4 Problems with PL and NH

[Petersensei]

Hi people,
My guild is running on PL for NH. After 2weeks of raiding, I observed 4 problems with PL with tier gears. And now, I am trying to convince my guild to swap to ml or group loot. I need help from you guys! Any feedbacks or critiques welcomed.

So lets list out the problems I observed.

1. You can only trade tier between classes.
One dumb thing PL does to tier is that, instead giving you a token like ml. It opens the token directly. Because of that, the loot is automatically fixed to one class. It would not be that much of a problem if a guild has like 6 paladins to share with. But in two scenarios, it is problematic.
Scene1: You are the only one (class), in this case, you would have much harder time to collect your tier set. While other can just trade if they want to.
Scene2: Everyone in that class already have the tier. As a result the tier is wasted unless it is a socketed/titanforged/wf

The story:
Both our locks got the cape tier, and they got another one with same ilvl. Lets just say our DH,priest,pally guildie were not happy

2. Legendaries and tier
With the introduction of the legendary system of legion. PL became more complicated. In WoD, it was not noticeable because everyone only has the legendary ring(which did not conflict with tiers). But in legion, we have things like DH memehelm, mage blink chest, paldin cape etc. Due to the variety of legendaries, it created a problem, in which some people in the guild wasted the tier gear as legendaries DO NOT count towards max ilvl of the slot. Other than that, if you are the only one of your class and the legendary is not terrible, most of time you would not replace it with tier. Thus it is wasted.

The story:
Our DH has the eye beam helm, and he got the head tier last week. He couldn't trade it because the eye beam helm is not his max ilvl.

3. Titanforge trade rule.
Another feature introduced in legion is the titanforged system. With it, gears could vary from its base ilvl to the max 925ilvl. And the thing is titanforged status on a piece does not have set ilvl addition. In WoD, wf was 15 ilvl if i remember correctly. So for example, a person gets a 890 tier in heroic nighthold. And he equips it. The next week he could get a 895~925 wf/titanforged. Of course, if the person gets a 925 titanforged tier, the person would equip it.(and all the congratz to that person). But if it was a 5~10 ilvl upgrade and another person is at his 1st or 3rd set, wanting to complete a set bonus. PL unfortunately limits the trade option. In this scenario, that guy could've gotten a 5%-10% damage/healing upgrade, instead it became a 5ilvl-10ilvl upgrade. (looks like a waste to me, but it depends I guess)

The story:
This actually happened, when our monk tank bonus rolled a tier and got another one from boss. And he couldn't trade it due to that 5ilvl difference. Later that day, one of our monk dps said he really wanted that piece.

4. Stats and tier
Although stats were recently "fixed" in 7.1.5. It is still a problem for some classes. As a fire mage, I would still prefer to have some crits in my gear. But with PL, a person could have a tier with the worst stats possible. e.g. My mage tier chest, (which is in my bag) is "bad" as it has vers mastery. I would've trade it to others, but everyone in my guild is playing fire. So it didn't matter, since no one really wanted it. But yea, if tiers could be traded with other classes. That "bad" tier for me could become "good" tier for other.

These are my thoughts and observations. What do you guys think? Am I overthinking? I know everything will be fine after 2months of farming. And I know PL generally gives more loot compared to ML. Please, let me hear some feedbacks and thoughts from you guys.

[Arcanines]

PL is made for casuals and pugs who doesn't care much about loot and just want to doge the drama. Either go full time ML like most guilds that does progression, or do the smart thing which people in your guild hopefully isn't to ignorant or dumb to notice. Going ML on every single tier boss, if it's such a big issue wanting to give 4 sets out.

You have to understand what it is your goal is within the guild, if loot is such a big issue with all these RNG elements then well it's clear that you're not the target audience for PL. Also hoping for blizzard to change their stance on PL is a no go, they'll never change it again.

[Petersensei]

PL is made for casuals and pugs who doesn't care much about loot and just want to doge the drama. Either go full time ML like most guilds that does progression, or do the smart thing which people in your guild hopefully isn't to ignorant or dumb to notice. Going ML on every single tier boss, if it's such a big issue wanting to give 4 sets out.

You have to understand what it is your goal is within the guild, if loot is such a big issue with all these RNG elements then well it's clear that you're not the target audience for PL. Also hoping for blizzard to change their stance on PL is a no go, they'll never change it again.

I am trying to convince them right now. I just want to collect more thoughts beforehand. Yea, the main argument of using PL is to reduce drama. Thanks !

[Nitros14]

Running PL instead of master looter on tier bosses seems like a terrible idea.

[Petersensei]

Running PL instead of master looter on tier bosses seems like a terrible idea.

I know right? We already wasted 2-3 pieces. And I really don't want that to continue!

[Deleted]

As a guild you should be using ML to control tier distribution. No discussion possible

[Petersensei]

As a guild you should be using ML to control tier distribution. No discussion possible

Agreed! 100%

[Deleted]

Agreed! 100%

In our group we even have a rule that we prioritize members who can make a 2 or 4 set over others. because that benefits us more as everyone with 1 or 3 pieces

[Sam the Wiser]

I kinda want Blizzard to remove ML honestly. Raiding mythic with PL removes legit 80% of guild drama.

[Petersensei]

In our group we even have a rule that we prioritize members who can make a 2 or 4 set over others. because that benefits us more as everyone with 1 or 3 pieces

Yes that is my ideal. I hope if we change to ML, that would happen. But for now, I would be happy if we just distribute tier to people who actually needs it.

- - - Updated - - -

I kinda want Blizzard to remove ML honestly. Raiding mythic with PL removes legit 80% of guild drama.

True, that is the main benefit of PL. But with the current PL system and gearing in legion, PL actually created more frustration than it solved.

[Deleted]

If a serious guild can't handle fair loot distribution without drama, it should consider kicking loot whores if a few people are whining, or making other people in charge of loot if a majority of players feel treated badly.

[Petersensei]

If a serious guild can't handle fair loot distribution without drama, it should consider kicking loot whores if a few people are whining, or making other people in charge of loot if a majority of players feel treated badly.

Our main reason of using PL right now is that nobody wants to be in charge of loot, and we want to make the process as fast as possible. One word: Lazy. That is what I know for sure.

We are 8/10H right now. I guess we are serious to a certain degree.

[Telanore]

Another issue, extremely bad luck. I don't know what happened with luck protection after they introduced AP items in place of gold, but we have two members who have not had a single usable drop since Nighthold was released, and that's with a full normal clear every week in addition to hc...

[Vargur]

And the thing is titanforged status on a piece does not have set ilvl addition.

It's +45 actually.

[Sonnillon]

Our main reason of using PL right now is that nobody wants to be in charge of loot, and we want to make the process as fast as possible. One word: Lazy. That is what I know for sure.

We are 8/10H right now. I guess we are serious to a certain degree.

Group loot if you still want to keep it simple and have tokens be tokens not items. Downside is that max items afaik you can get is 5-6 per 30 people (you "could" get more with PL). People will have to be reasonable cannot be asses about rolling on items - need, greed, de, pass options you will be getting.

Added: Also using ML (which also can give you only certain amount of items) is very simple, all you need to have is one person left behind at the boss while the rest clear the tons of trash. You don't have to ask people to type /roll or use any fancy addons when using ML. You rightclick on an item as ML, choose roll for items (or something like that) instead of assigning the items. People get the usual roll window and after that - you just assign the loot to winner.

If you raid heroic and say you are serious to certain degree, then being lazy is a lousy excuse. People just don't want to be target for QQ of roll RNG :P

[Petersensei]

It's +45 actually.

I meant titanforge could be a 905,910,915,920,925. So a person could get a 905 this week, 910 next week and unable to trade

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Group loot if you still want to keep it simple and have tokens be tokens not items. Downside is that max items afaik you can get is 5-6 per 30 people (you "could" get more with PL). People will have to be reasonable cannot be asses about rolling on items - need, greed, de, pass options you will be getting.

That is what I said to them. If ML is too annoying group loot would be fine. But one concern is that there must be rules to who can need, or greed.

- - - Updated - - -

Another issue, extremely bad luck. I don't know what happened with luck protection after they introduced AP items in place of gold, but we have two members who have not had a single usable drop since Nighthold was released, and that's with a full normal clear every week in addition to hc...

Yes. that is one problem. Although you can trade between classes, what if there's only one dk and he is unlucky with loot.

- - - Updated - - -

Group loot if you still want to keep it simple and have tokens be tokens not items. Downside is that max items afaik you can get is 5-6 per 30 people (you "could" get more with PL). People will have to be reasonable cannot be asses about rolling on items - need, greed, de, pass options you will be getting.

Added: Also using ML (which also can give you only certain amount of items) is very simple, all you need to have is one person left behind at the boss while the rest clear the tons of trash. You don't have to ask people to type /roll or use any fancy addons when using ML. You rightclick on an item as ML, choose roll for items (or something like that) instead of assigning the items. People get the usual roll window and after that - you just assign the loot to winner.

If you raid heroic and say you are serious to certain degree, then being lazy is a lousy excuse. People just don't want to be target for QQ of roll RNG :P

Yea. We did use EPGP back in hfc mythic. I have no idea why we stopped using it. That did made the whole process faster

[cuafpr]

Our main reason of using PL right now is that nobody wants to be in charge of loot, and we want to make the process as fast as possible. One word: Lazy. That is what I know for sure.

We are 8/10H right now. I guess we are serious to a certain degree.

there is your issue and solution right there, step up and volunteer to be the master looter and distributor, if you are not willing to do that than PL it is most likely. I like PL for its simplicity myself esp the first month or so of a raid.

[Deleted]

I kinda want Blizzard to remove ML honestly. Raiding mythic with PL removes legit 80% of guild drama.

well if your goal is to clean normal as a casual player, why not. But some of us are raiding in mythic and needs optimisation. ML is the only way to go

[Rotted]

We were using ML with RC loot council,

We've now switched to PL, while I hate RC Loot council, I despise PL more, not because of the reasons you've listed (Albeit some good reasons), but because theres nothing, absolutely nothing, more frustrating that killing a progress boss, and getting 26 gold or w/e it is. Bonus points if you also use a seal and get ap.

I'd rather see it drop 6 items I can't use in all honesty. True its the same, but it just feels better to see it drop.

[Deleted]

We were using ML with RC loot council,

We've now switched to PL, while I hate RC Loot council, I despise PL more, not because of the reasons you've listed (Albeit some good reasons), but because theres nothing, absolutely nothing, more frustrating that killing a progress boss, and getting 26 gold or w/e it is. Bonus points if you also use a seal and get ap.

I'd rather see it drop 6 items I can't use in all honesty. True its the same, but it just feels better to see it drop.

>THIS.

When i first came back on WoW at the start of Legion and discovered that PL was a thing, i was so frustrated by this. Killing a boss for "nothing". Worst idea ever. It's an MMO and we're removing everything that make us play together.