About that combat revamp

[dope_danny]

My friend did the 3 months support and sent me the email about it, but even then it wasn't really clear just how much Yoshida was going to do. As much of a snore as Cataclysm was, getting alts up was more fun than what 1.0 had been and I wasn't hopping back into it at the time.

If I had known now what I knew then...



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I'll break the mold. I hated Vashj'ir and made the jump to FFXIV!

The zone was cool, I'll grant that, but the game play in the 360 degree environment didn't work for me. The story was unfulfilling as well.

With that said.... how dare you insult my people! Apologize to the entire proud and noble miqo'te race!

I'm not gonna shit on your tastes but the 360 movement thing always surprised me since it was literally just flying without the mount. Though leveling holy pally in vanilla made me get so used to using limited range on dps to pull a mob that in that enviroment it was second nature.

[Faroth]

I'm not gonna shit on your tastes but the 360 movement thing always surprised me since it was literally just flying without the mount. Though leveling holy pally in vanilla made me get so used to using limited range on dps to pull a mob that in that enviroment it was second nature.

There's a different between moving in a 360 degree environment and trying to manage enemies and combat in it. Combined with the slower movement of swimming, it was an overall annoying experience more than intriguing.

I'm not opposed to the notion, nor others taking a run at it. I just never found that zone to be particularly fun. Maybe if there were more of an exploration aspect and gameplay that set it apart more than the rest of an MMO's playstyle, I'd find it more interesting. But merely plopping the same basic concept in a 360 degree environment didn't make it new or fresh to me.

Also....YOU'RE NOT WIGGLING OUT THAT EASY! APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR FOUL BESMIRCHING OF THE PROUD AND NOBLE MIQO'TE!

[Lucrece]

There are a lot of job and cross class abilities that are useless.

Look at Summoner's Tri-Bind, completely useless spell that doesn't even work on most mobs. The summon abilities other than Contagion are pathetically weak. Hurray, a 30 potency aoe spell on a fairly long cd on the pet.

Then you have cross class skills on the summoner like Blizzard II. Or Blackmage's useless Freeze spell.

On the other hand, combat melee and tank classes NEED to level other tank/melee jobs to 30+ for abilities like blood for blood, mercy stroke, awareness, invigorate, fracture etc. Jobs should be self-contained.

[zito]

Lol blizzard 2

It's soooooooo weak

[Katchii]

Lol blizzard 2

It's soooooooo weak

As a leveling Black Mage though, for FATE farming it was amazing. Weak spell, but could spam it for days and get gold credit. It was never used in dungeons though, and I don't even have it slotted on my BLM now at 60.

[Kazgrel]

Lol blizzard 2

It's soooooooo weak

- Early level BLM for when you have to regen MP (but you need to hit at least 4 targets with it)
- Pre-Gravity AST (I still have nightmares of all the B2 spam I did leveling in Northern Thanalan via FATEs pre-PotD)
- Pre-Holy WHM
- Maybe some use for it at max level on SCH, but I do not play that job at max level, so I'm gonna defer on that one.

But yeah, it definitely "feels" weak. Especially compared to Fire 2...let along Flare.

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My friend did the 3 months support and sent me the email about it, but even then it wasn't really clear just how much Yoshida was going to do. As much of a snore as Cataclysm was, getting alts up was more fun than what 1.0 had been and I wasn't hopping back into it at the time.

If I had known now what I knew then...



- - - Updated - - -



I'll break the mold. I hated Vashj'ir and made the jump to FFXIV!

The zone was cool, I'll grant that, but the game play in the 360 degree environment didn't work for me. The story was unfulfilling as well.

With that said.... how dare you insult my people! Apologize to the entire proud and noble miqo'te race!

Yup, hindsight being 20/20 and all. Despite how meh it was, Cata did add some good stuff to WoW that I enjoyed immensely (transmog and RBGs), shaman was viable for pvp (brokenly so as resto), so there's no way I could say I would've rather played pre-ARR FF14 over it. Would've abandoned ship on it anyway once GW2 came out.

Did you play Vashj'ir as a melee? Only melees I would've cared to run that area on would be warrior and DK, thanks to gap closers. That said, I'm pretty sure all but 1-2 of my alts were leveled through Hyjal back then.

[lawow74]

I'm not gonna shit on your tastes but the 360 movement thing always surprised me since it was literally just flying without the mount. Though leveling holy pally in vanilla made me get so used to using limited range on dps to pull a mob that in that enviroment it was second nature.

The problem was it totally gimped ground-targeted AoE's, they could not be used at all. Which made it suck if you wanted to play Frost Mage. Nice idea, bad execution. And the zone story of Vashj'ir SUCKED. HARD. It was like playing in some 11-year-old's first D&D campaign starring their Pet NPC, who has to show up and save you at every turn, just so in the end all your time and effort...means nothing.

[Lucrece]

Vash'jir's zone story was amazing, what are you talking about. It was all about the intrigue between the nagas, the old gods, Neptulon, and how the naga wiped out the vrykul as competitors for dominance in the zone. You went inside the bodies of large servants of the old gods, helped your capsized team mates regroup, and it was an aquatic environment which is pretty unique in WoW.

Meanwhile, the alternative was that shithole Hyjal. AKA Ragnaros 2.0 nostalgia repeat with the retarded Druids of the Flame storyline. Green dragons and archdruid being made fire servants was so laughably absurd.

The only reason Vash'jir's story went nowhere is because the asshole devs decided to abandon Abyssal Maw and Neptulon's storyline completely, just as they did a huge disservice to Al'Akir. The entire xpac was all about Ragnaros; the Earthmother, Neptulon, and Al'Akir were totally sidelined. Then we got some more of Green Jesus since Chris Metzen wanted his Mary Sue fashioned after him to take on an even bigger role.

We killed Deathwing in the most underwhelming way possible and never got to dealing with who was handing orders to him, aka N'Zoth. The following two expansions have been about recycling storylines, the disaster that was the orc warlords as if all the orc shit in MOP wasn't enough, and then the Illidonger becoming Purple Jesus.

Let's be honest here, WoW is not played for its story. It's incredibly derivative.

[Remilia]

Oooo...that almost makes me wish I bailed on WoW sooner, even with how failboat 1.0 was. I could've probably stomached it later on...but whether or not I would've been around when they started requiring paid subscription again, I have no idea. The whole hindsight being 20/20 thing and whatnot.

I always wanted to try 1.0 but never really did. My friend played it for a bit and has a little tattoo on the back of the character, which is admittedly cool but also weird with some costumes.

[Lucrece]

I always wanted to try 1.0 but never really did. My friend played it for a bit and has a little tattoo on the back of the character, which is admittedly cool but also weird with some costumes.

1.0 was a total disaster. I could only stomach 3 days of open beta. Total grindfest, little leveling through quests it was all about grinding mobs to level up. Killing mosquitoes and monkeys for hours on the copy paste garden tunnels that was Gridania before the map revamps.

The maps were virtually copy paste assets. Go and search in youtube for FFXIV copy paste maps.

The combat was incredibly slow and limited.

It was utterly disgraceful how little effort and thought had gone into 1.0, and it wasn't until Yoshida was called in that changes were made to make the game playable and acceptable to the public.

[lawow74]

Vash'jir's zone story was amazing, what are you talking about. It was all about the intrigue between the nagas, the old gods, Neptulon, and how the naga wiped out the vrykul as competitors for dominance in the zone. You went inside the bodies of large servants of the old gods, helped your capsized team mates regroup, and it was an aquatic environment which is pretty unique in WoW.

Meanwhile, the alternative was that shithole Hyjal. AKA Ragnaros 2.0 nostalgia repeat with the retarded Druids of the Flame storyline. Green dragons and archdruid being made fire servants was so laughably absurd.

Sorry, all I saw in Vashj'ir was '...then Erunak SAVES you!' at every turn. Fighting Nagas? Nope, lightning storm, you're saved, no way you could've won without Erunak! OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Mt. Hyjal, I felt like I accomplished something, made a difference. Fuck, I got to beat up Ragnaros alongside Cenarius and Malfurion, not watch some dipshit Draenei play bug-zapper at every turn with water-snakes.

That's the point: In Hyjal, MY CHARACTER did things. Not some fucknut of an NPC doing it FOR ME.

But I digress, at least in FF, I feel like I've been important to things, not just a convenient foil for the NPC's who are the real stars of WoW. PC's don't mean shit, it's all about the game creators' characters over there, i.e. Green and Purple Jesus.

[Lucrece]

Well, Erunak got abducted pretty early and you were single handedly responsible for defeating the Naga and releasing Neptulon, rescuing Erunak from mind control, and driving off a giant squid.

I really don't care for Ragnaros. I already fought him once, don't need a repeat. But that's WoW's problem, they've been milking the MMO by delaying story development so they can do nostalgia repeats to lengthen the life of their storylines since it's so obvious they've ran out of ideas for the legion and don't want to get to the old gods since they haven't even decided what that entails.

And let's be honest, FF has its flaws, like the cheesy ass fucking twins who I'd love to feed to Bahamut. Everytime Alphinaud shows up with his "confound it!" I go full tilt.

[StrawberryZebra]

Jobs should be self-contained.

I completely agree with you. I confess, I was somewhat curious as to why I couldn't simply start the game with my chosen Job right from the outset. They all have a very clear progression path anyway, excluding the Arcanist, so I struggle to see what the purpose is. I get that they wanted to flesh out each job with it's own unique story, but they could have done that if you started out with it anyway, so it's not much of an argument.

Coincidentally, I've recently been playing with a friend who decided to return to the game recently and decided to work on leveling up a Dragoon. It's hillarious that he's simultaneously working on a questline involving Estinien stealing Nidhogg's eye and dealing with the fact that Estinien is also, currently, Nidhogg at the point he's upto at the main story. I get that the Dragoon questline was written before Heavensward, but it does seem very contradictory when you complete it after the main quest line ends.

There are some basic skills which every job should have really. Like a Taunt for tanking jobs for instance, it should be part of each tanks kit without having to cross class it from the Gladiator. Perhaps there should even be a common pool of maybe 8-10 shared tanking skills that you could choose to fill your cross class skills with, which are unlocked as you reach the right level with any tanking class. It would give you the flexibility to adapt to most situations regardless of which tank you're playing, without the hassle of needing to level them all to 30-34 just to unlock everything.

Lol blizzard 2

It's soooooooo weak

But for Summoners, it's both more damaging and casts faster than Tri-Bind, the summoner specific AoE. It's not that Blizzard 2 is good, just that Tri-Bind is that bad.

[lawow74]

But that's WoW's problem, they've been milking the MMO by delaying story development so they can do nostalgia repeats to lengthen the life of their storylines since it's so obvious they've ran out of ideas for the legion and don't want to get to the old gods since they haven't even decided what that entails.

I think it's more they recognize that their whales are all skinner box addicts that would fight a giant cube shooting lasers that had Ghostcrawler's face slapped on it if it meant they could get EPIC LOOTZ! That's WoW's problem, their main focus will always, always, ALWAYS be raiding. Nothing else will ever get the level of attention it does. Everything else takes a backseat.

And I sort of agree, Alphinaud has gotten a bit tiresome, we need to spend more time with other characters. Hopefully Yda will take center stage in Stormblood, perhaps with more of a focus on Allisae as well.

[Aruhen]

I think it's more they recognize that their whales are all skinner box addicts that would fight a giant cube shooting lasers that had Ghostcrawler's face slapped on it if it meant they could get EPIC LOOTZ! That's WoW's problem, their main focus will always, always, ALWAYS be raiding. Nothing else will ever get the level of attention it does. Everything else takes a backseat.

Which is fucked up because the vast majority of their player base doesn't even bother with raids and they were the ones who said this.

[Berethos08]

I completely agree with you. I confess, I was somewhat curious as to why I couldn't simply start the game with my chosen Job right from the outset.

I believe the decision to do that has its origins in the design of 1.0 - namely how the jobs were added as specializations in patch 1.21, and before it was just the base classes. Rather than uproot all of that for characters going into the new version of 2.0, it seems they chose to keep that part of the design for some continuity.

[Consiliem]

I completely agree with you. I confess, I was somewhat curious as to why I couldn't simply start the game with my chosen Job right from the outset.

I can understand that, although I enjoy the feeling of progression you get from advancing to your job. Feels good to walk past the Lancers' Guild as a dragoon, knowing you learned everything from them and straight up passed them. Not to mention how awesome it feels to equip that first job crystal and watch your class icon change from the boring simple class design to the better looking job icons.

End of the day, I think it would cheapen the feeling of character progression as it feels like jobs are specifically given at 30 for a halfway point in leveling through 2.x content. I doubt you'd get the cool job-defining skills until those higher levels anyway.

[StrawberryZebra]

I doubt you'd get the cool job-defining skills until those higher levels anyway.

Which is the main reason it strikes me as being unnessacary. Functionally, a Thaumaturge is identical to a Black Mage in all but name. Similarly with Conjourer and the White Mage etc etc. Why not just let you start as a Level 1 Black Mage and lets just call a Horse a Horse, shall we? Getting to play those iconic FF jobs in an MMO setting does have its appeal, especially to fans of the series, so just let them pick the one they want from the outset. It changes quite literally nothing about the play experience.

There are plenty of ways to keep the feeling of having progressed within the story. For instance, you could start off as an Initiate doing menial tasks, then move up to an Apprentice and so on. You already get those big progress moments in the form of class quests anyway, so it's not as if those would be stripped away.

[Sorrior]

I believe the decision to do that has its origins in the design of 1.0 - namely how the jobs were added as specializations in patch 1.21, and before it was just the base classes. Rather than uproot all of that for characters going into the new version of 2.0, it seems they chose to keep that part of the design for some continuity.

Honestly I think they originally planned to expand it but skipped that. I for one feel they just had to add a few weapon types abd with offhanders could have done alot.

Like a swordmster class that could become Sam or DRK to start with a whip user who becomes a Blu and woukd be subclass for a dancer maybe and so on.

Also maybe change a bit to have certain weapons tied to jobs like sch and SMN so DRK gets greatswords that look like scythe for old school(HAD they gone this way) or classic greatswords Sam Katana looking ones.

Classes like DRK could have been sword master and black mage the mystic Knight could be gladiator abd black name or sword master abd black mage

Rapier could be called duelist and become rune fencer or red mage. With rune fencer as a magic tank that requires maybe black mage or sch up. While red mage required white mage and black mage(they did talk about advanced jobs once)

Hell naybe offhand could have contributed so say a marksman(gunner) with a sword Oh becomes a buccaneer ot somesuch as we have seen and with a toolkit a Machinist

[Melsiren]

I can't say I fully agree with base class and the job being the same across the board, for some classes sure.... even though as a Thauma I feel like an apprentice and as a Blackmage I feel like a Wizard.

But mechanically the change from being a Lancer to Dragoon is huge, even more so from 50-60. In general it seems the Melee classes tend to have more of a profound difference as they develop into a job, but Melee also suffers from feeling the same from 1-30.