doubts sometimes.

I play assassination and when I do a BiS sim to know what my end game wishlist should look like it says:

Stack high mastery + low crit gear, enchant and gem mastery
3 Envenom relics + 4P + Gul'dan trinket + Nightblooming frond + legendary bracers and shoulders.

I simed everything else, switching stats around, trinkets, legendaries, relics, and it all sims lower than that.

But, everywhere I go, people are saying CDReduction is the way to go and it sims the highest
legendary boots, 2MA + 1GW, CoF.

I'd like to actually know what's up and what I'm supposed to do.

I think I'm using it right but I'm not an expert so I might have missed something important, maybe one of you guys has/had this problem ?

Edit: Sim -> Single target 300sec

That´s another huge flaw amr has, doesnt value MA relics...

[thottstation]

It´s easy, trust simcraft all the way, it´s the most reliable one by far. Mastery is the worst stat for outlaw...

This is why I was so confused with AskMrRobot when I first started using it. When I first started Outlaw, I read IcyVeins and gemmed/enchanted Versatility as it said to do. But when I tried AMR, it said "NO no no, you're doing it wrong! Change all your gems/enchants to Mastery, and equip these items in your bags! TRUST!" So I did.

And yet here you are saying Mastery is the worst. Icy says Haste is the worst, yet Shadowcraft right now is telling me to replace both my ring enchants to Haste.

I hate this so much.

[Zoopercat]

@Wunju - What do you mean by "AMR doesn't value MA relics." It definitely does and I've worked with several rogues on these forums to confirm. If you found a case that isn't working, let me know! You can also run custom gearing strategies on AMR to get really solid stat weights.

Also @Wunju, Swol made a post that looked at a lot of outlaw setups. Here's a batch report on how different stat setups sim, with various legendaries: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...7c496f3ed30bc5

Also, we suggest using our (beta!) Machine Learning approach for outlaw rogues. http://blog.askmrrobot.com/machine-learning/

Tests seem to show that having specific balances of stats really benefits outlaw rogues. But stat weights don't reflect that - one weight is always higher and gets the priority. That's the nature of stat weights (not a flaw in how either simulator calculates them). If anyone gives it a shot and has questions, or something seems odd, hit me up. It's still in beta but it's looking pretty good so far

@shindock - We actually rank all items with procs directly from simulations (since they can't be ranked well with stats). However, keep in mind you'll want a custom gearing strategy that is tailored specifically to your character. Our defaults are for just 1 way to play and 1 setup. So when you run a custom setup, you'll get legendary (and trinket and relic) rankings specific to you. Here's a quick guide on how to do that: http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

@thottstation - Are you using default weights or custom? Default weights from guides and our site are for a good starting point for the casual player. Then when you really want to min/max, you run a custom setup on SimC or AMR. To do that, here's a guide http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

We're also always working on comparing our simulations to actual logs to make sure all of the data is right and the rotations match reality. We have a couple of minor tweaks for outlaw going in tonight to match up to logs (we have a private krosus script that we are comparing to, which should be live sometime on Monday).

[elfporn]

Zooper really laid it out, but id like to emphasize: run a gearing strategy and refer to the machine learning section of the results for stat goals at a certain ilvl for outlaw

The machine learning should help clarify the sensitivity of the weights.

[thottstation]

@thottstation - Are you using default weights or custom?

I import my character and click the Auto Gem/Enchant button (recommends all Mastery).

I set my priority to Outlaw, import the data from the addon, and click Find the Best in Bags button (recommends all Mastery).

If I've done something wrong, I'm not aware of it. It should be that simple.

EDIT:

http://imgur.com/a/qiwwm

I clicked the SIMULATE button, and saw my dps. I decided to change my gems/enchants to Versatility which were down the list, despite AskMr Robot saying in Red numbers that it's worse, by significant negative values. Clicked SIMULATE again. My dps was higher.

Which means all the gear the "Best In Bags" told me to wear is probably wrong as well.

Can't believe I actually paid for this crock.

[elfporn]

I import my character and click the Auto Gem/Enchant button (recommends all Mastery).

I set my priority to Outlaw, import the data from the addon, and click Find the Best in Bags button (recommends all Mastery).

If I've done something wrong, I'm not aware of it. It should be that simple.

EDIT:

http://imgur.com/a/qiwwm

I clicked the SIMULATE button, and saw my dps. I decided to change my gems/enchants to Versatility which were down the list, despite AskMr Robot saying in Red numbers that it's worse, by significant negative values. Clicked SIMULATE again. My dps was higher.

Which means all the gear the "Best In Bags" told me to wear is probably wrong as well.

Can't believe I actually paid for this crock.

use the import data from the AMR addon, it includes bag/bank data for the best-in-bags feature.

Before you do any of the above, click run simulation, choose gearing strategy under sim type, jump through the minor hoops to get the more comprehensive simming done (gearing strat runs over 800k sims in about 2500 runs/setups) it takes 20-30 minutes or more.

Take those results and save them. That's your new custom template.

at the top of the amr page, choose gear optimizer, select your character, and go from there. Predictive selections like BiS, upgrade finder, and BiBags use the results from gearing strategy for more accuracy (afaik)

Also, for outlaw, using the machine learning feature as a guideline for stat goals will give you a better idea where soft caps for stats like mastery are.

[thottstation]

use the import data from the AMR addon, it includes bag/bank data for the best-in-bags feature.

I do. That's what I paid money for. Seemed like such a good deal; a dollar here and there, and I can import data from ingame, click Best In Bags', and it tells me what do do. What could possibly go wrong?

Before you do any of the above, click run simulation

Said it would take too long, and told me to download the client. It's running simulation... for about half an hour now, and the site says it's up to 1670.

sigh... this is what I'm utterly hating about WoW these days. Can't put a damn piece of gear on because nothing ingame tells me if it's better or worse (certainly can't trust ilvl).

"Use Shadowcraft!" - It tells me to enchant Haste.

"Use AskMrRobot!" - It tells me to enchant Mastery.

"Use Icy Veins!" - It tells me to enchant Versatility.

And gear? THEY ALL TELL ME TO WEAR DIFFERENT THINGS.

Nothing the game has ever done has made me want to quit until now. I'm literally riding through zones with a 66% chance of wearing the completely wrong thing, like a vanilla warrior wearing Spirit.

[Hotmail]

How robust is Ask Mr.Robot? Shadowcraft has been giving me lots of crashes/bugs lately, and I'm in the mood to donate a few bucks to a worthy cause.

[elfporn]

I do. That's what I paid money for. Seemed like such a good deal; a dollar here and there, and I can import data from ingame, click Best In Bags', and it tells me what do do. What could possibly go wrong?



Said it would take too long, and told me to download the client. It's running simulation... for about half an hour now, and the site says it's up to 1670.

sigh... this is what I'm utterly hating about WoW these days. Can't put a damn piece of gear on because nothing ingame tells me if it's better or worse (certainly can't trust ilvl).

"Use Shadowcraft!" - It tells me to enchant Haste.

"Use AskMrRobot!" - It tells me to enchant Mastery.

"Use Icy Veins!" - It tells me to enchant Versatility.

And gear? THEY ALL TELL ME TO WEAR DIFFERENT THINGS.

Nothing the game has ever done has made me want to quit until now. I'm literally riding through zones with a 66% chance of wearing the completely wrong thing, like a vanilla warrior wearing Spirit.

Like i said, it will take 30+ minutes to run - you can set the client to run max to try and push it a bit faster.

The reason they all tell you different things is because they are all different simulators and likely use different baseline sets. So of course it makes sense that with X gear in sim A says mastery, Y gear in sim B says haste, and Z gear in sim C says versatility. This is why i suggested to run the gear strat(ie: custom sims set to determine your weights directly, and optimal stats at different ilvls) and use the machine learning function to see where those soft-caps might be and the set of goals to reach for those stats.

As far as BiS goes, there is no exact BiS set because gearing is so fluid right now. Technically a fully titanforged BiS set can be put together, but that's not a realistically achievable goal within progression. The stat goals from the machine learning results can help for a direction to go for BiS. The upgrade finder/BiS/BiBags options all operate with the saved gearing strat template from your character.

[thottstation]

Take those results and save them. That's your new custom template.
At the top of the amr page, choose gear optimizer...

Took a while, but it finally finished.

It's recommending CRIT now?!

Crit?

Three sites all disagreeing on what my best stat is (Vers/Mas/Has).. but now after AMR does the long slog, it's now telling me to gem/enchant CRIT?

HOW CAN NOT ONE SINGLE SIM SITE AGREE? I know they use different settings but seriously? Wouldn't at least TWO sites give roughly the same advice? Does anyone have a fourth site for me to try? Just wondering if that one will recommend INT.

[elfporn]

Took a while, but it finally finished.

It's recommending CRIT now?!

Crit?

Three sites all disagreeing on what my best stat is (Vers/Mas/Has).. but now after AMR does the long slog, it's now telling me to gem/enchant CRIT?

HOW CAN NOT ONE SINGLE SIM SITE AGREE? I know they use different settings but seriously? Wouldn't at least TWO sites give roughly the same advice? Does anyone have a fourth site for me to try? Just wondering if that one will recommend INT.

Crit is recommended by a lot of players outside of sims: over the various threads/posts about outlaw crit is generally acclaimed as one of the best stats to accumulate. That's not to say that at a point, other stats will become more valuable.

What are the machine learning stat goals? and your current stats?

[thottstation]

Crit is recommended by a lot of players outside of sims:

I just checked the warcraftlogs of the highest ranked Outlaw rogues. Every single damn one of them are gemming/enchanting Versatility.

sigh... that's it. I'm done with AMR. This whole damn thing was a mistake. Wasted real money, wasted real time. Done.

[Zoopercat]

@thottstation:

There are a lot of different things going on:

1. AMR and SimC are models of the game, some things are different, so stat results might be different.

2. When looking at top ranked logs, that isn't necessarily the right thing for YOU. They have different gear, etc and so on. The best thing to do if you are comparing to logs is use the feature to find someone like you, with your gear level and the same legendaries, etc.

3. Guides are a starting point, offering people a general idea of what's good for gear. But those aren't tailored specifically to your character like simulations are. To get the best gearing advice for YOU, simulations are the way to go. Using some human logic as a double-check that there isn't a bug, etc.

One of the reasons so many sources 'disagree' is that outlaw benefits from balance of most of your stats. Your DPS actually changes very little if you have a bit more crit or a bit more versatility. Unlike other classes where one secondary stat is the clear winner.

Lastly, now that your stat weights are done running on AMR, if you use machine learning, you won't have to do that again for a while, as long as your talents stay the same

And one more thing: you can edit the stat weights on AMR to do anything you want. Mr. Robot will pick whatever gear you want him to pick. Click the green view/edit button above the stat section. If you want versatility to be the highest, enter that, and then do Best in Bags again

If you give me your character name and realm, I can run some tests for you to help figure out how stats are affecting your character, specifically.

@Comforzonet: AMR is very reliable* - The asterisk is because we are still comparing sims to actual logs for the next few weeks. We do this to make sure all data is matching up, trinkets are proccing as expected and rotations are realistic.

As for stat weights: we look at 1000s of data points and run a statistical analysis on them to find the best set of weights. OR you can check out our machine learning (Which is is beta), and actually very good for outlaw rogues. The TLDR is that machine learning handles stat balances (stat weights don't), and it also knows that if you can't reach the BEST setup with the gear you have, it knows what the 2nd best setup is, and so on. Here's a blog post if you're interested: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/machine-learning/