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  1. #221
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    Why can`t people just enjoy the game, does it matter how fast world first guilds clear it ? most of the people won`t even see mythic Guldan before the new tier, if even that. If mythics would be even harder then most of the people would not see it before the new expansion.

  2. #222
    Scarab Lord Crackleslap's Avatar
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    Don't know what people expect with DBM doing the boss fight for you, the journal and PTR. If none of that shit existed it was take a lot longer to down bosses.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    ... So what can be done?

    The best guild in the race at the moment, <Serenity> EU, are at 7/10 in the Nighthold and we've not yet wrapped up the first day; my suspicion is that probably only Gul'dan will survive the reset, and even that might not happen given the pace at which bosses are falling over (and split-runs will be completed).

    I'm not arguing the game is too easy.

    I'm not saying the top guilds are doing too well.

    I'm not even whinging about how quickly the best guilds in the world are clearing content I'll never look at.

    What I'm suggesting is that, just maybe, the top players have mastered whatever PvE can throw at them and perhaps a review is needed.

    So, here's the question:

    Is the race really even worth it any more?

    I won't lie, this is the least interested I've ever been in the race to world first, and I've been tracking it since mid-Wrath. Even the community seems generally disinterested, with MMO-C not having their usual WoW Progress page linked to the first post. The typical guilds are all there, with <Method> likely to be the first to round the place out, and I'll probably wake up tomorrow to see a guild or two moving up a couple more notches on the progression bed post.

    What's next?

    Blizzard put every effort into making the race exciting for top players, and they're wrapping up these instances in record times with nobody to seemingly care. Whether it's the fact that players are better than ever now, the access to PTR/beta, or random gear inflation and legendaries making bosses beatable before their intended time, "the race" seems to be dying a death before anyone even knew it was happening.

    Is it now time to accept that chasing the dragon of difficulty fetishists has flunked, and that Mythic is really just an unnecessary exercise in vanity?

    Or is there something else Blizzard can do to make their progression players excited?

    Answers on a postcard.
    You should be arguing the game Is too easy.

    You should be saying tops guilds are doing too well.

    You should complain (Whine makes It sound worse) that the best guilds clear raids within days or weeks




    The game Is too easy, as there's been lots of utility removal, dumbing down of the game, casualifiing the classes to make It Into 2-3 button rotations with no brainfunction required.

    Top guilds are finishing mythics so fast It's hilariously bad, how long did It take to clear vanila raids, TBC raids or even Wrath ones? Pretty long... upwards of a month. THAT Is the challange, clearing the hardest raid within days or a week shows how badly the game challanges you.

    They're doing well only because the game makes It too easy, and only the guilds who are tryharding their way heavily through It all, being lucky due to legendary RNG drops, grinding Artifact Power and probably not sleeping since launch for days and days grinding that AP are able to get that first kill... that's not fun surely.

    And as mentioned before. It takes time and challanging raids to be taken down within a month at MINIMUM. Not only one of the reasons Is we can just go to PTR and find out half the tactics already, as we couldn't do that before, but we're given guides, videos and everything I fed to us how we can beat this content, rather then doing the more enjoyable thing of "Figuring out the tactics by ourselves, on LIVE, not PTR"



    Shortly: The game Is too easy, and has been since Cataclysm. What Blizzard can do Is revert to the old ways of difficulty, challange, less casual more hardcore content, don't take away abilities, don't take away utility, people are smart enough to know how to use these 20 abilities all together without you dumbping them down to 5 buttons.

    To this day, I wonder where did hunter traps go, where's Lichborne for DKs, why was rend returned to the game as It's a useless bloody ability this time around, why can't mages suddenly use frostbolt If they're a fire mage? You're an archmage, supposedly. That means multiple specs and schools of magic that you should know not just ONE... there's so many decisions they've made to change the "Fantasy of the class" that I don't agree with. A class fantasy Is highly subjective, everyone has their own class fantasy, Blizzard, you cant define that fantasy for us, we define It ourselves.
    Permabanned on WoW since April 14th 2015, main acc I had since vanilla gone and trashed for no good reason, 6+ years later still banned with more appeals resulting in my BATTLENET games being suspended for a month eachtime I try making TICKETS because I'm asking for help with the perma ban. Blizzard has stopped caring for their first veteran players and would rather we leave, considering the Lawsuit, can you afford to keep peps banned even for so long under questionable circumstances?

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Crackleslap View Post
    Don't know what people expect with DBM doing the boss fight for you, the journal and PTR. If none of that shit existed it was take a lot longer to down bosses.
    If DBM did the bosses for them, wouldn't they have cleared by now?

    This is the dumbest argument, as bossmods have been a thing forever, in just about every MMO, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    Top guilds are finishing mythics so fast It's hilariously bad, how long did It take to clear vanila raids, TBC raids or even Wrath ones? Pretty long... upwards of a month. THAT Is the challange, clearing the hardest raid within days or a week shows how badly the game challanges you.

    Raid encounters aren't tuned to top guilds though. Blizzard realized a long, long time ago that pandering to the more casual player base is infinitely more profitable than catering and designing their game around the top .1%. Personally? I'm a fan of the 'you can kill it, or you can't' mentality, but that would effectively lock out most guilds from ever seeing Mythic content which would eventually kind of defeat the purpose of having it in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    Shortly: The game Is too easy, and has been since Cataclysm. What Blizzard can do Is revert to the old ways of difficulty, challange, less casual more hardcore content, don't take away abilities, don't take away utility, people are smart enough to know how to use these 20 abilities all together without you dumbping them down to 5 buttons.
    The game has been easy since forever, it was literally designed from the beginning to be a more casual EverQuest.
    Last edited by Mercane; 2017-01-28 at 12:17 PM.

  5. #225
    This small percentage of guilds argument that people so easily spout off is just so confusing.

    Small percentage of what? All the guilds in wow? All the players in wow? All guilds that have stepped foot in a raid? All the players that have stepped foot in a raid? Like what fraction of those guilds even care about mythic? Raiding somewhat seriously?

    I feel like that whole argument is rooted in BS.


    On another note- be honest- the game isn't as challenging as it used to be. Most things are either spoonfed to players or can be bought. I'm not saying we need more grinding but this game should make difficulties actually difficult. I feel like blizzard is catering to the lazy.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    That is arguably what makes it harder, though, isn't it?
    On topic: yeah, this is not 7/10 on the first day. These days you can count the PTR days too, so we are likely at multiple months now.
    Yeah, though not my cup of tea when it comes to difficulty styles (which is why I was annoyed when they removed 10 man from mythic raiding; it just increased the amount of egos you need to manage to raid).

    Quote Originally Posted by Toroc View Post
    This small percentage of guilds argument that people so easily spout off is just so confusing.

    Small percentage of what? All the guilds in wow? All the players in wow? All guilds that have stepped foot in a raid? All the players that have stepped foot in a raid? Like what fraction of those guilds even care about mythic? Raiding somewhat seriously?

    I feel like that whole argument is rooted in BS.


    On another note- be honest- the game isn't as challenging as it used to be. Most things are either spoonfed to players or can be bought. I'm not saying we need more grinding but this game should make difficulties actually difficult. I feel like blizzard is catering to the lazy.
    Stupid positions like this one is what drove Wildstar into the ground.

    "Wildstar raids are not for the lazy. They're hardcore! So we'll force you to do several attunements, and the top tier raids are 40 man and difficult to the point it took the top guilds 9 months to clear Datascape."

    And then the majority of people left because it turns out most people aren't college students with tons of hours to spare to prepare for raids and then 4+ hours several days a week.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-01-28 at 01:23 PM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    No, ptr should not be removed. Removing ptr means therer will be much more bugs. There is no way internal team can catch everything.

    The thing is every solution to the speed of the race will come at a price and this issue is not worth it.
    Not having PTR doesn't mean you can't have BETA testers or even the Public test realms.
    All they need to do is to put a NDA on the beta testers to clamp down on all the videos and guides on youtube and the internet telling everyone about everything before new content is released.

    Sure some sites like Fatboss and others may be affected but that is a different issue.

    Also, a big way to improve the difficulty of endgame content is to limit the ability to over gear raids before they are released. The fact that Blizzard has been swelling the gear roster with so many ranks of purple gear and now WF and TF on top of that is the biggest problem. If they scaled back on the gear inflation and made clear gaps between logical 'tiers' of gear it would be a much better progression. But they jumped the shark this expansion starting with artifact weapons then heaped a whole extra helping of legendary weapons on top of that and to top it off the WF/TF option, this makes raid content hard NOT to beat. The gear rewarded by a raid should be progressively higher level than whatever gear could be obtained up to that point, meaning nobody should be able to over gear the raid when it first opens. That is how it normally worked in the early days of WOW.

    WQ gear should never be rewarding gear better than normal+ raid gear. This includes legendary weapons. Those should only come from doing "legendary" things, like raid content or beating raid content at a certain difficulty with something like mythic+ hard modes that are triggered by certain actions during the raid itself. Mythic+ dungeons should not be rewarding gear above normal raid gear. It makes no sense.

    Hard to see how they are going to top this in the next expansion. And this just shows how they have screwed up the game balance by introducing artifact weapons and legendary weapons as enticements for players to buy the expansion, IMO. Now they have pretty much run out of options for how they can provide compelling enticements in future expansions.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2017-01-28 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    ... So what can be done?

    The best guild in the race at the moment, <Serenity> EU, are at 7/10 in the Nighthold and we've not yet wrapped up the first day; my suspicion is that probably only Gul'dan will survive the reset, and even that might not happen given the pace at which bosses are falling over (and split-runs will be completed).

    I'm not arguing the game is too easy.

    I'm not saying the top guilds are doing too well.

    I'm not even whinging about how quickly the best guilds in the world are clearing content I'll never look at.

    What I'm suggesting is that, just maybe, the top players have mastered whatever PvE can throw at them and perhaps a review is needed.

    So, here's the question:

    Is the race really even worth it any more?

    I won't lie, this is the least interested I've ever been in the race to world first, and I've been tracking it since mid-Wrath. Even the community seems generally disinterested, with MMO-C not having their usual WoW Progress page linked to the first post. The typical guilds are all there, with <Method> likely to be the first to round the place out, and I'll probably wake up tomorrow to see a guild or two moving up a couple more notches on the progression bed post.

    What's next?

    Blizzard put every effort into making the race exciting for top players, and they're wrapping up these instances in record times with nobody to seemingly care. Whether it's the fact that players are better than ever now, the access to PTR/beta, or random gear inflation and legendaries making bosses beatable before their intended time, "the race" seems to be dying a death before anyone even knew it was happening.

    Is it now time to accept that chasing the dragon of difficulty fetishists has flunked, and that Mythic is really just an unnecessary exercise in vanity?

    Or is there something else Blizzard can do to make their progression players excited?

    Answers on a postcard.

    Most retardest post i ever read. I mean, why do you even exist.. i mean on earth? Who the fuck care?!? Why do u care when some guilds cleared faster? We already knew this will happen under two weeks or a week clearance of mythic. This game isn't hard anymore. "The race" is already dead long time ago. It's quite boring to watch "The race". Honestly pointless right now, whoever get to world first *no such thing* get to suck blizzard dick. That's about it.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Toroc View Post
    Small percentage of what? All the guilds in wow? All the players in wow? All guilds that have stepped foot in a raid? All the players that have stepped foot in a raid? Like what fraction of those guilds even care about mythic? Raiding somewhat seriously?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toroc View Post
    On another note- be honest- the game isn't as challenging as it used to be. Most things are either spoonfed to players or can be bought. I'm not saying we need more grinding but this game should make difficulties actually difficult. I feel like blizzard is catering to the lazy.
    Complains that the game is easier, but never considers that it feels that way because he's been playing it for a while. Seems legit.

  10. #230
    What was the point of this thread?????
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  11. #231
    And how many bosses have you killed so far in mythic NH?

  12. #232
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Not having PTR doesn't mean you can't have BETA testers or even the Public test realms.
    All they need to do is to put a NDA on the beta testers to clamp down on all the videos and guides on youtube and the internet telling everyone about everything before new content is released.

    Sure some sites like Fatboss and others may be affected but that is a different issue.

    Also, a big way to improve the difficulty of endgame content is to limit the ability to over gear raids before they are released. The fact that Blizzard has been swelling the gear roster with so many ranks of purple gear and now WF and TF on top of that is the biggest problem. If they scaled back on the gear inflation and made clear gaps between logical 'tiers' of gear it would be a much better progression. But they jumped the shark this expansion starting with artifact weapons then heaped a whole extra helping of legendary weapons on top of that and to top it off the WF/TF option, this makes raid content hard NOT to beat. The gear rewarded by a raid should be progressively higher level than whatever gear could be obtained up to that point, meaning nobody should be able to over gear the raid when it first opens. That is how it normally worked in the early days of WOW.

    WQ gear should never be rewarding gear better than normal+ raid gear. This includes legendary weapons. Those should only come from doing "legendary" things, like raid content or beating raid content at a certain difficulty with something like mythic+ hard modes that are triggered by certain actions during the raid itself. Mythic+ dungeons should not be rewarding gear above normal raid gear. It makes no sense.

    Hard to see how they are going to top this in the next expansion. And this just shows how they have screwed up the game balance by introducing artifact weapons and legendary weapons as enticements for players to buy the expansion, IMO. Now they have pretty much run out of options for how they can provide compelling enticements in future expansions.
    Again, why you want to fix something that doesn't need fixing? All your ideas come with a price that is not worth the hassle. This issue doesn't affect 99% of the playerbase while of it will have to pay the price for the "fix"

  13. #233
    I am Murloc!
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    So, seeing how now it's barely two guilds with 8/10 in five days, did the OP apologize for their overreaction or is it still "it's too fast, let's buff it somehow!"

    I was always confused by threads like this. Do people not understand that World First guilds raid more in a single day than "normal" mythic guilds do in entire reset? Combine this with much higher average skill level and the result is simple. If something takes them multiple reset, it's pretty much unkillable for more than a few guilds before major nerfs. Doesn't even have to be multiple resets - just look at Helya. She died "quickly", but no one would call her easy.

    In addition to that, it's the first expansion where they don't start the bosses while drastically undergeared. Of course the item levels will still increase over the weeks of farming, but it won't be anywhere near previous tiers. Both legendaries could be upgraded before even starting mythic progress. Titanforged items can drop anywhere. Splits runs handle tier sets, like usual. They all have 54 traits. They stack classes whenever possible.

    The worst part of these threads is that they're not made by actual World First raiders, but people watching the entire thing from the sides. They see problems where there are none. Yes, Xavius was dissapointing on Mythic. No, this does not mean everything has to be changed because someone wants an absurd race that screws over the majority of mythic raiders.

  14. #234
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Not my problem if your pseudo-country doesn't use it as a slang there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Here in the U.S. we actually had some slang terms that predated any Internet culture. I did not realize that over there in your almost country that you don't use slang outside of the context of the Internet.

    Oh, look! A pair of 'Murican trolls sighted under a bridge! And to think I almost took Scotland being described as a 'pseudo-country' seriously, pointing out that it had many centuries more national history than yours (even prior to the act of union), or that the suggestion Scots don't use slang was laughably stupid.


    Thanks for saving me the trouble.


    Quote Originally Posted by fluttershypony View Post
    Yeah cause algalon/limited attempts weren't fucking retarded

    I don't think anyone wants to go back to that; and I'm pretty sure Blizzard have said so, too... But I'll need to find the source.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    OP:


    Forgive me if this sounds rude, as that's not my intent... but it seems like you're trying to find a problem where none exists. The top .001% have mastered the game and its possible mechanics. To be expected. Blizzard didn't make that content for these players, so they're not concerned about the most exceptional few players in the world making the hardest raid content seem trivial.

    You're not being rude at all. I think concluding that it's fine and needs no attention is a perfectly valid conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    The game Is too easy, as there's been lots of utility removal, dumbing down of the game, casualifiing the classes to make It Into 2-3 button rotations with no brainfunction required.
    I completely disagree with your entire post.

  15. #235
    I liked when they didn't have raid testing on the ptr. Things were more unbalanced, but it was fun to walk into a raid that was an actual surprise. These days there are raid guides before the raid is even released.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Perr View Post
    I liked when they didn't have raid testing on the ptr. Things were more unbalanced, but it was fun to walk into a raid that was an actual surprise. These days there are raid guides before the raid is even released.
    that would have been pretty early in vanilla then because I remember the naxx ptr which had i think the first premade characters fully decked out in t2, so you could take your guild into the ptr and try naxx before it was released and i'm almost certain the guilds that managed to get far in there, did exactly that, practised on the ptr first before it was released.

    I can't remember if the raids before that had a ptr, there were ptrs but the ones before naxx forced you to copy your own character and there were no premade chars. the naxx ptr was a laggy clusterfk of ppl playing characters in gear they would most likely end up never getting.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-01-29 at 01:45 PM.

  17. #237
    I think they should make a "challenge" arena type of thing.

    Take one boss from any of the raids (even old ones) and slap some ridiculous tuning or ability on them and see who can beat it. It can even have two modes: one for regular "good" guilds that has crazy tuning but not insane, and the insane one for the wf guilds.

    The boss stays up for a week (or two, depending on turn around time), then it is replaced- even if no one beats it.

    In the arena area, they should put things like banks, portals, vendors so that players can hang out there as well. You can make it an arena complex. One arena for the "challenge" a brawler's guild arena and a pvp arena. All in one place. Maybe even some of the "greats" from WOW lore could pop in and offer a quest or something, make an appearance in the arena or just get drunk or something and throw out sound bites.

  18. #238
    Deleted
    The issue that I'm facing here is that even if blizzard makes a beyond myhic difficulty it's going to be a gear check once more, the top guilds aren't particularly shook by the encounters but rather their own overall ilvl.

    To make the mechanics challenging you'll have to devise something that'll catch everyone off guard. A good place to start is to look at some of the bosses in the brawler's guild and imagining them in a Mythic raid scenario.

  19. #239
    Over 9000! Saverem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    Oh, look! A pair of 'Murican trolls sighted under a bridge! And to think I almost took Scotland being described as a 'pseudo-country' seriously, pointing out that it had many centuries more national history than yours (even prior to the act of union), or that the suggestion Scots don't use slang was laughably stupid.
    Whether you take it seriously or not is irrelevant. It's a pseudo-country. Please deals.

    If you don't relax, I'm going to ask Trump to take your little area and put it in time out.
    Last edited by Saverem; 2017-01-29 at 05:47 PM.
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  20. #240
    When you're 8/10 Mythic NH, then you can whine about how the game's too easy.

    Until then, shut the fuck up.
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