5 dead! Canadian Mosque Attacked

[Ravenblade]

The thing I have learned in this thread is: It's not important that a terrible incident happened but that said incident wasn't cause by my side. It's also important to identify the involved person's background before anyone else and it needs to belong to at least one group of the opposing side. Honestly, I can understand why a lot people feel that this world has become total nuts.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

If you think about it, it's funny how the far right try oh so hard to separate themselves from who they hate, only to behave the same as them.

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Pretending to be neutral after only a few thousand posts detailing what a hardline far right winger you are does you no credit. Nobody is falling for your base act.

That's gold, right there. I'm a far right winger because I'm anti-Clinton. You represent the perfect picture of "If you're a democrat, anyone on the right is an extremist. If you're a republican, anyone on the left is a socialist."

But let's disregard my pro-lgbt stance, my pro-environment stance, my pro-equality stance, my pro-abortion stance, my pro-Bernie stance, my etc etc.

No, you're not a political organization, but you're still trying to blame the left for the actions of an alt-right guy who bought into alt-right rhetoric. You're just looking for any excuse you can to blame people who you dislike ideologically for something that they had nothing at all to do with.

I'm on the left, bud.

I'm blaming people who use authoritarian groupthink, including the democratic-liberals and the far-right neo-nazis. On the emotional burst, I did target the left because that's what triggered me, but I know it's not limited to them.

Good grief. So I guess you don't want to shame ISIL or Al-Qaeda either eh? Because what happens when you corner a dog? He bites.

These organisations survives because of their extremism. They take outcasts, brainwash them, then send them on suicide missions to commit act of terrorism. I'm not speaking of those in their country fighting for their twisted ideologies - I'm speaking about these lone wolves who commit murder in first world country.

Their very definition is to have an authoritarian control over everyone. So yes, the blame is on the organization.

Bissonnette, on the other hand, acted on his own volition, based on his own extremist bubble he has created as an alternative reality. But he was pushed there. Do you know how sects work? It's very clever (and disturbing). You need low self-esteem and the need to be accepted by a group.

[Ravenblade]

I'm blaming people who use authoritarian groupthink, including the democratic-liberals and the far-right neo-nazis. On the emotional burst, I did target the left because that's what triggered me, but I know it's not limited to them.

It is controversial to just blame one side and be done with it. Aside from moral patronization it won't achieve a thing. The reasons why filter bubbles, fake news, alternative "facts" thrive and why we have moved on from the information age to the desinformation age (or post-factual age) is multifold.

One reason is that information has become a cheap currency. You do not need to be educated any more in order to decypher an information, you can actually be educated on the go but only as far and as deep as the context goes which has been preceded by the "TL;DR" culture. Education is no longer a factor when it comes to being able to process an information. This is because information itself has become something that is volatile, easily manipulable and more and more unreliable as our technologies are progressing.

Another issue is that people talk less and less with each other but more about each other unless they belong to the same circle of friends. This can be easily illustrated on an example: 10 years ago I travelled by train from Switzerland to FFM and there were 3 more strangers on the table, we eventually talked for hours about this and that. Over the years this became less common, case in point last time I travelled everyone was looking at their smartphones, tablets and laptop computer screens with Facebook and Facebook'esque apps running. This has got a lot to do how technology has encroached daily lives. As someone who has decided to smash his smartphone into pieces and live without one this has become an interesting phenomenon. The circle of friends have become virtualised and unquantifiable because who you are friends with is wholly dependant on whose side you are on in this self-inflicted cultural battle. A lot issues which are workable in virtual space but not in reality have turned into real life battlegrounds.

It is a mix of how technology has started to dominate our social lives to the point that we have companies algorithmizing everything through use of artificial intelligence and heuristic pattern matching down to our social and political opinions and how information is accessible and can be processed.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

It is controversial to just blame one side and be done with it. Aside from moral patronization it won't achieve a thing. The reasons why filter bubbles, fake news, alternative "facts" thrive and why we have moved on from the information age to the desinformation age (or post-factual age) is multifold.

One reason is that information has become a cheap currency. You do not need to be educated any more in order to decypher an information, you can actually be educated on the go but only as far and as deep as the context goes which has been preceded by the "TL;DR" culture. Education is no longer a factor when it comes to being able to process an information. This is because information itself has become something that is volatile, easily manipulable and more and more unreliable as our technologies are progressing.

Another issue is that people talk less and less with each other but more about each other unless they belong to the same circle of friends. This can be easily illustrated on an example: 10 years ago I travelled by train from Switzerland to FFM and there were 3 more strangers on the table, we eventually talked for hours about this and that. Over the years this became less common, case in point last time I travelled everyone was looking at their smartphones, tablets and laptop computer screens with Facebook and Facebook'esque apps running. This has got a lot to do how technology has encroached daily lives. As someone who has decided to smash his smartphone into pieces and live without one this has become an interesting phenomenon. The circle of friends have become virtualised and unquantifiable because who you are friends with is wholly dependant on whose side you are on in this self-inflicted cultural battle. A lot issues which are workable in virtual space but not in reality have turned into real life battlegrounds.

It is a mix of how technology has started to dominate our social lives to the point that we have companies algorithmizing everything through use of artificial intelligence and heuristic pattern matching down to our social and political opinions and how information is accessible and can be processed.

I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.

[TwoNineMarine]

My thoughts are definitely with the families and friends of all those hurt and killed.

It takes a shitty shitty person to do such a thing.

[Frontenac]

They clearly didn't say he's a terrorist, because according to their racist logic, a terrorist can only be a Muslim.

Or maybe he's not a terrorist? As far as we know, the shooter did not do this to further a political agenda or to force an action from the government and it was not on behalf of an organisation. He's a racist or a xenophobe that has decided alone to kill people just because of their religion. That's bad enough. Words have a meaning and a weight. If you use them for everything they loose their meaning. Take the word "genocide". This word cannot be used lightly to describe any massacre of population. Because when a real genocide happens, your out of words to carry the true meaning and the weight of the tragedy that happened.

[Kraenen]

Good grief. So I guess you don't want to shame ISIL or Al-Qaeda either eh? Because what happens when you corner a dog? He bites.

Well, remember you shouldn't insult their prophet or you'll make more terrorism. (Seriously, people believe this). So by this logic you shouldn't insult straight white males because you'll make more "far-right" terrorism (someone correctly pointed out muslims are right-wing).

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Sean Spicer is a fucking shit and so is Trump. He tried to spin this into how his ban on 7 muslim countries policy is helping? How does it help us against his Neo Nazi fans? Then again hes trying to put one on the american national security council.

Obviously you can fight both at the same time, by denouncing neo-nazis and educate against their ideology, while doing the same for muslim extremists.

[minteK917]

Obviously you can fight both at the same time, by denouncing neo-nazis and educate against their ideology, while doing the same for muslim extremists.

Except thats not what the guy said. He tried to win shit points with the idiots that voted for him.

[SidFwuff]

Or maybe he's not a terrorist? As far as we know, the shooter did not do this to further a political agenda or to force an action from the government and it was not on behalf of an organisation.

What isn't clear about what the Prime Minister said the day after the attack?

"Make no mistake – this was a terrorist attack" - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

He's a racist or a xenophobe that has decided alone to kill people just because of their religion. That's bad enough.

Do you disagree that the attack on Parliament Hill here in Ottawa wasn't "terrorism" then?

Alexandre Bissonette felt "inspired" by President Trump's so called 'Travel Ban' and fired upon Canadians in a mosque to attempt and discourage Canadians' right to practice the Islamic religion.

He's a lone wolf terrorist, just like Michael Zehaf-Bibeau (the guy that shot up Parliament).

[Deleted]

What a bad alt-right!

Good Alt-right!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Don't you just love liberal selective outrage? Nazi war-criminals killing civilians left n right = ok
One lone nut in Canada = "omg Hitler timez r upon us!"

[Frontenac]

What isn't clear about what the Prime Minister said the day after the attack?

"Make no mistake – this was a terrorist attack" - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

Justin Trudeau is no jurist. Bissonnette was not charged for terrorism. Yet.

Do you disagree that the attack on Parliament Hill here in Ottawa wasn't "terrorism" then?

Alexandre Bissonette felt "inspired" by President Trump's so called 'Travel Ban' and fired upon Canadians in a mosque to attempt and discourage Canadians' right to practice the Islamic religion.

He's a lone wolf terrorist, just like Michael Zehaf-Bibeau (the guy that shot up Parliament).

The attack on the federal Parliament was a terrorist attack since Zehaf-Bibeau linked what he did with ISIS and ISIS confirmed it.

And no one can say yet what truly inspired Bissonnette to act, if Trump's decree was a catalyst or not. He certainly did this out of hate, but we do not know much more. Bissonnette is more like Dylann Roof than Zehaf-Bibeau. No one ever said that Roof was a "terrorist."

The only reason the term "terrorist" is used in Bissonnette's case is because the victims are Muslim, and that it is a good occasion to push the idea (which is true) that not all terrorists are Muslim and all Muslim are not terrorist. But saying that Bissonnette is a terrorist remains false, in my opinion. Unless the police finds new evidence that could prove otherwise.

[Jastall]

I mean, seriously.

Laws aren't intended nor expected to prevent 100% of all instances. It's meant to disincentivize that action by making it punishable, and provide a path to punish those who break that law. The existence of an illegal weapon being used in a crime does not mean gun control laws are "impotent". That these 5 deaths in a city of 500,000 are huge exceptions to the general lack of murders in that same city, by guns or otherwise, is a demonstration of how well those laws work.

Quebec City is about twice as big as Buffalo, NY, in terms of population. Quebec City's homicide rate is about 0.7 per 100,000 people; some years go by without a single murder. Buffalo has a homicide rate of 23.22 per 100,000. That's more than 30 times the rate of homicide. If you think Canada's gun control legislation isn't part of why our homicide rates are so low, you're deluding yourself (part of the reason; I'm well aware it isn't the whole answer).

To be absolutely fair, Québec is also a very middle-class heavy city, with loads of government workers and relatively well-off suburbs. These aren't the kind of settings that promote much violence; Montréal has a fairly higher murder rate (albeit it's still low compared to many places in the US).

Other than that I of course do agree that Breitbart taking this particular bit of information away from the event is just pure... well, Breitbart. I remember a time where we considered Fox News the worst of the worst. Man, had we seen nothing yet.

No new informations of note about the shooter since then. He's going to go through the judicial machine and be punished as he should. May he only leave prison in a very long time, and see that his act has not changed our society as he thought it would.

[minteK917]

No new informations of note about the shooter since then. He's going to go through the judicial machine and be punished as he should. May he only leave prison in a very long time, and see that his act has not changed our society as he thought it would.

He faces 150 years before conditional liberation lol. So hes gona die in prison pretty much.

[SidFwuff]

Justin Trudeau is no jurist. Bissonnette was not charged for terrorism. Yet.

Oh please.

The Prime Minister, the Premier of Québec, and the RCMP have all stated, on record, that Bisonnette is a terrorist.

Are you going to be defending the FLQ and the IRA next?

The attack on the federal Parliament was a terrorist attack since Zehaf-Bibeau linked what he did with ISIS and ISIS confirmed it.

I live in Ottawa. ISIL did not "confirm it", let alone sanction it just like they had no part in Martin Rouleau's attack in Québec. Rouleau, on impulse, ran his car into a couple of Canadian soldiers, remember.

An attack with actual ISIL involvement would have more than one person just waking up some morning, grabbing his gun, and marching down to the hill.

Which is why both Rouleau and Zehaf-Bibeau are "ISIL-inspired terrorists"

And no one can say yet what truly inspired Bissonnette to act, if Trump's decree was a catalyst or not. He certainly did this out of hate, but we do not know much more. Bissonnette is more like Dylann Roof than Zehaf-Bibeau. No one ever said that Roof was a "terrorist."

First of all, Roof isn't a Canadian. A better example would be Justin Bourque, who fired on Mounties. The RCMP ultimately dropped terrorism charges due to the fact that there was no ideology or objective behind his shootings.

That doesn't appear to be the case with Bissonnette- who, by the way, is alive and in custody. And able to speak for himself.

The only reason the term "terrorist" is used in Bissonnette's case is because the victims are Muslim, and that it is a good occasion to push the idea (which is true) that not all terrorists are Muslim and all Muslim are not terrorist.

What?

[Frontenac]

Oh please.

The Prime Minister, the Premier of Québec, and the RCMP have all stated, on record, that Bisonnette is a terrorist.

As I said, he was not charged by the justice system for terrorism yet.

Are you going to be defending the FLQ and the IRA next?

Don't be stupid. I'm not defending Bissonnette. He's a murderer, that's clear. And the FLQ and IRA were terrorist organisations. I will not defend them.

I live in Ottawa. ISIL did not "confirm it", let alone sanction it just like they had no part in Martin Rouleau's attack in Québec. Rouleau, on impulse, ran his car into a couple of Canadian soldiers, remember.

An attack with actual ISIL involvement would have more than one person just waking up some morning, grabbing his gun, and marching down to the hill.

Which is why both Rouleau and Zehaf-Bibeau are "ISIL-inspired terrorists"

Yet, they did act because of ISIS. Zehaf-Bibeau recorded a video in which he said : "This is in retaliation for Afghanistan and because Harper [Prime Minister Stephen Harper] wants to send his troops to Iraq. Canada's officially become one of our enemies by fighting and bombing us and creating a lot of terror in our countries and killing us and killing our innocents. So, just aiming to hit some soldiers just to show that you're not even safe in your own land, and you gotta be careful. We'll not cease until you guys decide to be a peaceful country and stay to your own and stop going to other countries and stop occupying and killing the righteous of us who are trying to bring back religious law in our countries. Thank you." So you have it : a violent and bloody act to support a political cause and force the governement to stop some action. That's terrorism. Bissonnette does not really fit that bill. Yet.

First of all, Roof isn't a Canadian.

So what? During a prayer service on June 17, 2015, Dylann Roof attacked an Afro-American church, killing nine persons, only because they were black. During a prayer service on January 29, 2017, Alexandre Bissonnette attacked a mosque, killing six persons, only because they were muslim. What's the difference?

A better example would be Justin Bourque, who fired on Mounties. The RCMP ultimately dropped terrorism charges due to the fact that there was no ideology or objective behind his shootings.

That doesn't appear to be the case with Bissonnette- who, by the way, is alive and in custody. And able to speak for himself.

And we'll know the end word of this story during the trial.

What?

Was there something unclear about what I wrote? Maybe my English is not good enough.

[Jastall]

As far as I remember, ''terrorism'' isn't an actual charge in Canadian law. The most you can get is ''plotting to commit terrorist acts'', which of course requires further investigation. As of now, Bissonnette only faces murder and attempted murder charges.

In the end, the difference is one of legal semantics as far as I'm concerned. He murdered these people and should pay the price, regardless of whenever he did so on impulse (which seems unlikely considering how prepared he was, and witnesses describe him coldly murdering people) or if he was motivated by some ideology or another.

[sarahtasher]

What a bad alt-right!

Good Alt-right!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Don't you just love liberal selective outrage? Nazi war-criminals killing civilians left n right = ok
One lone nut in Canada = "omg Hitler timez r upon us!"

I really don't know why the alt-right does not love the Ukrainians néo-nazis : after all, the only thing the actual Ukrainians collaborators ever did is the numero uno item on the alt-right program, brutally murder Jews.. I also don't understand with RT viewers care that much about the said Ukrainians collaborators, since any article on RT end up with people screaming about how the Jews conspire against them.

[Hif]

Well, remember you shouldn't insult their prophet or you'll make more terrorism. (Seriously, people believe this). So by this logic you shouldn't insult straight white males because you'll make more "far-right" terrorism (someone correctly pointed out muslims are right-wing).

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Obviously you can fight both at the same time, by denouncing neo-nazis and educate against their ideology, while doing the same for muslim extremists.

Straight white men are just insecure children who can't understand they aren't special. Those who espouse neo-nazi views are frankly scum and should be punched in the face as Americans did in the second world war.

[Wildberry]

should be punched in the face as Americans did in the second world war.

Citizens with rights and protections are totally comparable to soldiers of a foreign country that we were at war with :^)

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Straight white men are just insecure children who can't understand they aren't special. Those who espouse neo-nazi views are frankly scum and should be punched in the face as Americans did in the second world war.

Change "Straight", "White" and "Men" for anything else. How does that make you sound?

Don't be like that.

He faces 150 years before conditional liberation lol. So hes gona die in prison pretty much.

That is if he's deemed psychologically stable to undergo a process.

But he should not come back from this. What he committed, even without the political weight of his actions, is simply abhorrent.