M+ should have been dungeon crawling

[LaserChild9]

I don't think it would work without the timers. The timers are there to rate how much higher your next keystone should be and how many chests you get, if there were no timers how would the game know what level your next keystone should be?

[Hotsforyou]

I absolutely hate what Dungeons have become since the introduction of LFG. I miss having to CC and plan out pulls and taking your time crawling through a dungeon. Once i am raid ready i never step foot in 5 mans again. Still have only done maybe 5 M+ this xpak because i find 5 mans so boring.

[elaina]

I couldn't agree more. Scaling mythic difficulty into a more methodical and difficult run rather than a burn fest would be far better imo. Everyone wanting to 3 chest zerg everything makes groupfinder a lot more toxic as well as everyone wants participants to greatly outgear everything as usual. Perhaps the best way would be to diverge the two and have timed challenge mythic for prestige rewards/mounts and regular for gear, etc.

[Roar-Powah]

Eh no. You don't complete any level Mythic just with gear. Most affixes will slaughter your group, even if in the best gear available, if you don't make some effort with tactics. There is a crap ton of CC thrown around in M+ too, it's just rarely long CC (though that happens too in certain pulls with multiple dangerous mobs) but more about stuns and the occasional slows in necrotic week for kiting.

Slow pulls with CC are not in any way more challenging than fast pulls with CC; you just all know what to crowd control beforehand. There is still a lot of strategy involved; you need to have a decent kill order, know which mobs need to be stunned during their enrage and who has to interrupt what. And quite often you need to play a different role than the obvious one which is almost never encountered elsewhere in the game; tanks are always expected to do significant damage and offhealing, healers need to use windows of burst damage, dps and healers will occasionally have to tank so the tank can get stacks off.

The only problem with the timer imo is that you absolutely need voice com for high ranks and that the mechanics of key depletion make M+ very unfriendly to new players, particularly tanks, since no one is willing to wipe a few times so they can get the experience they need to be better (and lower content just is not challenging enough for them to get any significant experience).

All the high end ones I've watch has been aoe stun aoe dps and slow + kiting, hardly any skill needed. group that with high item level gear and it becomes a joke. Mythic + dungeons isn't the challenge i was hoping it would be. It's all about class and gear, yes skill has some factor but gear can carry you most of the way.

[endur]

timers are awful.

[killwithpwr]

If you dont like timers, go for the normals or hc, no one is stopping you.

[Sithalos]

I would rather have a giant BRD style dungeon that takes 2 hours to clear, than to spam Maw 20 times a day.

But eh, w/e.

[Temp name]

I would rather have a giant BRD style dungeon that takes 2 hours to clear, than to spam Maw 20 times a day.

But eh, w/e.

Well, if the rewards were the same, sure. But if the choice is between 20x HoV and 20x Maw (same rewards), I'll take Maw any day of the week.

[Echo of Soul]

That's probably the best argument I've seen against no-timer. It would really go against the whole feel of 2017 WoW - which is super fast paced.

I personally fucking hate the timer. Maybe I'm just old, but I come from the EQ school of MMORPGs where there should be downtime and slow, well-thought out pulling. That's actually where the socializing happened.

The game was actually more relaxing to play and enjoyable, which is what I'm looking for. A chill dungeoning experience where you can just go through an area with some pals and chat it up and fuck around. But still tactically challenging. You can afk a few minutes and grab food or something, no big deal, you just tackled the next challenge ahead when you get back.

Maybe that type of gameplay is dead?

It's not dead, but you have to turn to private servers and play old versions of WoW, which is what I've done and I'm having more fun than I've had in years.

[Deleted]

It's already the case...

Achieving the timer only helps you accessing higher level faster. You don't need to achieve timer to get the reward of your key. Depleting your key or managing the timer will give you the same loot. The only difference is that achieving basic timer will give you the opportunity to go one step higher. +2 and +3 gives you more loot because of the skipped level, or it would just be counter productive.

I would bet you barely did any MM+ and are actually arguing against a system you don't even clearly understand. MM+ aren't perfect (especially on affixes balance). But they are still fair and more important : fun. Try to do some run, try to improve if you want to. And you may actually enjoy the content.

You're right about that. I think I did +2, +3 and had a go at one more, can't remember whenever it was +4 or +5. But I do have an understanding of the mechanics as far as keys are concerned. Currently I'd assume that we're looking at it from different perspectives. I'm viewing it from a point of just using my own key, as I don't want to be responsible for depleting the key of someone else. Furthermore my assumption is that I will fail not at +15 but rather say +10 or even lower and would you run such a low level depleted key? My assumption would be that you're going at it from the perspective of a player that has done a lot of M+ and probably knows pretty well what M+ level is "easy" for him/her and has some form of established group to push his limit. As such you have a lot of opportunities to improve while playing other peoples keys and have a group that allows you do go with some really coordinated effort for a higher level.

As for it being fun I guess it depends on your class. I haven't had much time since 7.1.5 hit, so I'm not sure how much Shadows improved in multi target, burst damage but before 7.1.5 it felt miserable. As far as I can tell M+ is about bursting mob packs back to back and Shadows were horrible at that (at least pre 7.1.5). I pretty much ignored M+ after my RL told me during raid to go and do M+, to get more gear and AP, only to look for a M+ guild group after raid and explicitly stating that they weren't going to take any Shadows because they're so bad for M+.

[Deleted]

I mean more like wipe and try again adjusting your strategy. The timer doesn't afford you that many wipes.

Anyway when I think Dungeon Crawling, I think D&D. And that means no more idiot monsters waiting their turn to be killed. Prepare for a non-stop pull as every group sends runners to inform the next group, no boss waits for his room to be cleared before engaging you and there is no aggro since everyone is intelligent enough to gang up on the healer.
Now THAT is Dungeon Crawling.

So, unplayable, you mean.

[Hotmail]

Blizzard would probably get a lot of attention if they were to take the idea of a procedurally-generated M+ Megadungeon to a crowdfunding platform. In all likelihood they would have too much pride to entertain the idea, however.

[Dastreus]

It should've been harder difficulties requiring use of CC and smart pulling.

[Deleted]

Well no. My groups usually survived but that's because a D&D character can do far, far more than a WoW character. The purpose of that comment was mostly to illustrate that true dungeon crawling simply cannot be done in WoW because the engine cannot allow it.

The engine does not stop shit. You could make Bosses aggro healers, have infinite leash range and all kinds of stuff.

And i played D&D ; The hell your char can do more. Cast some higher levels spells once per day, roll to see if you even manage to perform a sneak, make a second attack - please - I had Winfury, Stealth, Greater Invis, Pyroblasts and what not for expansions.

It's simply not playable. Cause a big monster, stomping about, realistically punching your healer, well, tends to kill you. Cause, heyyyyyyyyy, Realiiiiiiiiism - not that D&D has that either - What with Bags of Holding defying physics and all that.

[Nevcairiel]

The thing is, this will happen with Mythic+1 scaling up in 7.2. The Mythics will be brutal. I just think that it would have made more sense instead of waiting till 7.2 to scale Mythic+1 up to have scaled it in smaller steps in 7.1 and 7.1.5 instead of letting higher key levels drop gear.

In essence while M+ system actually did make it so dungeons were not abandoned, they made a poor choice to scale it upwards instead of just scaling the base up for the same amount which made Mythic+1 offer no challenge and crap loot and thus get abandoned. Had they scaled up the base gradually they would have kept both the more accessible form challenging and interesting and M+ would have stayed the same while keeping the prestige of a +15 run intact (let's face it, NH loot will shit on +15)

The problem is that you cannot just scale up base Mythic without offering some other kind of catch-up, or new players get stuck in a place after heroic dungeons but where Mythics are very hard. 7.2 also boosts heroics up, and adds catch-up for fresh 110s to get to the new heroic level, so there is no power gap you cannot pass.

Adding catch-ups and rebalancing the base levels is far more work then they would want to do several times in smaller steps, so its understandable why they prefer to do one big step. You can still have your +15 prestige by tieing a date to when you did it, or doing even higher levels and showing off with those.

[Lionhearte0]

This is 100% what would happen. If you really need that 15 for the week and you aren't geared enough to reliably finish it (and it's fortified and not tyrannical) you could just BL every big trash pull and get through the place. If it was like this and you could keep progressing then you'd have undergeared or lesser skilled players doing this from ranks 12-15 and being miserable and blaming Blizzard for forcing them to finish a 15 for the weekly cap.

So let's remove BL.

[Nozuka]

It should've been harder difficulties requiring use of CC and smart pulling.

i miss those times.

[Hctaz]

So let's remove BL.

I mentioned this earlier: If adding a new mode to the game requires you to remove already established aspects of the game then it's poorly designed. A new game mode compliments your already existing game. M+ fits the current design of WoW without needing to limit what the player can and cannot do.

[Daffan]

The timer isn't the worst part of M+ tbh

It's WF/TF making it about farming the crap difficulties instead of progressing up from easy > medium > hard as you get better.

[Matthias]

That's probably the best argument I've seen against no-timer. It would really go against the whole feel of 2017 WoW - which is super fast paced.

I personally fucking hate the timer. Maybe I'm just old, but I come from the EQ school of MMORPGs where there should be downtime and slow, well-thought out pulling. That's actually where the socializing happened.

The game was actually more relaxing to play and enjoyable, which is what I'm looking for. A chill dungeoning experience where you can just go through an area with some pals and chat it up and fuck around. But still tactically challenging. You can afk a few minutes and grab food or something, no big deal, you just tackled the next challenge ahead when you get back.

Maybe that type of gameplay is dead?

I doubt people will wait for lust every 10 minutes...but I miss that more thoughtful and tactiful mindset of Dungeons. A DPS player is not only valued by how big they can blow their DPS wad, not on how resourceful they were at controlling situations like in Vanilla or TBC.

Do have to remember though in the Old Days....pugging a Dungeon could take well over an hour. A nice thing about M+ is when I know I only have about 30 minutes to play I know I can bang out a Mythic+ in a pug real quick.

Bare in mind 15+ where many aren't going for the timer you can take your time.