Page 10 of 20 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Avatar: Momoco
    Posts
    15,160
    The class/job system definitely felt like something that could've been expanded upon but didn't. The difference still is there though that classes can use many different cross class abilities compared to jobs, not really useful outside of certain fringe cases but it's there. What would work better is a system like PSO2 where skills and passives get inherited for sub classes but... the game was built with that in mind, and it would definitely not fit in FFXIV without some major rework.

    It's really too late to remove the class/job system for the existing one, and kind of pointless to. Not like it changes much in the end.

  2. #182
    I'll say one thing they need to do for low level revamps. Let tanks have it a bit easier. Give Paladins Shield Oath at 30, Give Gladiator and Marauder a weaker version of Defiance and Shield Oath or something because low level Gladiator is fucking horrible to play. I just really don't think Flash and Overpower are enough imo.

  3. #183
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Which is the main reason it strikes me as being unnessacary. Functionally, a Thaumaturge is identical to a Black Mage in all but name. Similarly with Conjourer and the White Mage etc etc. Why not just let you start as a Level 1 Black Mage and lets just call a Horse a Horse, shall we? Getting to play those iconic FF jobs in an MMO setting does have its appeal, especially to fans of the series, so just let them pick the one they want from the outset. It changes quite literally nothing about the play experience.

    There are plenty of ways to keep the feeling of having progressed within the story. For instance, you could start off as an Initiate doing menial tasks, then move up to an Apprentice and so on. You already get those big progress moments in the form of class quests anyway, so it's not as if those would be stripped away.
    I guess the original idea was similar to what they did with the Arcanist(?), where you'd branch of to either a healer or DD at job change.
    This is pretty common in JRPGs and I think it's awesome. Not sure why they didn't do a similar thing for all the other jobs/classes.

    It's one of the reasons why I played RO back in the day... I don't know what's causing it, but it feels amazing to have a choice somewhere in the middle of the game.
    Do I advance to a Knight? Or do I pick Crusader, etc etc.

  4. #184
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Lookout
    Posts
    20,979
    Forgive me for not going through this thread to search for this Answer, but figured I'd just ask straight up.

    I've been playing a ton of TESO lately and enjoy it thoroughly because of their full controller support and UI. I find it just made the game infinitely better.
    I enjoyed FF14 years ago when I played for most part except for the Combat which I felt wasn't the best at the time.
    I'm keen to give the game a go again but was curious if it is specifically required to use a PS4 controller or if my Xbox360 Con. for Windows would work fine without any need for further modification of it's settings.


    Cheers

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    I'll say one thing they need to do for low level revamps. Let tanks have it a bit easier. Give Paladins Shield Oath at 30, Give Gladiator and Marauder a weaker version of Defiance and Shield Oath or something because low level Gladiator is fucking horrible to play. I just really don't think Flash and Overpower are enough imo.
    I remember this being one of my main dislikes of low level duties. I would have all these great tanking abilities and then lose them all in lower level content. was always jarring. Like I couldn't Imagine doing Timewalker Dungeons in WoW and losing 5 talents.

  5. #185
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    1,830
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    I'll say one thing they need to do for low level revamps. Let tanks have it a bit easier. Give Paladins Shield Oath at 30, Give Gladiator and Marauder a weaker version of Defiance and Shield Oath or something because low level Gladiator is fucking horrible to play. I just really don't think Flash and Overpower are enough imo.
    The only way I managed to make low level Gladiator barable was cross classing into Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Straight Shot and just DPS cheesing during Flight vs Fight. >.> Even then low level Gladiator was a very unpleasant experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    High elf fans are basically flat-earth society of warcraft lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Alleria Windrunner View Post
    I AM the victim.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    I'll say one thing they need to do for low level revamps. Let tanks have it a bit easier. Give Paladins Shield Oath at 30, Give Gladiator and Marauder a weaker version of Defiance and Shield Oath or something because low level Gladiator is fucking horrible to play. I just really don't think Flash and Overpower are enough imo.
    Don't touch my "Rage of Halone spam until lvl 54" plz, that's the best experience of my life.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    It's one of the reasons why I played RO back in the day... I don't know what's causing it, but it feels amazing to have a choice somewhere in the middle of the game.
    Do I advance to a Knight? Or do I pick Crusader, etc etc.
    I think that would be a simply awful idea for an MMO. Imagine spending 30 hours playing, getting to level 50, then choosing to advance as a Knight and hating it and having to reroll from scratch. At that point as a player, I think I'd simply put the game down for good. You want people to make those kinds of choices about their play at the begining, so they can quickly change their character if they find it doesn't suit them. It's not a big deal for FF14 due to how it's Jobs work, but for most traditional MMO's it would be a bad move in this day and age.

    Personally, I just find the whole Job's at 30 thing both strange and jarring. It changes practically nothing about your character, it simply serves as a way for you to continue to progress. There have been times I've forgotten to even equip the Soul Crystal and carried on without realising it. Oops! On that note, I would simply love to be able to change classes by just equipping the Soul Crystal. It's a very easy QoL improvement to make

    The Arcanist is the odd one out here, having access to two jobs. But since you can freely switch between Scholar and Summoner it's not really a choice at all, you get both anyway. It's more of a respec than it is a complete class change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    I'll say one thing they need to do for low level revamps. Let tanks have it a bit easier. Give Paladins Shield Oath at 30, Give Gladiator and Marauder a weaker version of Defiance and Shield Oath or something because low level Gladiator is fucking horrible to play. I just really don't think Flash and Overpower are enough imo.
    I'm not sure why they don't just give them Defiance and Shield Oath at level 15. Makes sense getting your Tanking Stance before you head off to do your first dungeon, Healers can get Cleric Stance so they're all set, and DPS have most of their basic kit assembled already. Tanks are the odd ones out here. I'm even more puzzled by the fact that you need to level Gladiator to 22 at least if you plan on tanking at all, Provoke is one of the key tools in any tanks box.

    While we're on the subject, having Cleric Stance be an actual stance where it changed your main hotbar would be lovely. Not entirely combat related, but it would free up plenty of hotbar space to add some new abilities without overloading the player.

  8. #188
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I think that would be a simply awful idea for an MMO. Imagine spending 30 hours playing, getting to level 50, then choosing to advance as a Knight and hating it and having to reroll from scratch. At that point as a player, I think I'd simply put the game down for good. You want people to make those kinds of choices about their play at the begining, so they can quickly change their character if they find it doesn't suit them. It's not a big deal for FF14 due to how it's Jobs work, but for most traditional MMO's it would be a bad move in this day and age.

    Personally, I just find the whole Job's at 30 thing both strange and jarring. It changes practically nothing about your character, it simply serves as a way for you to continue to progress. There have been times I've forgotten to even equip the Soul Crystal and carried on without realising it. Oops! On that note, I would simply love to be able to change classes by just equipping the Soul Crystal. It's a very easy QoL improvement to make

    But how is that any different from getting to max level and seeing that your rotation is all fucked up (BLM).
    I mean, I ended up hating my BLM in Heavensward. So I had to put him down and leveled a LNC/DRG from scratch, but only after I tried BRD, which ended up too complex for my liking too because the stance dancing and balancing wasn't done properly early on.


    Getting the grip of it and every essential part of your rotation from the very first minute of the game is dangerous in itself.

    For example, GW2 suffers from it.
    Over the course of your leveling experience, all you can change/choose are a few talents that have a 1-3m cooldown.
    The weapon skills basically never change after the first 5 levels.
    At that point, you ask yourself - why do I even have to level in the first place.

    With the job/class system, you have something to look forward to.
    As for it being a bad idea in this day and age, I don't know. Crowfall is basically doing that and it's being hyped (partly because of said system)

    And just for the record, you don't get both Scholar and Summoner... at least.. I think. I have a max level Scholar, but my Summoner is still at 30 afaik. All you get to skip is the class part, but not the job.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2017-01-30 at 12:30 AM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    And just for the record, you don't get both Scholar and Summoner... at least.. I think. I have a max level Scholar, but my Summoner is still at 30 afaik. All you get to skip is the class part, but not the job.
    No, you have a lvl 60 Summoner, you just haven't done all the job quests to unlock the skills.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Getting the grip of it and every essential part of your rotation from the very first minute of the game is dangerous in itself.
    -Snip-

    And just for the record, you don't get both Scholar and Summoner... at least.. I think. I have a max level Scholar, but my Summoner is still at 30 afaik. All you get to skip is the class part, but not the job.
    You may dislike how your Black Mage plays out at 60, however you are introduced to the important mechanics, blowing all your MP with Astral Fire then recovering it with Ice, at level 2. You get introduced to positional attacks and your combos very early on as both a Lancer and a Monk. You can decide quickly if they're going to be something you'd enjoy or not, allowing you to make a more informed decision with a minimal time investment.

    I would disagree that having all your options available at your disposal immediately is dangerous. If the challenge is mastery of those mechanics then you need to be clear on what they are as early as possible. Games that do it, such as Fighting games, are based on your personal progression as a player, not your progression in game as a character. MMO's have flipped this on it's head by being Character progressed at the begining, then becoming Player progressed at the end.

    Leveling, as a whole, is rather outdated in MMO's too. If it was intended as a lengthy tutorial, it misses the mark when they completely change your rotation every 5-10 levels. Until the max level, there is never a point at which the player has all of their options to work with and can get to grips with their class properly. People being bad in pugs is pretty much a universal complaint across pretty much every MMO ever, and this is why. They've spent the last 59 levels reinforcing bad playing habits and need to both unlearn them and relearn their class from scratch at 60.

    An MMO like GW 2 is much easier to pick up and play correctly because you've had lots of time to get comfortable with your entire skill set and have spent 50 levels reinforcing the correct play habits for your class. Fighting games on the other hand just frontload everything and it ends up with you just button bashing and hoping for the best - Ironically enough, they could actually benefit from borrowing some of the MMO leveling system to ease players into the game. That however is a discussion for another time.

    For what it's worth, I leveled as a Summoner, but switched to a Scholar for the faster Dungeon queues. I've been swapping back and forth at 60 to get things done too. Both are tied to your Arcanist level, so you can just swap your weapon and off you go. Make sure you have a Summoner book, they're different from the Scholar ones! You do still need to do both the Scholar and Summoner quests however.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    You may dislike how your Black Mage plays out at 60, however you are introduced to the important mechanics, blowing all your MP with Astral Fire then recovering it with Ice, at level 2. You get introduced to positional attacks and your combos very early on as both a Lancer and a Monk. You can decide quickly if they're going to be something you'd enjoy or not, allowing you to make a more informed decision with a minimal time investment.

    I would disagree that having all your options available at your disposal immediately is dangerous. If the challenge is mastery of those mechanics then you need to be clear on what they are as early as possible. Games that do it, such as Fighting games, are based on your personal progression as a player, not your progression in game as a character. MMO's have flipped this on it's head by being Character progressed at the begining, then becoming Player progressed at the end.

    Leveling, as a whole, is rather outdated in MMO's too. If it was intended as a lengthy tutorial, it misses the mark when they completely change your rotation every 5-10 levels. Until the max level, there is never a point at which the player has all of their options to work with and can get to grips with their class properly. People being bad in pugs is pretty much a universal complaint across pretty much every MMO ever, and this is why. They've spent the last 59 levels reinforcing bad playing habits and need to both unlearn them and relearn their class from scratch at 60.

    An MMO like GW 2 is much easier to pick up and play correctly because you've had lots of time to get comfortable with your entire skill set and have spent 50 levels reinforcing the correct play habits for your class. Fighting games on the other hand just frontload everything and it ends up with you just button bashing and hoping for the best - Ironically enough, they could actually benefit from borrowing some of the MMO leveling system to ease players into the game. That however is a discussion for another time.

    For what it's worth, I leveled as a Summoner, but switched to a Scholar for the faster Dungeon queues. I've been swapping back and forth at 60 to get things done too. Both are tied to your Arcanist level, so you can just swap your weapon and off you go. Make sure you have a Summoner book, they're different from the Scholar ones! You do still need to do both the Scholar and Summoner quests however.
    Depends on how you enjoy your game. I dislike GW2 specifically because I feel no sense of progression of my character, I play the exact same way at max level as I did at level 2. I have no new abilities, mechanics, or change in character power to look forward to for spending countless hours on that character. That feeling of character progression is what makes most of the really successful MMOs so successful. It's that carrot that gets dangled in front of the player to want to raid, PvP, level etc...

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Depends on how you enjoy your game. I dislike GW2 specifically because I feel no sense of progression of my character, I play the exact same way at max level as I did at level 2. I have no new abilities, mechanics, or change in character power to look forward to for spending countless hours on that character. That feeling of character progression is what makes most of the really successful MMOs so successful. It's that carrot that gets dangled in front of the player to want to raid, PvP, level etc...
    Hmm...that's because GW2 is based much more on personal skill than on progression of the character. Although, have you played GW2 since they added masteries? There's a bit more character progression in there now than before.

  13. #193
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    No, you have a lvl 60 Summoner, you just haven't done all the job quests to unlock the skills.
    Why did nobody tell me, oh noeeees.
    Something stopped me from "leveling" (or using) the Summoner stone. Maybe I was just to lazy to do the job quests because they require me to do dungeons/trials or somethings? I don't know.

    Summoner DPS is so sick. I always wanted to play one but never got around to do it.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2017-01-30 at 10:32 AM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Depends on how you enjoy your game. I dislike GW2 specifically because I feel no sense of progression of my character, I play the exact same way at max level as I did at level 2. I have no new abilities, mechanics, or change in character power to look forward to for spending countless hours on that character. That feeling of character progression is what makes most of the really successful MMOs so successful. It's that carrot that gets dangled in front of the player to want to raid, PvP, level etc...
    The problem I have with this is that your character progression comes to a swift halt when you hit max level in most MMO's anyway. Once you've gotten yourself geared up the only way to really see any improvements is if you improve yourself as a player. You may get the occasional upgrade in there along the way too of course, but by and large the most significant improvements are going to be because you were better at your rotation, or better at the boss fight or managed your cooldowns better.

    The sooner you unlock access to your characters full range of abilities, the more time the player has to get comfortable with them. By extension, that then allows the designers to create more challenging content for those players, safe in the knowledge that by the time the player is a high enough level to gain access to it they've had lots of time to familiarise themselves with how their class works and how their skills work together.

    I mentioned it in my previous post, but this flipping of the games progression at max level is why your pug group probably sucks! (Except for you, of course. You're the only good player in it )

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I think that would be a simply awful idea for an MMO. Imagine spending 30 hours playing, getting to level 50, then choosing to advance as a Knight and hating it and having to reroll from scratch.
    Sounds like someone got into mmorpgs with the post WoW generation and didn't try any eastern mmorpgs made before that, because that shit was the norm in even the most entry level kid focused games like Maplestory.
    Last edited by dope_danny; 2017-01-30 at 12:25 PM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Why did nobody tell me, oh noeeees.
    Something stopped me from "leveling" (or using) the Summoner stone. Maybe I was just to lazy to do the job quests because they require me to do dungeons/trials or somethings? I don't know.

    Summoner DPS is so sick. I always wanted to play one but never got around to do it.
    Really not hard at all. The SCH job quests were harder cos you were gimped from using your pet and not having a party roster for the people you were supposed to be keeping alive(looking at you, lvl 60 quest...)

    Go snag yourself a 200 weapon for some seals and/or some Gil-bought vendor gear, you'll burn through just fine.

  17. #197
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    11,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Depends on how you enjoy your game. I dislike GW2 specifically because I feel no sense of progression of my character, I play the exact same way at max level as I did at level 2. I have no new abilities, mechanics, or change in character power to look forward to for spending countless hours on that character. That feeling of character progression is what makes most of the really successful MMOs so successful. It's that carrot that gets dangled in front of the player to want to raid, PvP, level etc...
    They even kinda tried to give it one while leveling. If you look it up they changed how you get weapon skills abd even skill points. They made it so you unlock weapon skill slots as you level and get skill points every several levels(as well as gear among other things) basically meaning you get a progression esque system.

    Oh and enough points from leveling to fill up every bar abd slot but does not give enough to activate the new skills. Oh then they added an AA system called mastery. Whiiiich pretty much means GRIND LIKE NO tomorrow.

    And raids..essentially they realized other mmo's were better overall abd abandoned their niche instead of trying to become a better game

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The problem I have with this is that your character progression comes to a swift halt when you hit max level in most MMO's anyway. Once you've gotten yourself geared up the only way to really see any improvements is if you improve yourself as a player. You may get the occasional upgrade in there along the way too of course, but by and large the most significant improvements are going to be because you were better at your rotation, or better at the boss fight or managed your cooldowns better.

    The sooner you unlock access to your characters full range of abilities, the more time the player has to get comfortable with them. By extension, that then allows the designers to create more challenging content for those players, safe in the knowledge that by the time the player is a high enough level to gain access to it they've had lots of time to familiarise themselves with how their class works and how their skills work together.

    I mentioned it in my previous post, but this flipping of the games progression at max level is why your pug group probably sucks! (Except for you, of course. You're the only good player in it )
    Again, it kind of depends on the purpose for playing the game. I agree with you on the personal skill going up the longer you play with your full toolkit, but the mindset surrounding a mindful increase in player skill is a little different than those wanting to enjoy the progression. With games like FFXIV and WoW you get both. You get the progression as you level, and once you hit level cap you get the player skill increase by playing more often and doing raids etc...

    PuGs are always a crapps shoot, you don't really know what you're going to get, and yes sometimes you are the only competent one in the group and sometimes it's the opposite. But that's why they have things like Party Finder and Free Companies, so you can find a group of like minded, and skilled, people to play with.

    Also, your character progression doesn't come to a halt at end game, though it does slow down. It becomes more paced and purposeful, and only comes with a time investment and/ or an increase or reinforcement in player skill in the form of difficult content that drops higher level gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    They even kinda tried to give it one while leveling. If you look it up they changed how you get weapon skills abd even skill points. They made it so you unlock weapon skill slots as you level and get skill points every several levels(as well as gear among other things) basically meaning you get a progression esque system.

    Oh and enough points from leveling to fill up every bar abd slot but does not give enough to activate the new skills. Oh then they added an AA system called mastery. Whiiiich pretty much means GRIND LIKE NO tomorrow.

    And raids..essentially they realized other mmo's were better overall abd abandoned their niche instead of trying to become a better game
    I haven't played GW2 since before the Heart of Thorns expansion, just had no interest. It was fun when I played up to like level 30 as a Thief, but the lack of real character progression feel, the lack of clearly defined party roles at the time, and that grindy feeling of trying to find that next heart to fill, or event to complete, or story quest to do for xp was just not as compelling as other games out there.

  19. #199
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    11,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Again, it kind of depends on the purpose for playing the game. I agree with you on the personal skill going up the longer you play with your full toolkit, but the mindset surrounding a mindful increase in player skill is a little different than those wanting to enjoy the progression. With games like FFXIV and WoW you get both. You get the progression as you level, and once you hit level cap you get the player skill increase by playing more often and doing raids etc...

    PuGs are always a crapps shoot, you don't really know what you're going to get, and yes sometimes you are the only competent one in the group and sometimes it's the opposite. But that's why they have things like Party Finder and Free Companies, so you can find a group of like minded, and skilled, people to play with.

    Also, your character progression doesn't come to a halt at end game, though it does slow down. It becomes more paced and purposeful, and only comes with a time investment and/ or an increase or reinforcement in player skill in the form of difficult content that drops higher level gear.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I haven't played GW2 since before the Heart of Thorns expansion, just had no interest. It was fun when I played up to like level 30 as a Thief, but the lack of real character progression feel, the lack of clearly defined party roles at the time, and that grindy feeling of trying to find that next heart to fill, or event to complete, or story quest to do for xp was just not as compelling as other games out there.
    Yeeeah the grind was knocked up to 20 the game added raids annnd frankly pseudo roles in tanks and other stuff. Honestly hot nearly killed the game. And I rarely play it at all like actually play it. Also I feel the story is sub par

  20. #200
    On the GW2 side note, it's obvious (and has been stated by Arenanet) that GW2 was at one point designed without leveling in mind, and given how the game is structured and plays, it seems fairly obvious, if you've played it for even a bit. I would've liked to seen that happen, funny enough. GW1 was about as close to being level-less as you could get back in the day.

    That said, I'm one of many who quit not long into HoT. I know they've added a bunch of stuff to the game (which I may get back to at some point, were I to get bored with Eorzea). For the past year, all I've done is log in on my oldest characters to collect anniversary rewards (dem dyes, yo).

    On a more FF14-specific note: Not sure if it's been mentioned or not, but give Cleric Stance the same 5% accuracy bonus that tank stances get, assuming accuracy will remain in-game come Stormblood. Probably easier to simply do that (add accuracy to CS) than it would be to scrap a stat outright. Could be the next stepping stone to getting rid of accuracy. WoW getting rid of hit + expertise was a long-needed change. Never made sense to me that as I leveled up (which in most games means you get more powerful), I would find it harder and harder to actually hit things.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •