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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    Everyone has different expectations and limitations. If people in the guild are fine with clearing without breaks, and still feel they have a relaxed, social setting, than that is up to them to determine. The OP was warned that his behavior is unacceptable. The OP did not make any claim that he tried to petition for an actual break, only that he broke the guild's rules. Your claims are valueless.

    If I feel like a social guild requires having a break every hour, that does not mean that a guild that has one every two hours is not a social guild. People are different. Their treatment of the OP is also not overbearing in the slightest.

    - - - Updated - - -


    He was given fair warning, ignored it, went out of his way to try and shame his guild, and was shown to be doing far worse than he himself had let on. He had every right to be kicked. Nothing is army like about having standards, casual or not. The definition of casual is not set and stone.
    Our experiences are different. In most raiding guilds I've been part of, we might whined about afkers on trash, but we really tolerated it. And especially as I told in another post, that slacker is carrying the guild by being consistently first on mechanics and damage or healing on bosses, good luck threatening to kick him. Or if the slacker is someones brother, or best friend or girlfriend.

    On the image posted there is a warlock with less damage than the poster, and there are several other dps who aren't playing at their top potential. And if we go through all of the logs, which i can't be arsed, my guess would be that this whole debate is an overeaction. Slacking is human nature, slacking on trash is common to make it such a big problem.

  2. #402
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except even at work, 4 hours=One 15 minute break. Even my guild gives an 8 minute break for 3 hours of raiding. It's just silly to expect someone to sit in one spot for 4 hours, and not have to go to the bathroom or get a drink. There's no reason you should have to hold your bladder for that long.

    The fact that you're comparing raiding to a job is kinda depressing though honestly. It's meant to be fun.
    yes but trash is not break time
    there is a break time and that is not trash
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    My ideas are objectively good

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Our experiences are different. In most raiding guilds I've been part of, we might whined about afkers on trash, but we really tolerated it. And especially as I told in another post, that slacker is carrying the guild by being consistently first on mechanics and damage or healing on bosses, good luck threatening to kick him. Or if the slacker is someones brother, or best friend or girlfriend.

    On the image posted there is a warlock with less damage than the poster, and there are several other dps who aren't playing at their top potential. And if we go through all of the logs, which i can't be arsed, my guess would be that this whole debate is an overeaction. Slacking is human nature, slacking on trash is common to make it such a big problem.
    Goddammit, read the posts.

    Seriously people, having to point out things like the fact that the lock wasn't in raid until Botanist is getting tiresome. I could address the rest of this, but why bother when you're not even paying attention to what has already been said?

  4. #404
    Trash dps is serious business.

  5. #405
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    I've raid-led in casual guilds, semi-hardcore guilds, and been a regular member in both too, for many years. And I actually loathe it when people slack on trash.

    If they do it on the odd occasion, I couldn't really care less, but when it's the same person over, and over, and over again, I kinda start to dislike having that person in my raids. It's not as if it's extremely strenuous, making a 3-4 hour commitment 3-4 times a week, and you have breaks anyway. Why would you want to make trash last longer for the rest of the group just so you can flip your dick? It's just rude and unnecessary.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    On the image posted there is a warlock with less damage than the poster, and there are several other dps who aren't playing at their top potential. And if we go through all of the logs, which i can't be arsed, my guess would be that this whole debate is an overeaction. Slacking is human nature, slacking on trash is common to make it such a big problem.
    Please don't take certain parts of my post out of context in making a retort. I told you, he was given fair warning, ignored it, went out of his way to try and shame his guild, and was shown to be doing far worse than he himself had let on. He was told that he was underperforming and that he had to do something about it. That is the information given to us (and by someone who lied about how much effort he was putting in, so was likely lying about how badly they treated him). He was not kicked for not doing well against trash, he was kicked for being an altogether unpleasant person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Our experiences are different. In most raiding guilds I've been part of, we might whined about afkers on trash, but we really tolerated it. And especially as I told in another post, that slacker is carrying the guild by being consistently first on mechanics and damage or healing on bosses, good luck threatening to kick him. Or if the slacker is someones brother, or best friend or girlfriend.
    That only contributes to the point I made that you cannot judge a guild as not being social simply because their interpretation differs from your (anyone else's) own. My post said that you cannot make a judgment on what type of guild they are based on reaction as guilds have different standards regardless of what they refer to themselves as and he was made aware of those standards prior to being kicked. Nothing you said challenges that and I never made privy my personal raid experience. I spoke in very general terms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  7. #407
    Honestly when you join a guild you agree to follow the rules, If you proceed to ignore said rules you're bringing it on yourself.

    It doesn't matter if others agree, The guild isn't yours nor do you have any influence over it, Their guild their rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  8. #408
    I'm late to the party, but in my opinion, this thread comes down to time vs. enjoyment. Killing trash costs time and is generally not enjoyed. You (the OP) spend some of your raid time doing other things for various reasons. You trade in time doing things you don't enjoy (trash) for time you enjoy. Your goal, consciously or not, is to maximize your enjoyment per time. You text, go to the bathroom or adjust your music.

    Your guild seems to want to maximize their enjoyment by spending as little time on trash as possible. You maximize your enjoyment by "skipping" some trash. The leadership has noticed this dissonance and acted on it by asking you to get in line with their way of doing things. The why doesn't really come into it. I doubt they care.

    At the end of the day, killing trash faster to spend more time on bosses is the most efficient way of raiding. (Or anything else in WoW) It translates into more overall practice, more kills and more loot. These in turn translate into more healing and damage done/prevented which speeds up raiding even more. On Bosses, you can win seconds, maybe even a minute by playing good. Trash can be skipped, chain-pulled and stacked for significantly greater time gains.

    In real life work terms, you fill your workday with more or less useful activities until it is time to go home. You still attend your meetings and do your job, but you could do more. Others get their work done as efficiently as possible so they can go home early (or start the next project). Both methods are efficient in their own way. The difference is that yours benefits you and only you while the other one (and I suspect, your guild's), benefits everyone involved.
    Last edited by Lysiander; 2017-01-29 at 12:42 AM.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Our experiences are different. In most raiding guilds I've been part of, we might whined about afkers on trash, but we really tolerated it. And especially as I told in another post, that slacker is carrying the guild by being consistently first on mechanics and damage or healing on bosses, good luck threatening to kick him. Or if the slacker is someones brother, or best friend or girlfriend.

    On the image posted there is a warlock with less damage than the poster, and there are several other dps who aren't playing at their top potential. And if we go through all of the logs, which i can't be arsed, my guess would be that this whole debate is an overeaction. Slacking is human nature, slacking on trash is common to make it such a big problem.
    The warlock joined for the last 3 bosses. OP was in for the whole run until he was removed from the raid. I do invite everyone, before reacting, to read the actual OP. He stated he did go AFK during trash to do other stuff, repeatedly. That's not slacking, that leeching from the rest of the raid.
    Our guild has not kicked someone for months. So we are definitly not in the habit of doing this. There was going to be a talk with him for sure. But he singlehandidly made sure he would get kicked by starting this topic, for the sole purpose to flame the guild. I invite each and every one of you to find a GM or RL that tolerates that.

    ON TOPIC: To end this nonense once and for all I will point out a couple of things, as this has been dragging on for far to long. The bigger picture here involves around respect.

    ... on bosses I perform as to what is expected of me and in many cases I out perform the other same classes even though they have superior weapon levels etc than me...
    I am the only other Fury warrior in our guild. Look at the logs and see for yourself that although my Ilvl and AL is lower I end up higher on the majority of the boss fights.

    ...But the thing is we don't get a break, were expected to raid solid for the 4 hours we raid, like what do they expect us to do? Have a piss bucket under the desk? We raid 3 hours per evening, 3 times per week. Raidbreak of 10 minutes in the middle.

    ...admitted I do use that time to reply to /w and texts on my phone/change music/bio break stuff like that but their argument is that if I can't perform on trash I don't deserve to be on the bosses/raid <---> I should elaborate on this, I don't go solid afk during all trash. Its literally 30 secs to go for a bio, to reply to a text (if I have one) I still do my job in trash, do the deeps, blow what cds I can etc <---> What I'm saying is that the odd time I have to go for a bio (because we don't get a break) or I get a text (which is important and can't be ignored for 4 hours). Contradictory and as shown on the logs, untrue.

    As stated above. The two of us were the two Fury warriors in the raid. OP was with us for 8 bosses of the 11 we killed that night before he was removed from the raid. I was present for the whole raid.
    Looking at the trash logs: Suntall 351k Dps. Rexxr 134k dps.
    On bosses we generally end up within 40 k diffrence max from each other.
    Pure hard numbers and facts. On top off that. I am streaming our raids so I aswell change music etc WHILE clearing and pulling my weight. No valid excuse there either.

    We advertise ourself as a casual guild. Wich we are. Having a laugh and a joke is what we are all about. Doing "good" progress in the meanwhile is a plus. During one of the past raids a healer fell asleep during the run. Did we flame him? Hell no. We had a good laugh and joke about it on Mumble and he was happily invited into the next raid. That's the atmosphere in here.

    I think that on topic, on how we are as a guild and the decision that was made everything has been said. If anyone feels the need to continue this discussion, I strongly advice you to at least read the first 3 pages before doing so that you at least know what this discussion is all about.
    Last edited by Suntall; 2017-01-29 at 01:28 AM.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntall View Post
    The warlock joined for the last 3 bosses. OP was in for the whole run until he was removed from the raid. I do invite everyone, before reacting, to read the actual OP. He stated he did go AFK during trash to do other stuff, repeatedly. That's not slacking, that leeching from the rest of the raid.
    Our guild has not kicked someone for months. So we are definitly not in the habit of doing this. There was going to be a talk with him for sure. But he singlehandidly made sure he would get kicked by starting this topic, for the sole purpose to flame the guild. I invite each and every one of you to find a GM or RL that tolerates that.

    ON TOPIC: To end this nonense once and for all I will point out a couple of things, as this has been dragging on for far to long. The bigger picture here involves around respect.

    ... on bosses I perform as to what is expected of me and in many cases I out perform the other same classes even though they have superior weapon levels etc than me...
    I am the only other Fury warrior in our guild. Look at the logs and see for yourself that although my Ilvl and AL is lower I end up higher on the majority of the boss fights.

    ...But the thing is we don't get a break, were expected to raid solid for the 4 hours we raid, like what do they expect us to do? Have a piss bucket under the desk? We raid 3 hours per evening, 3 times per week. Raidbreak of 10 minutes in the middle.

    ...admitted I do use that time to reply to /w and texts on my phone/change music/bio break stuff like that but their argument is that if I can't perform on trash I don't deserve to be on the bosses/raid <---> I should elaborate on this, I don't go solid afk during all trash. Its literally 30 secs to go for a bio, to reply to a text (if I have one) I still do my job in trash, do the deeps, blow what cds I can etc <---> What I'm saying is that the odd time I have to go for a bio (because we don't get a break) or I get a text (which is important and can't be ignored for 4 hours). Contradictory and as shown on the logs, untrue.

    As stated above. The two of us where the two Fury warriors in the raid. OP was with us for 8 bosses of the 11 we killed that night before the was removed from the raid. I was present for the whole raid.
    Looking at the trash logs: Suntall 351k Dps. Rexxr 134k dps.
    On bosses we generally end up within 40 k diffrence max from each other.
    Pure hard numbers and facts. On top off that. I am streaming our raids so I aswell change music etc WHILE clearing and pulling my weight. No valid excuse there either.

    We advertise ourself as a casual guild. Wich we are. Having a laugh and a joke is what we are all about. Doing "good" progress in the meanwhile is a plus. During one of the past raids a healer fell asleep during the run. Did we flame him? Hell no. We had a good laugh and joke about it on Mumble and he was happily invited into the next raid. That's the atmosphere in here.

    I think that on topic, on how we are as a guild and the decision that was made everything has been said. If anyone feels the need to continue this discussion, I strongly advice you to at least read the first 3 pages before doing so that you at least know what this discussion is all about.
    I am not defending the original poster or accusing your guild. I am defending the notion of slacking and laid back, which is very common in wow and games.

    I also challenge if you would have kicked him, had he been the raid leader's best friend/brother/girlfriend. or if he was first dps on bosses by a 30-40k margin. Answer honestly, would you? Then we can go towards the point I want to make.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigmits View Post
    So the guild I'm currently (only been in it for 2/3 months)in the officers/gms are threatening to kick me from the guild because apparently I slack on trash, admitted I do use that time to reply to /w and texts on my phone/change music/bio break stuff like that but their argument is that if I can't perform on trash I don't deserve to be on the bosses/raid, on bosses I perform as to what is expected of me and in many cases I out perform the other same classes even though they have superior weapon levels etc than me, when I joined they advertised them selves as a social relaxed guild of a few fellow friends that have been playing together for years, progress is what you'd probably expect from an average guild, 2/3 mythic kills in EN and just venturing into Heroic NH. My question to all of this is do they have a fair point to gkick/bench me for not giving 110% performance on trash mobs or are they just being elitist while thinking they are casual?
    Just join our guild. We are called <AFK Trash>. We seriously don't give a shit. hehe I spend half my time afk while trash is dying. Everyone does it (within reason of course). A lot of us have kids, to include me, if I'm afk during trash, it's because I'm tending to them or something, maybe letting the dog out. Who knows.

    People have real lives. We are a casual / laid back guild.
    Last edited by Demona3; 2017-01-29 at 12:58 AM.

  12. #412
    Herald of the Titans Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Please.
    I'm not defending the OP. I'm defending the notion that raiding is like being in the army where you cannot leave the computer screen during trash. That is simply not how it is for any guild that isn't going for server/world firsts. Aka most guilds.

    The OP says...

    How can you say you're a social relaxed guild which is clearly not doing cutting edge content, yet expect a military like atmosphere?
    Can you read the actual replies from the guild members? They have a 10 minute break. Often when guilds have breaks, if people continually go AFK, they cant take breaks.

    Some guilds, are not like yours where they hold hands and kill a normal boss every hour. They push to progress. If you have to hold someones hand for that, you have to remove them.

    Stay in Off Topic mate. Youre clueless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    I agree with you.

    This is why I might sympathize with the original poster. Raiding is not the army. On laid back guilds, you should get away with playing at a lesser level on trash.
    Noone is saying you have blow cooldowns. Playing at a lesser level is fine.

    Literally doing 10% of the trash is not.

    ...and yes, look at the logs. He was literally AFK for 90% of trash content. That is not acceptable in any guild. Hell, it would probably get you kicked from LFR.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfernalDark View Post
    Trash dps is serious business.
    Another idiot left behind.

  13. #413
    damn them for making you earn your rewards and not carry your ass. damn them to hell!

  14. #414
    I'll say this. Nobody here is saying serious real life issues should not be afk'd for. People are saying afking on trash and slowing the whole raid down to check your Facebook or watch videos isn't on. Which I agree with. I've progressed both casual and hardcore and raid led teams and if someone afk'd on trash to go watch a video and not pull their weight I'd ask them why they felt the need to do it.

    Point is you come to a raid then pull your weight unless you need to leave for a serious issue. Watching the newest Taylor Swift video isn't serious.

  15. #415
    Deleted
    I am actually surprised this wasn't just a troll post because of how out of touch OP was.

  16. #416
    Field Marshal Suntall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    I am not defending the original poster or accusing your guild. I am defending the notion of slacking and laid back, which is very common in wow and games.

    I also challenge if you would have kicked him, had he been the raid leader's best friend/brother/girlfriend. or if he was first dps on bosses by a 30-40k margin. Answer honestly, would you? Then we can go towards the point I want to make.
    Going to break up my answer in 2 points. Reprimand someone who is top dps by 30 to 40 k margin on bosses and leeches on trash? If it's up to me, yes. Cause if you tolerate that you lose far more other raiders who will get fed up with this. Also. OP was kicked from the guild because of this post. Not because of the leeching. He was told to stop doing that. After that he felt the need to make this post. That resulted in the actual kick. Not his behaviour. Try finding a GM that will tolerate a post like this.
    I know that he said he was told he would be guildkicked, but I think we also pointed out numerous times that his post and the answers contain lies.

    As to wether someone would be kicked if it was a relative of the GM. That would offcourse be more delicate, but even then my answer would be yes. Noone stands above the guild. If you tolerate that, you kill off a guild eventually. Since this is probably not the answer that you would like, and most likely will be called not honest I can insure you that is how I reason. But this is very far from the OP. I do agree with you that a lot of people would do something diffrent than I would do though.
    Last edited by Suntall; 2017-01-29 at 01:26 AM.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntall View Post
    Also. OP was kicked from the guild because of this post. Not because of the leeching. He was told to stop doing that. After that he felt the need to make this post. That resulted in the actual kick. Not his behaviour. Try finding a GM that will tolerate a post like this.
    I know that he said he was told he would be guildkicked, but I think we also pointed out numerous times that his post and the answers contain lies.
    .
    Totally going to agree with you here. I'll even say that, even if your guild was doing everything he claimed you were,(which, let me be clear, I don't believe any of it), he should still be gkicked. You don't publicly air out your "dirty laundry". If he had an issue...he should have gone to an officer.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntall View Post
    Going to break up my answer in 2 points. Reprimand someone who is top dps by 30 to 40 k margin on bosses and leeches on trash? If it's up to me, yes. Cause if you tolerate that you lose far more other raiders who will get fed up with this. Also. OP was kicked from the guild because of this post. Not because of the leeching. He was told to stop doing that. After that he felt the need to make this post. That resulted in the actual kick. Not his behaviour. Try finding a GM that will tolerate a post like this.
    I know that he said he was told he would be guildkicked, but I think we also pointed out numerous times that his post and the answers contain lies.

    As to wether someone would be kicked if it was a relative of the GM. That would offcourse be more delicate, but even then my answer would be yes. Noone stands above the guild. If you tolerate that, you kill off a guild eventually. Since this is probably not the answer that you would like, and most likely will be called not honest I can insure you that is how I reason. But this is very far from the OP. I do agree with you that a lot off people would do something than I would.
    we don't disagree and there is no answer i like or dislike.

    I understand why you kicked him. I most likely would have as well. But generalizing and broad speaking and excluding other details, and examining just "slacking on trash" is not a strong case to be upset about. I guess my objection is towards those who claim raiding, including trash, is a sacred and righteous thing to do. No it's not. It's just a game kinda.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    we don't disagree and there is no answer i like or dislike.

    I understand why you kicked him. I most likely would have as well. But generalizing and broad speaking and excluding other details, and examining just "slacking on trash" is not a strong case to be upset about. I guess my objection is towards those who claim raiding, including trash, is a sacred and righteous thing to do. No it's not. It's just a game kinda.
    It's general behaviour that got on the rest of the guilds nerves, with this post as a sad cataclyst and end to it. I feel sad about all of this actually. Slacking on trash is, although I don't do it (although there is a little less focus ofc, I'm not mother Theresa ), very broadspread and "tolerated" unless you run in a top end raiding guild pushing for server/world first. It's actual leeching that pissed off a lot of people.

    As to it all just being a game. We definitly agree on that I have two little boys, and if they would wake up mid raid I'm GOTTA GO! And noone would make a problem of that. RL over WoW. Every time.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    we don't disagree and there is no answer i like or dislike.

    I understand why you kicked him. I most likely would have as well. But generalizing and broad speaking and excluding other details, and examining just "slacking on trash" is not a strong case to be upset about. I guess my objection is towards those who claim raiding, including trash, is a sacred and righteous thing to do. No it's not. It's just a game kinda.
    To be honest, that's more how you perceived others people opijnion in the subject rather than they considering trash time/raid sacred. Actual leeching is not fine and it's what most people talked about. I am one of those who actually like to play the game so i play my best on trash too (blow cooldowns, etc), i don't expect everyone to be the same, but sure as hell i dislike people who will just go AFK to watch a movie, text, whatever while we are cleaning, and i do think it's reasonable to attempt to correct that behaviour in a social enviroment such as raids if the majority of the guild does not condone leeching.
    Last edited by mmocc9cfd5da3c; 2017-01-29 at 01:47 AM.

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