Not to be that guy but..[Ret gripe]

[Ihas]

Thank god they "balanced" Ret Pallies before mythic eh?


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#

[Super Kami Dende]

I see so many threads saying Survival is shit tier DPS. but then I look at these percentiles and it says greatly otherwise.

[Ihas]

- - - Updated - - -

I see so many threads saying Survival is shit tier DPS. but then I look at these percentiles and it says greatly otherwise.

high floor low ceiling. when it comes to Surv hunters it looks like.. the low ceiling refers to their max dps output, which is at the bopttom of the list if you change it from 75th perceintile to max dps, meaning the top parses are extremely shit compared to the top parses of the other classes. However, high floor, meaning that even the noobiest of the noob surv hunters can achieve decent dps without much skill/gear.

[Super Kami Dende]

- - - Updated - - -



high floor low ceiling. when it comes to Surv hunters it looks like.. the low ceiling refers to their max dps output, which is at the bopttom of the list if you change it from 75th perceintile to max dps, meaning the top parses are extremely shit compared to the top parses of the other classes. However, high floor, meaning that even the noobiest of the noob surv hunters can achieve decent dps without much skill/gear.

Ahh, yeah that makes sense.

[Icoblablubb]

another one of this useless threads :O OMGOMGOMG log says this so my class must be shit OMGOMGOMG.. and in reality Palas do GREAT

[Super Kami Dende]

another one of this useless threads :O OMGOMGOMG log says this so my class must be shit OMGOMGOMG.. and in reality Palas do GREAT

Well to be fair, the only classes under Pally DPS wise are Classes that can change to a different DPS spec that is much higher.

[Ihas]

another one of this useless threads :O OMGOMGOMG log says this so my class must be shit OMGOMGOMG.. and in reality Palas do GREAT

hey man i said it was a gripe but these logs definitely have value the first two weeks of NH devs were using these numbers to depict that we were too strong and decided to nerf us. Its not the end all be all but they hold some weight here.

[Hablelol]

- - - Updated - - -



high floor low ceiling. when it comes to Surv hunters it looks like.. the low ceiling refers to their max dps output, which is at the bopttom of the list if you change it from 75th perceintile to max dps, meaning the top parses are extremely shit compared to the top parses of the other classes. However, high floor, meaning that even the noobiest of the noob surv hunters can achieve decent dps without much skill/gear.

I don't generally reply to mis-information because there's already so many people itching to fight on this forum, BUT no. If you look there's like 40 parses, and you're talking mythic Nighthold on the 2nd week (IE: still pretty fucking hard). Survival actually has a higher skill ceiling than most classes (we all know no class is actually hard) but because it's a melee spec that can be ranged AND do better DPS the only ones guilds allow to raid mythic (during progression) know they're good players. Survival has a low potential DPS ceiling which is why you see it drop once you're comparing good players to good players. That and they don't have quite as many ways to maximize DPS through small nuances (the rotation as a whole is the difficult part, but it's odd in the fact that you basically can't not do it right without doing absolutely NO DPS, so it's either you're good or you're bad, there's no real mediocre). Make sense?

[Deleted]

another one of this useless threads :O OMGOMGOMG log says this so my class must be shit OMGOMGOMG.. and in reality Palas do GREAT

That is absolutely daft. Are you claiming the logs are lying? Or is it more likely that you are letting personal experiences affect your analysis? Like blizz, are you falling prey to the lies of the retribution passive?
Yeah everything is fine along as you sacrifice a few people to buff the ret. Oh what's that? In mythic you can't take many if any kills? Results in clear sight.

[Deleted]

First week people linking heroic logs saying "OMG WE SO STRONK". Then link mythic logs, conveniently after a very tiny nerf, to say "OMG WE SO BAD".

Its almost like ret is very good at padding dps on irrelevent faceroll fights, and middle of the pack on fights where they actually have to follow tactics..

[Deleted]

First week people linking heroic logs saying "OMG WE SO STRONK". Then link mythic logs, conveniently after a very tiny nerf, to say "OMG WE SO BAD".

Its almost like ret is very good at padding dps on irrelevent faceroll fights, and middle of the pack on fights where they actually have to follow tactics..

The crusade nerf has nothing to do with it (not much anyways). The nerf to CoF and the retribution passive most of all, do.

I do love how you try to peg this on the players like they are at fault for class balance. I'm afraid players don't dictate numbers and class design.

The fact that this happened is proof that Ret is unbalanced and something urgently needs fixing. Balanced classes don't shoot up and down depeding on the difficulty.

- - - Updated - - -

If you look at the 90th percentile the situation is even more pronounced.

[Deleted]

- - - Updated - - -



high floor low ceiling. when it comes to Surv hunters it looks like.. the low ceiling refers to their max dps output, which is at the bopttom of the list if you change it from 75th perceintile to max dps, meaning the top parses are extremely shit compared to the top parses of the other classes. However, high floor, meaning that even the noobiest of the noob surv hunters can achieve decent dps without much skill/gear.

It might also be related with there being only 37 survival hunter parses. Also, take a look at heroic if you want useful data. Right now there's too few people who did mythic for the data to be usable.

[dnicks17]

It might also be related with there being only 37 survival hunter parses. Also, take a look at heroic if you want useful data. Right now there's too few people who did mythic for the data to be usable.

Heroic isn't really that useful anymore.

I'm in a very average M guild and heroic is already in full screw around territory(i.e. not interrupting a single Power Overwhelming, trying to actually kill people with Krosus orb, trying to leave people frozen on Spellblade, etc).

[Deleted]

Heroic been already overgeared thanks to blizz. 3 raids so far and we run through them like lfr heroes. It's a nice thing to run mythic+ for the vanity of it and maybe some gear boost for alts or new mains but 3rd raid instance and we still kinda run through them to maximise potential gear wise. Instead of doing an ilvl inflation to raid instances to deem mythic + gear irrelevant they try to balance classes around people who have a dozen potential gear sources and try to max out everything in a way that was not possible in the past. Hi developers / applaud

[Spodumene]

I only have my guild to compare my dps against but I switched to my paladin literally the day 7.1.5 released because I hated the changes to how MM felt. I'm still 5-10 ilvls below the top dps in my guild and regularly give them a run for their money.

[Fatali]

I see so many threads saying Survival is shit tier DPS. but then I look at these percentiles and it says greatly otherwise.

Not to be that guy, but don't blindly follow shiny bars on a graph. Especially not the one that's been linked. It's from Mythic, and Mythic hasn't even been cleared yet.

Survival Hunter data is pretty out of wack, considering that there's barely any Surival Hunters doing Mythic.

Some tasty datas:

Skorpyron: 58 Surv Hunters
Chronomatic Anomaly: 26 Surv Hunters
Trilliax: 18 Surv Hunters
Spellblade Aluriel: 1 Surv Hunter. No, really, just the one has ever killed Spellblade Aluriel on Mythic.
Krosus: 1 Surv Hunter. Just the one, again.

No survival hunters on any other kills.

The lesson to be learned here is absolutely not to trust aggregated top "x" percentile scores where there's a representation of one person in some bosses. One is not a good sample size for anything. Speaking of one, there's still one boss that's alive. How do you expect to get realistic performance scores on Nighthold bosses when nobody's even killed one of them?

Let people actually kill the bosses before crying wolf. Please, you're only hurting yourself.

If, however, you do insist on watching pretty bars; change the difficulty level down a notch, from Mythic to Heroic, and see how much Survival Hunters drop down. That's more accurate. While you're at it, see that shiny pink bar almost at the top. That's also more accurate.

[Deleted]

Heroic isn't really that useful anymore.

I'm in a very average M guild and heroic is already in full screw around territory(i.e. not interrupting a single Power Overwhelming, trying to actually kill people with Krosus orb, trying to leave people frozen on Spellblade, etc).

Screwing around affects everyone in much the same way so that won't affect logs that much. What affects logs is things like extra adds, bigger health on adds, actually having to do mechanics, and other such things. That is obviously going to affect classes differently as they are better at various things i.e. ST/burst AoE/sustained AoE/etc. but that won't affect things that much. Sure, it will change the order of classes because balance druids get to have DoTs on more targets while some ST spec can't compete but that doesn't mean that the spec is useless or fucked. If you want decent results wait for decent representation of specs. To get representation you need to either use HC or use Mythic once a good number of people have killed it. Goign through mythic bosses with a "decent" number of people having killed them you have at 75th percentile

Skorpyron - 7/25
Anomaly - 10/24
Trilliax - 11/24

which obviously makes ret better than average in terms of DPS. Pretty balanced i'd say.

[Ellarielle]

I only have my guild to compare my dps against but I switched to my paladin literally the day 7.1.5 released because I hated the changes to how MM felt. I'm still 5-10 ilvls below the top dps in my guild and regularly give them a run for their money.

lol. My hubby is playing a MM hunter this xpac and I went with a ret pally. I'm about 5 ilvls ahead and he destroys me. He's playing in the top 90% though according to our logs and I'm at like 50% (bahaha...). He decided to lvl his pally (old main - usually prot though) and it playing around with ret to help me. I'm getting better but it's been a process. Overall I still feel like pallies are pretty strong. I'm usually #2 on damage with my guild (#1 on some fights).

[Guzrud]

That is absolutely daft. Are you claiming the logs are lying? Or is it more likely that you are letting personal experiences affect your analysis? Like blizz, are you falling prey to the lies of the retribution passive?
Yeah everything is fine along as you sacrifice a few people to buff the ret. Oh what's that? In mythic you can't take many if any kills? Results in clear sight.

You see you are being a bit to aggresive here without really looking into the data completely. People have forever missunderstood what this statistics page actually is showing and used it as some sort of basis for an arguement that they are sure is accurate when its actually anything but. I am sure there is some special formula that tabulates this data for them but so many people have looked at this graph, taken it as absolute gospel, then come to many forums to cry about class balance or how their class is under performing.

Lets look at some real ranks for Ret Paladins currently.

Let me show you how completely off-base that report really can be when you only use it. Here are the top 10 parses for Survival Hunter vs Ret Paladin for the first 3 bosses. Each number is in 1000's

SURV RET SURV RET SUR RET
1089 1458 847 1004 700 763
1084 1458 798 932 687 747
1083 1401 787 930 680 731
1080 1373 758 923 676 711
1075 1357 752 918 645 706
1067 1352 745 906 644 703
1061 1333 744 884 642 702
1028 1316 716 880 615 698
1046 1310 692 873 610 696
1039 1306 684 870 610 696
1065.2 1366.4 752.3 912 650.9 715.3

At the bottom you have the average dps of the top 10 parses from each spec. So on Skorpyron the top 10 Ret Paladins are ~28.2% ahead in dps over a survival hunter on Anomoly Ret Paladins are~21.2% ahead in dps and on Trilliax Ret paladins are ~10% ahead.

The only other fight with a survival hunter even having a log is on Krosus there is 1 parse and its 721k vs ret paladin @ 736k as the top parse.

So here is the real question........If survival is literally behind ret on every single fight by a significant margin save Krosus which it is still behind ~2% how is it rated as the best spec in NH while Ret is ranked so low? You have to actually understand what you are looking at and the data that goes into a chart before you can start complaining about your class or flaming people for having an opinion.

Here it is as honestly and truthful as anyone will ever give it to you.......

Unless you are in a top 20 World guild if you played a Retribution Paladin to your characters absolute maximum potential and you have comperable gear you will be one of the top dps Players in your Guild. If you are in US 200-2000 guild in almost all scenarios the best player does the most damage not the best class. Now sometimes the best player is playing the best class and that increases the edge however people put so much emphasis on class balance when in reality most of the issue comes from them just not being 100% compitent with their character.

This was a lazy thread to begin with and was just derailed with more terrible information derived from a terrible chart, without understanding what that person was actually even looking at.

[Deleted]

You see you are being a bit to aggresive here without really looking into the data completely. People have forever missunderstood what this statistics page actually is showing and used it as some sort of basis for an arguement that they are sure is accurate when its actually anything but. I am sure there is some special formula that tabulates this data for them but so many people have looked at this graph, taken it as absolute gospel, then come to many forums to cry about class balance or how their class is under performing.

Lets look at some real ranks for Ret Paladins currently.

Let me show you how completely off-base that report really can be when you only use it. Here are the top 10 parses for Survival Hunter vs Ret Paladin for the first 3 bosses. Each number is in 1000's

SURV RET SURV RET SUR RET
1089 1458 847 1004 700 763
1084 1458 798 932 687 747
1083 1401 787 930 680 731
1080 1373 758 923 676 711
1075 1357 752 918 645 706
1067 1352 745 906 644 703
1061 1333 744 884 642 702
1028 1316 716 880 615 698
1046 1310 692 873 610 696
1039 1306 684 870 610 696
1065.2 1366.4 752.3 912 650.9 715.3

At the bottom you have the average dps of the top 10 parses from each spec. So on Skorpyron the top 10 Ret Paladins are ~28.2% ahead in dps over a survival hunter on Anomoly Ret Paladins are~21.2% ahead in dps and on Trilliax Ret paladins are ~10% ahead.

The only other fight with a survival hunter even having a log is on Krosus there is 1 parse and its 721k vs ret paladin @ 736k as the top parse.

So here is the real question........If survival is literally behind ret on every single fight by a significant margin save Krosus which it is still behind ~2% how is it rated as the best spec in NH while Ret is ranked so low? You have to actually understand what you are looking at and the data that goes into a chart before you can start complaining about your class or flaming people for having an opinion.

Here it is as honestly and truthful as anyone will ever give it to you.......

Unless you are in a top 20 World guild if you played a Retribution Paladin to your characters absolute maximum potential and you have comperable gear you will be one of the top dps Players in your Guild. If you are in US 200-2000 guild in almost all scenarios the best player does the most damage not the best class. Now sometimes the best player is playing the best class and that increases the edge however people put so much emphasis on class balance when in reality most of the issue comes from them just not being 100% compitent with their character.

This was a lazy thread to begin with and was just derailed with more terrible information derived from a terrible chart, without understanding what that person was actually even looking at.

The cases on my guild or your guild particular situation are irrelevant. Whats relevant are the numbers in comparison to each other under the same circunstances.
I don't know why everyone is getting so focused in survival, because not only it has few logs but it isn't what this thread is about.

What happens with Ret is simple: they are one of the top specs in heroic agregate parses and are one of the weakest on mythic. This obviously means they are unbalanced and need fixing. Is this not clear to you? Is your damage values compared to others in the most competent scenario shooting up and down depending on the difficulty something you can consider normal? Because i don't think it is.

So, survivals low logs have nothing to do with Ret wich has 2k+ logs, as do other specs, or in representative ammounts. Survival is irrelevant to this topic. It changes nothing to the Ret situation wether its on top or bottom.