It seems that destro needs a buff for raiding

[Baconeggcheese]

I think the question is more "what's the penalty for not playing perfectly?"

That's an entirely different conversation from what's being proposed atm. "Destro ST is not viable and needs a buff" is a very different thing vs "Destro's skill floor is too low and needs to be raised".

I do think destro has become a worse designed spec over the last 2 xpacs tbh, mop destro sans KJC being shenanigans was easily one of the best designed specs the game has ever seen in terms of "easy to learn, hard to master". Its unfortunate they moved away from or straight up removed a lot of what made the spec that way with this xpac.

- - - Updated - - -

Cry Havoc was already removed in latest PTR build. We have no idea what our new trait will be at this point.

I saw that it was "under construction" but I'm not holding my breath quite yet

[clevin]

That's an entirely different conversation from what's being proposed atm. "Destro ST is not viable and needs a buff" is a very different thing vs "Destro's skill floor is too low and needs to be raised".

No, I'm getting at the varying perceptions of how well the spec does. It may be that, played nearly perfectly with good gear (and esp with the right legendaries) it is very competitive but that when played well but not perfectly and/or without helpful legendaries it feels very different.
Each person would think they're right and not get the other perspective.

I think the RNG of gaining shards PLUS the RNG of having CB modifiers range from zero to 40+% also hurt how the spec plays and is perceived. If someone is flooded with shards and thus can cast CB a lot more that masks the shortcomings of the design but if you're not flooded with shards and, in fact, can go 10-20 seconds without any shards aside from those given by Conflag AND some of the CBs you cast end up with a low % modified from Mastery, the spec will feel VERY different.

[Dayoni]

Isn't one warlock needed for all progression fights just to reduce the run back time for the next pull?

Also seems pretty good to have a gateway on Krosus.

[Bidis]

Instead of pure number buffs or a complete rewrite of the class as mentioned sometimes, wouldn't it be easier to just reduce the cost of CB and RoF by one crystal? Do you think it would make us op?

[Turturin the Warlock]

Instead of pure number buffs or a complete rewrite of the class as mentioned sometimes, wouldn't it be easier to just reduce the cost of CB and RoF by one crystal? Do you think it would make us op?

Yes doubling the damage of chaos bolts and giving RoF 33% more damage would make us op

[Bidis]

Yes doubling the damage of chaos bolts and giving RoF 33% more damage would make us op

Yes, I wasn't clear I meant without any intermittent buffs that is. My thought process is not very objective as my current crystal generation is bad and feels like I am starving at times.

[Violetti]

Yes, I wasn't clear I meant without any intermittent buffs that is. My thought process is not very objective as my current crystal generation is bad and feels like I am starving at times.

get 4p and some haste and you have too much

the last thing destro needs is more chaosbolts

[clevin]

get 4p and some haste and you have too much

the last thing destro needs is more chaosbolts

The problem with this answer is that 1) it makes us rely on gear and not having 4pc is a huge step down (or Feretory, etc). 2) what about next tier? Unless they just keep the bonus, we're out of luck in T20?

it's never good to have a spec reliant on a particular set of gear to perform well. Even with 25% haste, there are stretches where I starve for shards...

[Bidis]

get 4p and some haste and you have too much

the last thing destro needs is more chaosbolts

I understand what you mean. I am sitting on around 31% haste at the moment which I believe is pretty high for my gear. Thing is there are times, mostly in AOE situations, that I will either have too many or too few shards to spend (it's usually the latter). It's probably more a matter of consistency in generating them than the actual cost. Having 4p is not a viable solution from my point of view as gear comes and goes.

I generally find our AOE lackluster in most situations, you can't burst like other classes and you can't be certain you will be able to sustain long term damage. I was doing a +12 the other day with a fellow warlock who had Feretory and was talented in SC. His RoF was his most damaging ability and was able to cast it a lot (even for 2-3 targets). Still I find this behavior too gear-dependent (was surprised that a 10% proc would make such a difference) rather than stemming from the class itself. I still believe 3 shards is too much for RoF's damage output, including the fact that is ground targeted(tank moves => bye bye damage) and basically another DoT(faster ticks perhaps?).

Single target, yeah a less expensive chaos bolt is not a solution, I agree. It probably needs a bit more love damage-wise, possibly our filler as well.

[HeroicMythic]

Let us evaluate how viable a destruction warlock is in heroic nightmare raids by using the available data/parses from warcraftlogs. Out of the top 200 warlock parses, how many of them are affliction, demonolgy, and destruction? Let us also shine some light on how the 5th best (dps wise) destruction warlock is competing with other damage dealer classes on each boss.


Skorpyron:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 195, demo: 4, destro: 1
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 0

Chronomatic Anomaly:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 107, demo: 80, destro: 13
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 25 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 1226
2017-02-06 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo:, destro: 19 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 959

Trilliax:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 137, demo: 57, destro: 6
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 14 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 2327 lol
2017-02-06 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 8 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 1915

Spellblade Aluriel:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 104, demo: 95, destro: 1
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 8

Krosus:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 91, demo: 98, destro: 11
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 15 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 2289
2017-02-06 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 6++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 2469

Tichondrius:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 140, demo: 35, destro: 5
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 12

Atraeus:
2017-01-20 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 159, demo: 41, destro: 0 (zero)
Really? 0?
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 2 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 1204
2017-02-06 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 6++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 830

Botanist:
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 51 , demo:66 , destro: 83 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 552 (just wait till more shadows (90% of rankings) get to that boss)

Elisande:
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 10 , demo: 18 , destro: 172 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 14

Gul'dan:
2017-01-28 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: 59 , demo: 69 , destro: 72 ++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 358
2017-02-06 heroic out of top 200 available wl parses: affli: , demo: , destro: 67++ the 5th best destro is overall at position: 307

Keep in mind that there are still some awesome warlock players who play destruction. Just imagine what would happen to the statics if those few players would not be counted.



Conclusion: The data of the first three weeks of raiding in hc nighthold indicates that destruction warlock is total garbage in 7 out of 10 bossfights. It is a complete failure. The lack of adequate performance is hideous and can be easily backed up by numbers. However, in 1 of the 3 "last" bossfights (Elisande) destruction warlock is among the best speccs(frost DK, assa Rogue, Shadow). Only few % difference between those speccs. In the 2 remaining bossfights (Botanist and Gul'dan) destruction warlock is doing ok. At Botanist 6th position out of 24 dd speccs. Gul'dan 17th position out of 24 dd speccs. So in conclusion, if you play destruction warlock, you will be 7 * total garbage, 1 * among the better speccs, and 2 * in the mid of the pack.

[Deleted]

Let us evaluate how viable a destruction warlock is in heroic nightmare raids by using the available data/parses from warcraftlogs. Out of the top 200 warlock parses, how many of them are affliction, demonolgy, and destruction? Let us also shine some light on how the 5th best (dps wise) destruction warlock is competing with other damage dealer classes on each boss.

-snip-

Conclusion: The data of the first three weeks of raiding in hc nighthold indicates that destruction warlock is total garbage in 7 out of 10 bossfights. It is a complete failure. The lack of adequate performance is hideous and can be easily backed up by numbers. However, in 1 of the 3 "last" bossfights (Elisande) destruction warlock is among the best speccs(frost DK, assa Rogue, Shadow). Only few % difference between those speccs. In the 2 remaining bossfights (Botanist and Gul'dan) destruction warlock is doing ok. At Botanist 6th position out of 24 dd speccs. Gul'dan 17th position out of 24 dd speccs. So in conclusion, if you play destruction warlock, you will be 7 * total garbage, 1 * among the better speccs, and 2 * in the mid of the pack.

and that is why on both Gul'Dan mythic kills from Serenity and Exorsus there are all classes in each of them, but not a single warlock.

Destruction is not a good specc, in general warlocks don't have much going for them, they are viable in all situations unless you are a world first guild, and I don't expect it to change with LEGION.

A 9% buff to Chaos Bolt, which resulted in a 3%~ overall buff simple wasn't enough to offset the huge deficit.

I am sticking with my warlock. I am not in a top 10 world guild. I do raid mythic NH and its enough to be competitive, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the trend of top guilds not taking any warlocks with them continue.

However for everyone else warlocks are "good enough" and if you are a top player at a top guild you simply switch to a different class or get all 3 warlock speccs up to par.

Honestly the best advise and I don't mean it in a whiny or surrending kind of way is for people that want to be best simply switch to rogue, DH or shadow priest.
I don't expect any big changes in the next 6 months for warlocks and in 3-4 weeks you can get a fresh char to ilvl 895+ easily.

I will stick to my WL though, because fuck AP farm ^^

[HeroicMythic]

I guess emotions confused you. How can you say that destro is viable or "good enough" after you have seen the data?

Since I do not have access to us forums, it would be great if someone else posted the data and conclusion on the US forums.

[Baconeggcheese]

How can you say that destro is viable or "good enough" after you have seen the data?

Because I have been destro on 17 / 20 bosses thus far this xpac, and I will be destro for the next 3.

[Violetti]

I guess emotions confused you. How can you say that destro is viable or "good enough" after you have seen the data?

Since I do not have access to us forums, it would be great if someone else posted the data and conclusion on the US forums.

I wonder why method is running 2 destro locks on many bosses

[Baconeggcheese]

I wonder why method is running 2 destro locks on many bosses

The generic response you're going to get is "that's why they lost!"

[Uzkin]

Yeah, I wonder which guild gets the world first mythic Gul'dan hard mode: defeat Gul'dan on mythic difficulty with at least one warlock in the raid.

[Baconeggcheese]

Yeah, I wonder which guild gets the world first mythic Gul'dan hard mode: defeat Gul'dan on mythic difficulty with at least one warlock in the raid.

Well there's only 2 options and iirc they both run locks, so most likely its method.

[Gaidax]

Method lost race badly and brought 2 warlocks... Coincidence?

[Deleted]

I'm a bit bitter. I love warlocks. Even in that state i do enjoy playing my destro warlock. But i'd like to feel a bit stronger and competitive no matter the fight we're on. I'd like more synergy in the gameplay too.

I can't wait for the warlock update that will never come :kappa:

[Uzkin]

Method lost race badly and brought 2 warlocks... Coincidence?

Looks like they had to drop one of the warlocks in order to get the Gul'dan kill. But it still counts, they brought one. WF hard mode kill is theirs!