End Boss 7.3

[TheFirstOnes]

Old gods don't have avatars. Infact, the old gods ARE avatar's/creations of the Void Lords....

Also, The cataclysm did NOT start cause of N'zoth, or deathwing. It started with the old gods dying in general. The Old god's deaths disbalanced the elements, created a nightmare on azeroth, and shook up both N'zoths bindings, as well as deathwings...

[Qualia]

^ I wouldn't completely rule out Deathwing being the cause of the Element Invasion, though (that's why I only mentioned the earthquakes in my previous post), as I remember it only happened in the patch right before Cataclysm. Earthquakes started happening in 3.3 (together with the start of ICC), and Element Invasion + earthquakes intensifies in 4.0.1.

[Caerule]

I'd be very skeptical to take Deathwing's (badass) boast literal.

Ugh, that's not what it means, or what I mean. As he says that, he is bashing his head against the stones. You see Deathwing trashing around in pain, and you see it causing disasters, splitting open the Barrens. It's Deathwing doing that, because he is the corrupted Earthwarder, lashing out in pain.

And Deathwing's armor was put on in pieces. You see each piece put on, still hot from forging. I'd say it could certainly have taken a month to forge all those pieces of that gigantic armor. They put each scalding piece on as it finishes.

And killing the Old Gods strengthens those that remain. As the priest dagger goes into this as well. N'Zoth used to be the weakest. But in the end, it was always going to be one Old God left, that will get to devour Azeroth. The Old Gods are parasites in competition. With the death of the others, he gets the entire host to himself. And gets to grow and grow, larger and more powerful, expanding into the territory previously owned by others. We've seen his tendrils in Kalimdor, C'thun's former lands. And Dragonblight, Yoggy's crib. The death of the other gods have helped N'Zoth mature and gain the power to do the impressive shit he's been doing.

[Bodakane]

Its gonna be Jaina. She was infected in MoP by a Sha.

[Qualia]

Ugh, that's not what it means, or what I mean. As he says that, he is bashing his head against the stones. You see Deathwing trashing around in pain, and you see it causing disasters, splitting open the Barrens. It's Deathwing doing that, because he is the corrupted Earthwarder, lashing out in pain.

That isn't an indication that Deathwing being in pain must 100% be the cause for the disasters, though. It's possible that those things were just happening at the same time, and was put together with Deathwing's boast of "The world heaves with my torment, it wretched kingdoms quakes beneath my rage" for presentation value (in other words, it looks cool).

Still, let's assume that Deathwing can somehow cause disasters on Azeroth at will while being in another dimension altogether (which I'm kinda doubtful) - my counter argument to that (Deathwing being in pain causing disasters on Azeroth before the Cataclysm) was: firstly, the earthquakes started happening month(s) before Cataclysm, shortly before we assaulted ICC. The process of putting plates on Deathwing's full body takes hours to a few days only (based on the same process during WoTA), so it couldn't have been the cause. That's why I only put the earthquakes in my post (further clarified to be the one started in 3.3.0) instead of the Element Invasion (the event in 4.0.3, in the same patch that the earthquakes were happening a lot more often than before) as the later happened too close to the Cataclysm and thus, might be the result of Deathwing's action.
Secondly, if Deathwing being in pain cause all those disasters, why was there no consequence to our fight with Deathwing? We were right next to the Maelstrom, supposedly weakest point of the world - it's in middle of the sea and Deathwing bursted back from there, after all. We caused him plenty of pain and eventually killed him, yet there was no disaster - no earthquake, no tsunami, no drought, nothing. Okay, it might be an issue of developers being lazy - but then, this isn't the first time Deathwing was in pain. He was injured so many times (some of those gravely), from WoTA, to second war, DotD, and even in Cataclysm - why hadn't any of those cause any similar disaster?

[Tripzzz]

That isn't an indication that Deathwing being in pain must 100% be the cause for the disasters, though. It's possible that those things were just happening at the same time, and was put together with Deathwing's boast of "The world heaves with my torment, it wretched kingdoms quakes beneath my rage" for presentation value (in other words, it looks cool).

Still, let's assume that Deathwing can somehow cause disasters on Azeroth at will while being in another dimension altogether (which I'm kinda doubtful) - my counter argument to that (Deathwing being in pain causing disasters on Azeroth before the Cataclysm) was: firstly, the earthquakes started happening month(s) before Cataclysm, shortly before we assaulted ICC. The process of putting plates on Deathwing's full body takes hours to a few days only (based on the same process during WoTA), so it couldn't have been the cause. That's why I only put the earthquakes in my post (further clarified to be the one started in 3.3.0) instead of the Element Invasion (the event in 4.0.3, in the same patch that the earthquakes were happening a lot more often than before) as the later happened too close to the Cataclysm and thus, might be the result of Deathwing's action.
Secondly, if Deathwing being in pain cause all those disasters, why was there no consequence to our fight with Deathwing? We were right next to the Maelstrom, supposedly weakest point of the world - it's in middle of the sea and Deathwing bursted back from there, after all. We caused him plenty of pain and eventually killed him, yet there was no disaster - no earthquake, no tsunami, no drought, nothing. Okay, it might be an issue of developers being lazy - but then, this isn't the first time Deathwing was in pain. He was injured so many times (some of those gravely), from WoTA, to second war, DotD, and even in Cataclysm - why hadn't any of those cause any similar disaster?

The dimension he was in is a dimension linked to the earth of Azeroth. It makes sense for deathwing to cause quakes from there and it would explain why it didn't quake when he was in pain at other locations. It being mere coincidence the world was heaving with his torment as he said that seems unlikely. The old God deaths did have some role but deathwing did like 90% of it.

[Qualia]

The dimension he was in is a dimension linked to the earth of Azeroth. It makes sense for deathwing to cause quakes from there and it would explain why it didn't quake when he was in pain at other locations. It being mere coincidence the world was heaving with his torment as he said that seems unlikely. The old God deaths did have some role but deathwing did like 90% of it.

I don't disagree that Deathwing took part in the Cataclysm. I'm just pointing out that the earthquakes started happening month(s) before Deathwing bursted back to Azeroth (right before we assaulted ICC). The process of putting on plates on Deathwing's body lasts hours to few days only (based on the same process happened during WoTA), so Deathwing can't be tormented all the time when those earthquakes started. That's why I clarified that the earthquakes started in 3.3.0 instead of the Element Invasion event in which earthquakes also happened more frequently (4.0.3, pre-patch for Cataclysm). The later (Element Invasion / 4.0.3 event) could have been caused by Deathwing since it was pretty near the moment he bursted back to Azeroth, but the former was too early to be the result of Deathwing's pain.

[Aquamonkey]

The dimension he was in is a dimension linked to the earth of Azeroth. It makes sense for deathwing to cause quakes from there and it would explain why it didn't quake when he was in pain at other locations. It being mere coincidence the world was heaving with his torment as he said that seems unlikely. The old God deaths did have some role but deathwing did like 90% of it.

The point of the Elemental Planes was that they are separate from Azeroth. Deathwing or anyone heaving around in Deepholme should have no affect on Azeroth. The operative word is "should". Azeroth was already fucked up prior to Deathwing's actions or busting through to cause the Cataclysm. The elemental unrest started a year before even the pre-Cata events. As Qualia said, this started with the release of ICC, not long after we killed Yogg.

[purebalance]

Yes, it was. It's not that he (or Blizzard in general) spoke the truth - it's that whatever they say, become the truth. Those are different things. If it wasn't truth until the moment he says it, it will be the truth after that - at least until Blizzard refute it or release any information that directly contradicts to it (and thus, override the previous information). Blizzard's employees that takes part in development of WoW's story are gods when it comes to WoW-verse, regardless where they made the statement - he could have said that in the WC to the interviewer next to him, and it'd still be fact. Unless Blizzard told us to disregards their answer from Twitter / interview / Blizzcon / etc. as non-canon sometimes ago and I'm not aware of it (I'm pretty sure that didn't happen)?

In regards to Falstad's case - while it's a great example of Blizzard capable of making mistake in regards to their lore (which as I said, I don't disagree with that fact), it would have been different if RSG didn't point out the mistake and they refuted their previous statement. Falstad would have been canonically dead even if the ending of the book and his appearances in game stated / implied otherwise - it'd be a retcon, but it'd remain the truth (in regard to WoW lore) nevertheless. Fortunately, they refuted that. As far as I know, they have never refuted the Old Gods' deaths caused the Cataclysm thing - in fact, they confirmed it twice even. If anyone isn't happy that the answer we're talking about is fact and think that Blizzard made mistake, I'd suggest you to ask the devs to refute that - then I (and many others) will be very happy to update my lore to the newer version.

It was refuted by in game lore. We actually didn't know that it was the cause until we went to Deepholm.

And the rumblings etc were his getting ready to come out considering he caused a ton of chaos in the elemental plane while he was getting ready if you actually read any quest text in Deepholm.

Metzen doesn't know shit and said that the death of the old gods caused the cataclysm to sound cool when he's really just an old nerd with no real friends.

- - - Updated - - -

The point of the Elemental Planes was that they are separate from Azeroth. Deathwing or anyone heaving around in Deepholme should have no affect on Azeroth. The operative word is "should". Azeroth was already fucked up prior to Deathwing's actions or busting through to cause the Cataclysm. The elemental unrest started a year before even the pre-Cata events. As Qualia said, this started with the release of ICC, not long after we killed Yogg.

That is 100% refuted considering the World Pillar being destroyed in Deepholm was 100% stated to be the reason why.

[Caerule]

@Qualia
Sorry that I've been losing my cool here, but..

Blizzard has stated it's Deathwing and his servants responsible for the earthquakes. It wasn't N'Zoth making the quakes. The Old Gods are said to have empowered Deathwing tenfold, but it wasn't them doing the actual quaking. Which makes sense. I mean. Otherwise why did it ever stop? Deathwing caused the Cataclysm. It was his trashing around in Deepholm, the realm of the Earth, the pillar of our world, that tormented the elemental spirits and caused the earth to quake and rupture. You really need to watch the trailer again. They are purposely timing the disasters to Azeroth with Deathwing's bashes to the earth.

I really don't see how you can claim there was no consequence of Deathwing being in the Maelstrom and us fighting him there, though. If that's what you think, I don't think you quite remember what the urgency of that fight was about. That fight was about us bashing his limbs off the platforms to break his concentration, as Deathwing tries to unleash his final Cataclysm. The aspects state clearly that Deathwing is trying to split open the planet, end all life, and unleash an all-consuming second Cataclysm. The only reason why there was no disaster, was because we kept interrupting Deathwing, until the Aspects were done charging the Dragon Soul.

[Raetary]

Or could always just take it directly through the portal to Argus.

I highly doubt the forge of orgination will fit through that portal.

We are talking about titanic machinery here.

[PursueTheChase]

I highly doubt the forge of orgination will fit through that portal.

We are talking about titanic machinery here.

Which we've never seen in-game and have no idea how big it really is. I really don't know why we went to that dungeon in the first place. Just kill the guardians so if anyone wants can just waltz right in and activate it?

[Tripzzz]

The point of the Elemental Planes was that they are separate from Azeroth. Deathwing or anyone heaving around in Deepholme should have no affect on Azeroth. The operative word is "should". Azeroth was already fucked up prior to Deathwing's actions or busting through to cause the Cataclysm. The elemental unrest started a year before even the pre-Cata events. As Qualia said, this started with the release of ICC, not long after we killed Yogg.

The world pillar was in deepholm though.

[Aucald]

I highly doubt the forge of orgination will fit through that portal.

We are talking about titanic machinery here.

Doesn't the Forge of Origination encompass pretty much the entirety of the city in which it's based? Definitely don't see that fitting through even a portal that permits the arrival of demonic legions. A portal that size might consume the world it's opened on before anything can be passed through it.

[Qualia]

It was refuted by in game lore. We actually didn't know that it was the cause until we went to Deepholm.

And the rumblings etc were his getting ready to come out considering he caused a ton of chaos in the elemental plane while he was getting ready if you actually read any quest text in Deepholm.

Metzen doesn't know shit and said that the death of the old gods caused the cataclysm to sound cool when he's really just an old nerd with no real friends.

No, it wasn't. I admit that it was years ago so I might be missing something, but I'm very sure nothing in Deepholm contradicted to that statement. If there was anything stated that Deathwing *alone* (or Deathwing's action), and nothing else was the cause of the Cataclysm, feel free to give me the quest and / or the quote. Something in the line of "Deathwing caused it" or "Deathwing's action caused it" doesn't contradict with "(The world blows up) Because of the Old Gods". As I said, an effect can have multiple causes.

Additionally, let me reiterate myself: I wasn't talking about the Element Invasion in 4.0.3 (Cataclysm pre-patch) in which we got a lot more noticable earthquakes. I was talking about the earthquakes that started as early as 3.3 (ICC). That happened way before the elementals showing sign of disturbance, and months before Deathwing came back to Azeroth.

Regardless of how you / I / we feel about Metzen, he is still a creator. Thus, it doesn't matter if he "doesn't know shit". What he says, become the truth until refuted / contradicted by another newer piece of information from Blizzard anyway. He can say that Sargeras is a woman, and Sargeras will be a woman even though he has been portrayed entirely different up until now. That's how it works.

That is 100% refuted considering the World Pillar being destroyed in Deepholm was 100% stated to be the reason why.

I addressed this above, but again - the earthquakes happened months before this. How could the World Pillar be 100% the reason why when it started before the Pillar was even damaged? Would you mind giving me the quote saying that the World Pillar was the only reason for all that? I just took a brief look through the World Pillar chain (and damn, now that I'm looking at that, it was such a long chain) and I didn't see anything like that (only what we've already know - that the collapsing of the World Pillar created a rift between Azeroth and Deepholm, and if we dondidn't t fix it, Deepholm would collapse into Azeroth and teared our world apart)

Sorry that I've been losing my cool here, but..

Blizzard has stated it's Deathwing and his servants responsible for the earthquakes. It wasn't N'Zoth making the quakes. The Old Gods are said to have empowered Deathwing tenfold, but it wasn't them doing the actual quaking. Which makes sense. I mean. Otherwise why did it ever stop? Deathwing caused the Cataclysm. It was his trashing around in Deepholm, the realm of the Earth, the pillar of our world, that tormented the elemental spirits and caused the earth to quake and rupture. You really need to watch the trailer again. They are purposely timing the disasters to Azeroth with Deathwing's bashes to the earth.

No problem, I didn't even realize you was losing your cool.

Anyway, I'd like to see the quote and the source of the statement that Deathwing and his minions was the *only* cause of *all* the earthquakes, especially the ones that started as early as 3.3.0 (which was months - almost a year - before Deathwing bursted back to Azeroth). As I said in my post, I'm not referring to the earthquakes with increased frequency in 4.0.3 (Elemental Invasion event, pre-expansion patch for Cataclysm).

I'm aware that they purposely time the disaster on Azeroth with Deathwing thrashes around in Deepholm (plus his speech). However, that isn't conclusive evidence that Deathwing was the sole cause of these earthquakes (especially earlier ones). I was saying that it's possible that they only put them together because it looks cool, and it made the speech seems more badass. Of course, it only means we can't be sure what was the case, that's why I brought up other points.

I really don't see how you can claim there was no consequence of Deathwing being in the Maelstrom and us fighting him there, though. If that's what you think, I don't think you quite remember what the urgency of that fight was about. That fight was about us bashing his limbs off the platforms to break his concentration, as Deathwing tries to unleash his final Cataclysm. The aspects state clearly that Deathwing is trying to split open the planet, end all life, and unleash an all-consuming second Cataclysm. The only reason why there was no disaster, was because we kept interrupting Deathwing, until the Aspects were done charging the Dragon Soul.

Exactly, the urgency of the fight was because of what would have happened if we failed to win (in other words, Deathwing got to carry out the Cataclysm). However, there was no consequence in our actions towards him. We attacked, injured him gravely, and eventually killed him. If Deathwing being in pain caused all the disasters (earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.), there should have been plenty of that going on during our fight with Deathwing since we put him through a lot of pain. Yet, nothing happened - no earthquake, no tidal waves, nothing.

[Soulsworn]

Final boss of Legion?

Corrupted Azeroth awakens...

[Caerule]

@Qualia I've tried to clarify a few times now, so I'll try to state it as clear as possible now xD.

I'm not saying there were earthquakes because Deathwing was feeling pain. I'm saying there were earthquakes because the corrupted Earthwarder, the guy that can literally split the planet if he wants to according to the last fight, was thrashing about in agony, slamming around in the literal realm of the Earth spirits that supports Azeroth. The earth is shaking because Deepholm is shaking. It's not the pain I'm referring to as the cause. But the actions he takes because of that pain.

And yes, at the Cataclysm panel at the Blizzcon where Cata was announced, Metzen and Afrasiabi state that it's Deathwing and his followers that are to blame for the Cataclysm. The Old Gods are mentioned as the things that empowered him tons. But they aren't mentioned as a cause for causing the quakes.

Azeroth is simply not getting any less stable because we killed C'thun and Yogg-Saron. That was all Deathwing and the Twilight Hammer causing elemental unrest. The only impact the death of those two Old Gods will have, is that N'Zoth now has no competition to limit its growth and rise in power. He is now free to grow into the world devouring form we see in the background of that Augur fight, if he's not stopped.

The Earthquakes were just Blizzard's way of building up expense for Deathwing's emergence. It's why the earthquakes stopped after he emerged. If N'Zoth was behind the earthquakes, please explain why they have stopped? Shouldn't we be facing more and more, instead?

[Aquamonkey]

The world pillar was in deepholm though.

Yes, and that's what keeps them separate. When DW shattered it is when they started to collapse on each other.

[Spiffums]

I think if it was Illidan it would be kinda funny. We've spend the whole "fan girl" experience where she has done her best to convince us that he is really the champion and hero. He KS's us on Gul'dan and then turns out to be the worst of the worse.

[Tripzzz]

Yes, and that's what keeps them separate. When DW shattered it is when they started to collapse on each other.

Could be DW's thrashing about was creating tiny cracks in the world pillar and thus causing the quakes.