Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Jaronicity]

I ran all of last night up to Elisande in heroic with DfA. It's rather decent to say the least, but excels on multiple add fights.

1.7mil DPS on Skorpyron ( parsed 9th best Sub rogue in Heroic Skorp overall ); with 670+K directly on the boss. Also parsed 91% on Krosus with it, despite it being pure Single target.

On elisande though...it ended badly for me. Tried to squeeze in one with finality before she teleports and ended up dead.
* Yes, DfA consumes Evis finality to empower it

snip

I know there aren't a lot of Sub parses, but still, killin' it, man. I used it in a pug last night for the first 4 bosses (before I left) and I was surprised at how much better it was than I thought considering it's been pretty meh in PvE since it's inception (other than the Combat bug in early WoD). I can see it beinga good alternative to the standard WM build and I will probably run it a bit more now. Even on Krosus that's good news (it won't land you in his hitbox and subsequently kill you? lol)

[Discostick]

I ran all of last night up to Elisande in heroic with DfA. It's rather decent to say the least, but excels on multiple add fights.

1.7mil DPS on Skorpyron ( parsed 9th best Sub rogue in Heroic Skorp overall ); with 670+K directly on the boss. Also parsed 91% on Krosus with it, despite it being pure Single target.

On elisande though...it ended badly for me. Tried to squeeze in one with finality before she teleports and ended up dead.
* Yes, DfA consumes Evis finality to empower it

https://gfycat.com/EasygoingGiddyKingsnake

Do you have 4pc? I want to try DFA but currently have no 4pc to make up for all the free cp I'd be missing.

[Jaronicity]

What talents is everyone running with in M+? I'm using Anticipation and MoS for trash (still not fully sold on MoS but I'm not a huge fan of Weaponmaster anyway), but even though the guide suggests Alacrity for AoE I'm sticking with Premeditation because otherwise boss fights feel horrible and not having a way to maintain Alacrity between pulls like Outlaw does has caused it to fall off too many times for my liking.

Since my little conversation with Valentyn, in lower M+ I've been using MoS, Anticipation, and DfA. I think the aoe part of DfA takes into account all combo points so it will do that damage as 10 points and then 5 pt eviscerate at the end. A bug for sure, but I'll use it so I can fly around. I used to run Alacrity and MfD and got ok results with that as well, but it did really suck if Alacrity fell off before a boss got pulled. Will likely only use it if adds will be long lasting otherwise I like Premed. Also makes me wish they'd change Enveloping Shadows or w/e it's called.

[Valentyn]

I know there aren't a lot of Sub parses, but still, killin' it, man. I used it in a pug last night for the first 4 bosses (before I left) and I was surprised at how much better it was than I thought considering it's been pretty meh in PvE since it's inception (other than the Combat bug in early WoD). I can see it beinga good alternative to the standard WM build and I will probably run it a bit more now. Even on Krosus that's good news (it won't land you in his hitbox and subsequently kill you? lol)

It's a shame so few people are playing Sub, although with the nerf to the legendary boots, Master of Shadows + Subtlety I can see why more are playing Assa. Assa is even getting a flat +4% dmg buff to abilities soon.

Even so, I really enjoy the spec, and I started off as Outlaw, and Assa, after going through all of WoD as a Sub rogue.

Luckily DfA doesn't get you killed on Krosus ( I haven't tested when he smashes the bridge though- there I sprint at4-6 seconds before the smash and get to trigger Flickering Shadows ), but it can one Elisande. It's one fight it's not too great on, due to mostly 1-2 adds on her, and that you can get killed by the Nightwell itself is she ports when you jump up.

A gif of it happening to me last night.
https://gfycat.com/EasygoingGiddyKingsnake

When it come to Alacrity, the only two bosses I think it's worth using on is Skorp, and Botanist. Since you focus entirely on a main target, so your stacks don't really fall off that easily.
Otherwise you stick with Premed for the extra combo points.

Also Eviscerate Finality is consumed with DfA, so getting to 9-10 CP, Evis'ing and then popping DfA is good for extra damage.

Do you have 4pc? I want to try DFA but currently have no 4pc to make up for all the free cp I'd be missing.

I do have 4 set. I sacrificed an 890 and 885+socket for two 875 normal pieces, but it's really helped.
It allows the rotation to flow a lot better.

[Discostick]

I do have 4 set. I sacrificed an 890 and 885+socket for two 875 normal pieces, but it's really helped.
It allows the rotation to flow a lot better.

Hmpf, so I can't help but think it'll be a decrease in performance without it.

It's good to know DFA is doing so well with 4pc though, I'm excited to get my last piece


[LOOKING AT YOU FUCKING KROSUS DROP MY SHIT YOU FUCK]

[Jaronicity]

It's a shame so few people are playing Sub, although with the nerf to the legendary boots, Master of Shadows + Subtlety I can see why more are playing Assa. Assa is even getting a flat +4% dmg buff to abilities soon.

Even so, I really enjoy the spec, and I started off as Outlaw, and Assa, after going through all of WoD as a Sub rogue.

Luckily DfA doesn't get you killed on Krosus ( I haven't tested when he smashes the bridge though- there I sprint at4-6 seconds before the smash and get to trigger Flickering Shadows ), but it can one Elisande. It's one fight it's not too great on, due to mostly 1-2 adds on her, and that you can get killed by the Nightwell itself is she ports when you jump up.

A gif of it happening to me last night.
https://gfycat.com/EasygoingGiddyKingsnake

When it come to Alacrity, the only two bosses I think it's worth using on is Skorp, and Botanist. Since you focus entirely on a main target, so your stacks don't really fall off that easily.
Otherwise you stick with Premed for the extra combo points.

Also Eviscerate Finality is consumed with DfA, so getting to 9-10 CP, Evis'ing and then popping DfA is good for extra damage.

Do you think it is worthwhile to use DS until 4pc then switch to anticipation? I currently have 2pc only.

[Deleted]

Is there any theorycrafting for the upcoming 7.2 artifact traits? With the new Goremaw trait and the double deepening shadows CD reduction, maybe we can exchange some talents to improve our damage throughput without being starver of energy/SD charges?

Can it even make the Enveloping Shadows viable?

[elfporn]

Do you think it is worthwhile to use DS until 4pc then switch to anticipation? I currently have 2pc only.

In my op, you should go anticipation and get used to the different playstyle. Dps difference isminimal, esp if youre gaming finality:eviscerates

- - - Updated - - -

Is there any theorycrafting for the upcoming 7.2 artifact traits? With the new Goremaw trait and the double deepening shadows CD reduction, maybe we can exchange some talents to improve our damage throughput without being starver of energy/SD charges?

Can it even make the Enveloping Shadows viable?

MoSub, MoShadows, energetic stabbing, shadowstrike trait all increase in value, shadow tech trait increases in value with anticipation(current).

Premed MAY be able to be dropped for alacrity.

There's not much else to go over until we see a more complete build in a couple months.

[Valentyn]

Do you think it is worthwhile to use DS until 4pc then switch to anticipation? I currently have 2pc only.

You're better off going Anticipation now, and getting use to the playstyle. It'll just get faster and smoother once you have 4pc.

I don't have any energetic stabbing relics, and it's pretty decent. I can only imagine how smooth the rotation would go for me if I had one or two of those.

[Maelstrom51]

Is there any theorycrafting for the upcoming 7.2 artifact traits? With the new Goremaw trait and the double deepening shadows CD reduction, maybe we can exchange some talents to improve our damage throughput without being starver of energy/SD charges?

Can it even make the Enveloping Shadows viable?

Fairly pointless to theorycraft the traits at this point. They are sure to change. Especially the Deepening Shadows one.

[Jaronicity]

In my op, you should go anticipation and get used to the different playstyle. Dps difference isminimal, esp if youre gaming finality:eviscerates

- - - Updated - - -



MoSub, MoShadows, energetic stabbing, shadowstrike trait all increase in value, shadow tech trait increases in value with anticipation(current).

Premed MAY be able to be dropped for alacrity.

There's not much else to go over until we see a more complete build in a couple months.

Eh, already switched to Anticipation. Am I meant to game them? Or just play and if it happens, huzzah?? Obviously in AoE scenarios it's super easy to cheese it there, but I'm referring to single target situations. 10cp evisc > 5cp F:Evisc?

Furthermore, I landed the legendary shoulders a few days ago. Should I try to fit in an auto-crit DfA evisc in my opener? or just better to get NB up and then just play?

[Valentyn]

Furthermore, I landed the legendary shoulders a few days ago. Should I try to fit in an auto-crit DfA evisc in my opener? or just better to get NB up and then just play?

So far the best use of them is to save up 10 CP, then Vanish/Sprint to get into stealth for the Shoulders, then get that Finality Crit DfA in there, or two Evis if you can. Nightblade after.

[elfporn]

So far the best use of them is to save up 10 CP, then Vanish/Sprint to get into stealth for the Shoulders, then get that Finality Crit DfA in there, or two Evis if you can. Nightblade after.

What he said, even on opener.

[Jaronicity]

Awesome. That's what I'd been doing because it seemed like a waste to no utilize the crit factor. Cheers

[Valentyn]

Awesome. That's what I'd been doing because it seemed like a waste to no utilize the crit factor. Cheers

Remember on Krosus you can proc Flickering Shadows before he smashes the bridge. At the latest sprint at 3-4 seconds before he smashes it. That means you can sprint to safety, proc that lovely stealth and get 6 seconds of 100% crits.

The same can be used on Tichondrius with his pillars when he bombards the raid. If you cannot make it to a pillar without taking damage, simply pop Cloak of Shadows before sprinting. Get behind the pillar, and poof! Another lovely stealth to use those Shoulders on.

Even on Elisande between her phases, or if you need to sprint to the Blue add to kill it for the slow bubble. Try to proc as many free stealths as possible to maximise those Shoulders.

I'm also a bit jelly, I got the Feint pants recently, and I've wanted those shoulders for a while

[Jaronicity]

Remember on Krosus you can proc Flickering Shadows before he smashes the bridge. At the latest sprint at 3-4 seconds before he smashes it. That means you can sprint to safety, proc that lovely stealth and get 6 seconds of 100% crits.

The same can be used on Tichondrius with his pillars when he bombards the raid. If you cannot make it to a pillar without taking damage, simply pop Cloak of Shadows before sprinting. Get behind the pillar, and poof! Another lovely stealth to use those Shoulders on.

Even on Elisande between her phases, or if you need to sprint to the Blue add to kill it for the slow bubble. Try to proc as many free stealths as possible to maximise those Shoulders.

I'm also a bit jelly, I got the Feint pants recently, and I've wanted those shoulders for a while

Yea, I've only been a pug or two due to RL getting in the way of my raiding this xpac, but I did figure that out pretty quickly for Tich and Krosus. Haven't done Elisande yet so thanks for the heads up.

It's only my 3rd orange, but so far pretty decent rolls with Assassination boots, Sub boots, and now shoulders. Waiting for the day of Sephuz though lol

[Seliar]

I'm also a bit jelly, I got the Feint pants recently, and I've wanted those shoulders for a while

At least you have the other 4 best legendaries which you can choose from. I really hate this system, and not because i have shit luck with it (only utility legendarys and a cloak) but because someone with 2 bis will have almost always way higher dps than me even if i do my rotation perfectly and the other guy fucks up.

[Deleted]

*put tinfoil hat on* Looking at our new traits i atleast get the feeling they dont do anything about sub because these traits gonna fix it. This does not help us right now but these traits look fckn lit in comparison. Fills my dirty shadowy heart with hope.

[shinji2009]

Hey so I have been swapping around spec to spec and I really enjoy sub, but I have a ton of mastery on my gear but I only have the crap legendary neck and valera pants. I do have the 2 set bonus but still my dps just stinks. is sub really that bad without legendary's that actually help with damage?

[elfporn]

Hey so I have been swapping around spec to spec and I really enjoy sub, but I have a ton of mastery on my gear but I only have the crap legendary neck and valera pants. I do have the 2 set bonus but still my dps just stinks. is sub really that bad without legendary's that actually help with damage?

Just like with any spec in legion - if you have no dps legendaries, competing against those who do, you won't be able to top meters.

You should be sitting close to the middle with no dps legendaries, depending on the rest of your gear/trinkets and weapon level of course(huge)

I personally have ring/belt/trinket for my legendaries and my only real competition is the other sub rogue with BiS legendaries and our DH. More recently i'm very close to the sub rogue because i got CoF and can get close to his SB uptime (he has bracers).

Anyways, it's possible to be top as sub, with dps legendaries. Middle of the pack otherwise, depending on a number of other factors.