UK MP's overwhelmingly back article 50 bill

[Mayhem]

The biggest weapon the Tories wield toward the EU is the threat of turning the uk into a corporate tax haven.

That is like no threat at all.

[Noradin]

You want to force your opinion on other people and use the political powers of the EU to forcibly override them.

So if a vote in the UK has a few percent majority win and force its will on the rest it is democracy but if a vote in the EU turns out a majority for something it is oppression?

[ranzino]

Where did all the gaming topics go? Everyone's a politician these days it seems...

Forum is General Off-Topic here. Anything goes EXCEPT gaming.

[Deleted]

So if a vote in the UK has a few percent majority win and force its will on the rest it is democracy but if a vote in the EU turns out a majority for something it is oppression?

It is when we are talking about internal matters of UK. There are some things that only the country that it affects should be allowed to decide, like immigration.

[ranzino]

It is when we are talking about internal matters of UK. There are some things that only the country that it affects should be allowed to decide, like immigration.

UK never was part of Schengen area, you were fine in terms of immigration. But as being part of EU the UK was not entitled to discriminat fellow citizens from EU members in terms of settlement and work permits.

[dribbles]

UK never was part of Schengen area, you were fine in terms of immigration. But as being part of EU the UK was not entitled to discriminat fellow citizens from EU members in terms of settlement and work permits.

Nah we weren't fine really, over 3 million EU citizens now live in the UK (and that's just the ones we know about), many bring not a penny and no skill when they come. Enough is enough.

[Deleted]

Nah we weren't fine really, over 3 million EU citizens now live in the UK (and that's just the ones we know about), many bring not a penny and no skill when they come. Enough is enough.

Cool.
Of course, the studies into this shows that EU migration is revenue neutral or slightly positive.
Whereas the other half of the migration (that would be the Non-EU migration) is a net loss of 15 billion pounds a year.
But clearly, its the EU's fault.

[dribbles]

Cool.
Of course, the studies into this shows that EU migration is revenue neutral or slightly positive.
Whereas the other half of the migration (that would be the Non-EU migration) is a net loss of 15 billion pounds a year.
But clearly, its the EU's fault.

It might be revenue neutral but it's not about the money. They are not education services neutral, health services neutral, housing neutral, social services neutral, traffic infrastructure neutral, police services neutral, fire services neutral,council services neutral and so on and so on. Gradual controlled immigration over time allows society to adjust a tidal wave of uncontrolled immigration does not.

[Noradin]

It is when we are talking about internal matters of UK. There are some things that only the country that it affects should be allowed to decide, like immigration.

Why not leave decisions about immigration up to individual towns and settlements?
After all, by your logic having some distant organisation decide their internal matters must be oppression!

[Deleted]

It might be revenue neutral but it's not about the money. They are not education services neutral, health services neutral, housing neutral, social services neutral, traffic infrastructure neutral, police services neutral, fire services neutral,council services neutral and so on and so on. Gradual controlled immigration over time allows society to adjust a tidal wave of uncontrolled immigration does not.

Then why mention:

many bring not a penny and no skill when they come.

[Deleted]

Hes factually wrong but it doesnt matter because he doesnt care, as evidenced by his whole interaction in this thread. They won the vote and they still spout immigration problems like they were ever real.

Oh i can understand the problems of immigration on social cohesion, and they are not invalid.
I'm just perplexed why they think the pole is a greater problem on social cohesion than the paki.

[dribbles]

Oh i can understand the problems of immigration on social cohesion, and they are not invalid.
I'm just perplexed why they think the pole is a greater problem on social cohesion than the paki.

It is not about one being worse for social cohesion or from where they originate geographically, it's about one immigrant has a degree in medicine and is accepted, another brings nothing but a criminal record and is declined entry. Simple really.

(oh fyi paki is not a great word to use to describe people from Pakistan, I mean really no one uses it, you can google the reasons why)

[Kalis]

Cool.
Of course, the studies into this shows that EU migration is revenue neutral or slightly positive.
Whereas the other half of the migration (that would be the Non-EU migration) is a net loss of 15 billion pounds a year.
But clearly, its the EU's fault.

The problem with the figures of EU immigration is they include a number of very wealthy French people, who left France due to the high tax rates, and massively distort the increase in economic benefit from EU nationals in the UK.

Bizarrely the French send back about about 50% more money to France than the Polish do to Poland - an indicator of the respective wealth of the two immigrant groups - yet the Polish outnumber the French by 3-to-1.

Unlike the Poles, whose arrival in the UK primarily affects the employment prospect of the working classes, the French tend to work in the high end financial sector.

A leaked EU report has stated the EU wants a deal with Westminster which protects the City, as the damaging economic fallout from a drop there would be massively damaging EU-wide. That likely means the EU is going to actively try and strike a deal for the benefit of London's financial sector, plus being wealthy means those French people will have no trouble remaining in the UK (rich people never do), though there is an issue with their household staff, French speaking teachers, etc. that Britain will have to try and sort out, possibly through a separate Anglo-French deal.

tl;dr Economic benefit from Eastern European workers is overstated, as people forget the French, which is understandable.

Hes factually wrong but it doesnt matter because he doesnt care, as evidenced by his whole interaction in this thread. They won the vote and they still spout immigration problems like they were ever real.

Immigration problems are real. That nobody wants to emigrate to Scotland, so you are ignorant of the issues affecting the working classes in areas where immigration happens, does not make them suddenly unreal.

[Kalis]

It is not about one being worse for social cohesion or from where they originate geographically, it's about one immigrant has a degree in medicine and is accepted, another brings nothing but a criminal record and is declined entry. Simple really.

It would be nice if all those Pakistanis had degrees in medicine, but they kind of don't all have them.

- - - Updated - - -

If its so simple why do you not understand that such a ridiculously small amount of immigrants actually cause problems. The rest are the ones propping up our economy and social services.

You dont actually know much at all, if you back-pedal any harder you'll end up in the fucking sea mate.

You don't know what you are talking about. It isn't a small amount of immigrants that cause problems, it is due to the high numbers of unskilled immigrants.

[Deleted]

It is not about one being worse for social cohesion or from where they originate geographically, it's about one immigrant has a degree in medicine and is accepted, another brings nothing but a criminal record and is declined entry. Simple really.

yes, because as well all know, the NHS is not staffed by EU migrants and Birmingham is a centre of enlightenment.

(oh fyi paki is not a great word to use to describe people from Pakistan, I mean really no one uses it, you can google the reasons why)

oh i know its in poor form.

[dribbles]

oh i know its in poor form.

Are all people in favour of remain racist xenophobes? You won't find leavers on this forum using such derogatory terms, yet they are all placed in that bracket..

[Deleted]

Are all people in favour of remain racist xenophobes? You won't find leavers on this forum using such derogatory terms, yet they are all placed in that bracket..

I just wasn't interested in writing out polish and Pakistani.
Also, not from the UK, nor actually really interested in still having the UK in the EU.

[Kalis]

Plenty of people emigrate to Scotland, theres a fucking massive mosque and a large muslim leaning area near me, and shock horror the problems are non existant. Maybe its a culture issue, or an integration issue but it certainly isnt an immigration issue. Halting or making it harder isnt going to solve your problems.

Maybe having more diversity of jobs throughout England would help, or better government programs.

Non-British Isles migration to Scotland is tiny, look at the demographics. Muslims alone make up about 5% of England, Scotland has about 7% non-British immigrants from ALL groups.

Non-British Isles immigration in England stands at about 19%, nearly three times the level of Scotland. Immigration isn't a problem in Scotland, nobody emigrates there.


Edit: 19% not 20%, I forgot to include the Irish.

[Pua]

In that bargraph the only guaranteed option you have on the side to remain is to vote LibDem. The libdems have currently a 10% voteshare. The other 90% across a broad political spectrum possibly/probably/maybe/definately support Brexit. Voting for remain is really becoming an extremist minority position. The voteshare of the Libdems reflects this.

Wow, that's an awful lot of conflation that I just wouldn't do. The Liberal Democrats were rag-dolled in the last General Election due to their coalition with the Conservatives; much of their vote is tactical when people want to avoid the very party they ended up putting into government when they didn't have to. As a party, they may never recover from that because voters now know that voting Liberal Democrat doesn't necessarily stop Tories. Labour haemorrhaging votes to UKIP also contributed to the

I'm also flabbergasted that anyone would claim that 90% of the British population potentially supports Brexit, or that the vote share of the Liberal Democrats is somehow indicative of EU support being an extreme minority view. Not only would such an assessment be practically impossible to quantify, the available evidence is actually in direct opposition to that conclusion.

I know exactly why it didn't pass, I was just being brief.

No, you were being wrong. Accept it for goodness sake.

So if a vote in the UK has a few percent majority win and force its will on the rest it is democracy but if a vote in the EU turns out a majority for something it is oppression?

Pretty much. It might interest you to know that, democratically, the Scottish National Party are far more comparatively popular than the Conservatives are in England; they got a far bigger vote share for Holyrood in 2016 (around 50% of all votes), but didn't get a majority of seats because the Scottish Parliament is an Alternate-Member system. The Conservatives, on the other hand, picked up less than 35% of all votes but somehow command a majority to do whatever they like (ignoring that UKIP are really just Conservatives on the extreme euro-sceptic side).

Guess which party is consistently dispersed as creating a "one-party state"?

I'll give you a clue - it's not the tories.

[Mayhem]

A leaked EU report has stated the EU wants a deal with Westminster which protects the City, as the damaging economic fallout from a drop there would be massively damaging EU-wide.

Do you have a link to that, i´d like to read about it.