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  1. #1
    Deleted

    M+ should have been dungeon crawling

    Not crack speed running and boosting for chests.
    Why does everything have to be more more more and fast fast fast in wow?
    Where's the content for people who want to stop and smell the roses and enjoy and get to know a dungeon?
    Logging in for a night could be doing 1 dungeon instead of doing 10.

  2. #2
    I really don't like the timers either; but according to people if there were no timers groups would pull trash 10 minutes at a time with heroism or something, so timers are necessary.

  3. #3
    The timer isn't the best part of the system, however as its right now, its also a necessity. Not sure I ever read a good idea to control progression without a time component of some sort, so those idiot strategies like waiting out every single long cooldown for every single pull is not the way to progress further.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Venarissa View Post
    I really don't like the timers either; but according to people if there were no timers groups would pull trash 10 minutes at a time with heroism or something, so timers are necessary.
    This is 100% what would happen. If you really need that 15 for the week and you aren't geared enough to reliably finish it (and it's fortified and not tyrannical) you could just BL every big trash pull and get through the place. If it was like this and you could keep progressing then you'd have undergeared or lesser skilled players doing this from ranks 12-15 and being miserable and blaming Blizzard for forcing them to finish a 15 for the weekly cap.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Venarissa View Post
    I really don't like the timers either; but according to people if there were no timers groups would pull trash 10 minutes at a time with heroism or something, so timers are necessary.
    or most insanely geared people will pull it like they do now?

    why wait for heroism every pull lol.

    but i quite like the idea of a never ending dungeon,

    like a purgatory type dungeon,

    where each floor gets harder and harder than the last, no save points or ports, go until you drop, depending on the amount of floors cleared rewards a chest
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Venarissa View Post
    I really don't like the timers either; but according to people if there were no timers groups would pull trash 10 minutes at a time with heroism or something, so timers are necessary.
    People would. until they hit either the reward cap, gametime cap or just cant do the bosses anymore. This is pretty much how almost anything in the game works. (like i have done that myself, wait 10mins between pulls on +10 tyranical CoS between pulls just to get the weekly chest, back when it was just introduced)

    I think the timers are fine, they are reasonable for the most part. it could work without timers if they put diminishing returns on the rewards, more then there already are, but nobody would like that either.

    What the OP wants sounds more like 5 man raiding then dungeons, design wise.

    having said all that, i absolutely loved the large dungeons in vanilla, with no maps and large enough that you could get lost. like original strat/scholo/sunken temple/brd. But i'm not sure how you could bring those back in todays wow.
    Last edited by mmoc982b0e8df8; 2017-01-30 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    This is 100% what would happen. If you really need that 15 for the week and you aren't geared enough to reliably finish it (and it's fortified and not tyrannical) you could just BL every big trash pull and get through the place. If it was like this and you could keep progressing then you'd have undergeared or lesser skilled players doing this from ranks 12-15 and being miserable and blaming Blizzard for forcing them to finish a 15 for the weekly cap.
    what if they limited it to 1 bloodlust per dungeon? or just no bloodlust at all. Would people wait on potion cooldowns for each pull?

    Without a timer groups could feasibly reach as high a level key as they could handle, until tanks/healers couldn't deal with the damage or it takes dps too long to kill bosses. You also wouldn't have to worry about people needing a break of going afk without a timer, you could pull comfortably instead of having to gogogogo, you wouldn't have to worry about grabbing just the right amount of mobs and which mobs are skippable. To me this sounds much more enjoyable, but to each their own.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Venarissa View Post
    what if they limited it to 1 bloodlust per dungeon? or just no bloodlust at all. Would people wait on potion cooldowns for each pull?

    Without a timer groups could feasibly reach as high a level key as they could handle, until tanks/healers couldn't deal with the damage or it takes dps too long to kill bosses. You also wouldn't have to worry about people needing a break of going afk without a timer, you could pull comfortably instead of having to gogogogo, you wouldn't have to worry about grabbing just the right amount of mobs and which mobs are skippable. To me this sounds much more enjoyable, but to each their own.
    Yes, they would wait for potion CDs(as in actually use 2 pots per pull, rather than just a prepot) and whatever other CDs.
    Tradushuffle
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Yes, they would wait for potion CDs(as in actually use 2 pots per pull, rather than just a prepot) and whatever other CDs.
    And what if you were limited to one potion per dungeon?

  10. #10
    I am Murloc!
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    If you want the timer to matter less just push higher dungeons to the point where you have to go slow. People fall into this trap of thinking that M+ is solely about speed, when all they are looking at are keys they can easily do. When you can 'easily' do keys it becomes about smashing through them for quick and easy rewards.

    Timer really doesn't matter when you start hitting the upper limits of what you're group can physically do. Trust me, as long as your DPS is decent, and your tank isn't falling over you can do one pack at a time and meet the 'timer'. There is nothing stopping people from doing this, and this is exactly how I have to approach dungeons when I do most 18-19 dungeons right now.

    If timers didn't exist you would just have people save CDs for packs, or just CC everything to take all the challenge out. The only difficulty would be in the bosses or mobs that can't be CCd at that point, to which they either kill you through shear damage or you don't have enough damage to physically kill the boss.

    Timers are a necessary evil. Again, as said if you want to learn the dungeon at a slow pace just brick your key and take your time. You're still going to get loot at the end even if it's depleted.

    To me the design of old dungeons in TBC was deplorable, and awful. It was simply kite everything or bring enough CC, because all the mobs did in the dungeon was a massive amount of physical damage that killed non-tanks (or tanks) pretty quickly. The pacing was slow and there was nothing mechanically interesting about the majority of the dungeons. The mechanic was basically 'hurr durr' I hit really hard, you better CC a lot of us or get overwhelmed. That's essentially what starts happening at really high M+ right now, if you actually push to what you gear barely allows you to do. The difference is that there are far more mechanics involved in dungeon design than there was in the past, and increasingly so with each expansion.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Not crack speed running and boosting for chests.
    Why does everything have to be more more more and fast fast fast in wow?
    Where's the content for people who want to stop and smell the roses and enjoy and get to know a dungeon?
    Logging in for a night could be doing 1 dungeon instead of doing 10.
    Well it can be like that if you want to. The content is right there.
    Completing the dungeon still gives you a loot chest, even if you fail the timer. So nothing really forces you to speed run it.

    My guild often runs the higher keys like that - just for fun, using CC and alternative, "slow" tactics - we deliberately ignore the timer and just go in "for the challenge" and learning the place. You can't really push for full wtfbbq-speed in the higher dungeons anyway. You got to be careful with pulls. Once we're confident we know the place and the effect of the current affixes, we try the timer. Sometimes we never do.

    You just need to find like-minded people. Expecting group finder PUGs to conform to something like that might be a bit naive.
    Last edited by mmoc0e47cbaaf5; 2017-01-30 at 09:09 AM.

  12. #12
    one dungeon entrance ....


    1. random layout
    2. each pack random affixes
    3. random bossess
    4. random loot
    5. more randomness because random is fun
    6. hardcore mode, not ress.




    7. might as well rename it world of diablo.
    "The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound.
    That's why so many people look smart until they start talking."

    FC-0404-6893-4293 Fire safari Larvesta/Growlithe/Braixen IGN: X Archimand, Y Shina.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Not crack speed running and boosting for chests.
    Why does everything have to be more more more and fast fast fast in wow?
    Where's the content for people who want to stop and smell the roses and enjoy and get to know a dungeon?
    Logging in for a night could be doing 1 dungeon instead of doing 10.
    Agreed, the palace of the dead in FFXIV is über fun at all levels.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    And what if you were limited to one potion per dungeon?
    Then they'd still wait for CDs. Can we stop asking pointless questions about hypothetical stupid situations?
    Tradushuffle
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  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    The fast pace is part of what I enjoy. Such an alternative to raiding. No sitting in front of every boss to set up markers and discuss assignments, just a quick discussion at entrance to make sure everyone is on the same page, then GO! Committing for 30 minutes at a time is easier than committing for 3-4 hours at a time. And if you feel like going longer, there's always "What did your key turn into?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't get me wrong; I enjoy raiding too, but it's nice to have the change of pace.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    And what if you were limited to one potion per dungeon?
    Then what's the point? The point of having pots come off CD is so you can use them multiple times in a dungeon. Same with bloodlust etc. It would completely ruin an aspect of the mythic plus scene. Bloodlust is pretty much considered mandatory to have as well.

    Even if you removed everything you'd have people waiting around for their 3 min cds to come back up and stuff like that. AoE stuns all off CD, dps cds all off CD all of that jazz. It would be a snooze fest. The second you realize you need to start taking away our cool abilities to make your idea feasible then you know it's a bad idea in a video game.

  17. #17
    It can be @op, you do realise you can tackle a M+15 or something and complete it in 3 hours via brain not brawn.

    You get a +1 chest if you just complete it.

    M+ system makes it your choice.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Then what's the point? The point of having pots come off CD is so you can use them multiple times in a dungeon. Same with bloodlust etc. It would completely ruin an aspect of the mythic plus scene. Bloodlust is pretty much considered mandatory to have as well.

    Even if you removed everything you'd have people waiting around for their 3 min cds to come back up and stuff like that. AoE stuns all off CD, dps cds all off CD all of that jazz. It would be a snooze fest. The second you realize you need to start taking away our cool abilities to make your idea feasible then you know it's a bad idea in a video game.
    Actually I don't think it's that big of a deal. If people want to wait for CDs after every trash pack they should be able to do so. Sure the dungeon will take a lot longer than it has to but you'll wipe less.

  19. #19
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    If you want that, go do +15, or +20 or something. Low level M+ is for speed running

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    Actually I don't think it's that big of a deal. If people want to wait for CDs after every trash pack they should be able to do so. Sure the dungeon will take a lot longer than it has to but you'll wipe less.
    Well you can do that right now. The only difference is that your key gets depleted because you couldn't finish the dungeon in time which makes sense. Some sense of progression keeps people interested but making the progression part "Lust, wait 10m so you can lust again * 10" will only make people hate the system more. It has issues as it is right now with the AP it rewards and the loot grind it encourages; making the system a bigger chore will only cause more people not to take part at all.

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