Guardian Druid - Threat Issues Logs/Armory included.

[Ishtar]

Hi!

I've been tanking for awhile now and I haven't really ever had any problems. However, as my guild moves into H NH I've found I'm having a semi difficult time holding threat. My OT is a DH. I'll taunt, have my bleed and moonrise rolling, swipe, mangle etc, but he still rips it off me.

It was especially noticeable on Spellblade last night. If you all could take a look and tell me what I should fix, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=summary

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ishtar/simple

~Ishtar

[MCDoom]

Can confirm you're not the only one having this issue. Was main tanking mythic Skorpyron last week and at the start of the fight out DH tank popped meta and went ham as usual and even with RotS he would continually rip threat off me. Wasn't until after the 3rd taunt that I was able to keep aggro.

Last night came on my to an alt run and I was struggling to hold aggro against an undergeared prot pally.

Guardian threat is borked at the moment.

[Valqt]

Well you need more DPS I guess. Your relics are all defensive based, if you had trash relics you wouldn't struggle with threat as much. Swapping Bristling Fur to Brambles might work as well, it's only 8k per hit but it's still 8k and it is better than that extra maul you can hit. Also during barkskin it AoEs which could help with threat too on fights with adds.

Your trinkets are pure defense based as well. If you really struggle with threat but your damage taken is fine (e.g. your healers are not complaining about you taking too much damage) you should really consider getting DPS trinket. See this list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1527758211

I mean just by looking at the log you provided, your DH does sooo much more dps. I know it's not all about that but it would help your threat a lot. Despite that, it is true a lot of bears are struggling atm and honestly if DH is ripping threat off of you then maybe he should wait with his CDs etc. He has a part to play in this as well. Just make sure you both communicate well.

Make sure you enchant/gem all your gear too! Hidden Satyr enchant on neck helps with dps. And another legendary wouldn't hurt. :P

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Hi!

I've been tanking for awhile now and I haven't really ever had any problems. However, as my guild moves into H NH I've found I'm having a semi difficult time holding threat. My OT is a DH. I'll taunt, have my bleed and moonrise rolling, swipe, mangle etc, but he still rips it off me.

It was especially noticeable on Spellblade last night. If you all could take a look and tell me what I should fix, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=summary

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ishtar/simple

~Ishtar

Most guardians go offensive neck enchant / dps trinkets / thrash relics.
The tanking trinkets aren't noteworthy, the neck enchant is only for phsyical, which nighthold has little of, and none of the relics give a noticeable survivability increase (except UE).
Didn't look at your logs, but on your armory you have "Bristling Fur","Restoration Affinity",""Incarnation,"Survival of the fittest", and "R&T".
This is a very weird combination.
BF should only be used if you're having trouble staying alive, which you shouldn't at your ilvl in hc or normal NH.
Resto affinity same deal, Balance is awesome in Nighthold because a lot of mobs are partially seperated. (Scorpions, Anomaly adds, tychondrius adds, spellblade adds, Guldan adds, ...)
Incarnation is a dps talent, only reason you can use it. IF you're taking this talent I see no reason why you're taking everything else defensively in the book. (neck, talents, trinkets, ...) Use GG unless you want to go full out dps.
Survival of the fittest is just plain bad. No fight in NH needs 33% more cd's to survive. GOE is a beast survivability wise though.
R&T is only a good talent when you have the legendary legs. If you don't have it, use pulverize, it's a survivability AND dps increase.

A full dps combo would look like this:
Satyr neck enchant + dps trinkets
Brambles
Balance ( or Feral affinity depending on if you'll catweave)
Incarnation
GOE
Pulverize (or R&T when catweaving, or when you have leggy legs)

A full survival combo would look like this:
Heavy hide neck enchant + Tank trinkets
BF
Resto Aff
GG
GOE
Pulv (or R&T with leggy legs)

[Captain Fizz]

I prefer GG for the auto-moonfire on AoE mobs. The extra rage is great too.

Anyway...
-1s = Pot
0s = RotS
Thrash, Mangle much DPS

Should mean you keep the boss if someone is doing the same dmg.

If they are doing more dmg, use DPS trinkets.
I go fine with DMC:I and Arcano.

[Soulwell]

Most guardians go offensive neck enchant / dps trinkets / thrash relics.
The tanking trinkets aren't noteworthy, the neck enchant is only for phsyical, which nighthold has little of, and none of the relics give a noticeable survivability increase (except UE).
Didn't look at your logs, but on your armory you have "Bristling Fur","Restoration Affinity",""Incarnation,"Survival of the fittest", and "R&T".
This is a very weird combination.
BF should only be used if you're having trouble staying alive, which you shouldn't at your ilvl in hc or normal NH.
Resto affinity same deal, Balance is awesome in Nighthold because a lot of mobs are partially seperated. (Scorpions, Anomaly adds, tychondrius adds, spellblade adds, Guldan adds, ...)
Incarnation is a dps talent, only reason you can use it. IF you're taking this talent I see no reason why you're taking everything else defensively in the book. (neck, talents, trinkets, ...) Use GG unless you want to go full out dps.
Survival of the fittest is just plain bad. No fight in NH needs 33% more cd's to survive. GOE is a beast survivability wise though.
R&T is only a good talent when you have the legendary legs. If you don't have it, use pulverize, it's a survivability AND dps increase.

A full dps combo would look like this:
Satyr neck enchant + dps trinkets
Brambles
Balance ( or Feral affinity depending on if you'll catweave)
Incarnation
GOE
Pulverize (or R&T when catweaving, or when you have leggy legs)

A full survival combo would look like this:
Heavy hide neck enchant + Tank trinkets
BF
Resto Aff
GG
GOE
Pulv (or R&T with leggy legs)

Incarn doesnt really provide a dps increase if the fight lasts more than 2 minutes. And pulv is also a very minimal damage increase over r&t even without the pants.
Catweave for also drops your threat by quite a bit.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Incarn doesnt really provide a dps increase if the fight lasts more than 2 minutes. And pulv is also a very minimal damage increase over r&t even without the pants.
Catweave for also drops your threat by quite a bit.

Pulv is a minimal damage increase AND survivability increase. If minor increases don't matter, then why even theorize about it?
Incarn is quite a substantial increase on any fight with a length between 0.5 and 2 minutes, 3.5 and 5 minutes, 6.5 and 8 minutes, etc...
If you have a fight that lasts just shy of 3 minutes, 6 minutes, 9 minutes, then it's equal or slightly worse than GG.
In almost any situation though it'll provide more dps, especially with on use dps trinkets and Barkskin/ROTS.

[patrins]

I see that you are casting a lot of moonfires but you aren't using galactic guardian. I heavily recommend switching to GG. Incarnation has the potential to do more damage on certain length fights, but thats burst threat and what we need to raise is your steady state threat. Also, your DH tank has higher burst potential than you and thats just a fact of life. If he wants to pop meta, fiery brand, fel dev, felblade, immo aura all in a row he will most definately have agro. Since that's the best way for him to put out damage on pull you might as well just let him pull the boss initially. Its also on him to just understand that if he fires all his burst together he WILL pull off of most anyone so if he isn't supposed to have the boss at that point in the fight he just should avoid doing that.

[Jester6578]

I've had this issue on pull with my Brewmaster co-tank. Keg Smash burst threat would rip the boss off of me in one GCD. The solution? He tanks first. No issue.

In situations where I am designated to tank first (I'm boss tank on Skorp), he holds off until I establish aggro.

If you are assigned to tank the boss first, it's on your co-tank NOT to pull threat. And if he does, then he's 100% padding meters and needs to stop being a selfish pos - politely, of course..

[Toore]

I've had this issue on pull with my Brewmaster co-tank. Keg Smash burst threat would rip the boss off of me in one GCD. The solution? He tanks first. No issue.

In situations where I am designated to tank first (I'm boss tank on Skorp), he holds off until I establish aggro.

If you are assigned to tank the boss first, it's on your co-tank NOT to pull threat. And if he does, then he's 100% padding meters and needs to stop being a selfish pos - politely, of course..

If youre supposed to start tanking why not pull with taunt (growl) when running to boss? Its 3 sec fixate and 3x threat generation - no way hell rip off you in that window (and if you use mangle and trash during it boss stays on you 99% of the time)

[Soulwell]

If youre supposed to start tanking why not pull with taunt (growl) when running to boss? Its 3 sec fixate and 3x threat generation - no way hell rip off you in that window (and if you use mangle and trash during it boss stays on you 99% of the time)

Either your off tank is trash or your off tank is trash. Even with old war, rage, and taunt you can still get threat ripped off against almost every other tank.

[Buichi]

I'm also having issues as a mythic raider to maintain threat throughout the fight. Constantly losing threat to all tanks no matter the situation. I downloaded omen to watch my threat and compare and found some odd stuff occuring mid pull. Every once in awhile my threat bar will drop to 0 and I'll have to completely rebuild which takes forever. I've lost aggro on several occasions just after a taunt fixate falls off and even while the off-tank is running his mechanics out. I am currently running brambles, gg, and rnt but will sometimes take lunar beam but none of it changes the outcome I just can't keep threat

[Valqt]

I don't see any reason to pick Incarnation over GG, as Patrins pointed out Inc is for burst threat and GG will provide more steady threat. Rarely anyone uses Incarnation...

Should only be using Pulverize on single target fights, it has little use on multi target. R&T will be a lot better.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I don't see any reason to pick Incarnation over GG, as Patrins pointed out Inc is for burst threat and GG will provide more steady threat. Rarely anyone uses Incarnation...

Should only be using Pulverize on single target fights, it has little use on multi target. R&T will be a lot better.

Steady threat helps just as much as burst threat.
Burst gets the threat high early, so the 10% overaggro window is bigger. If you can generate 10 million threat. Then they will overaggro when they reach 11 million threat, early on this number is smaller and thus it's more easy to overaggro. Having burst reduces the volatility at the start of a fight. This is my biggest problem. After 3 minutes, threat doesn't matter anymore. It's in the first minute where the threat matters. That's why burst threat helps. It makes the first minute feel like the second/third minute of a fight aggro wise.
Steady threat delays the time in which the other guy will over aggro you during a taunt phase.

I find burst more reliable than steady. With one big caveat. Only the guy tanking helps build trhat threat threshold. So burst is only useful if YOU start the fight. I've just tested my offtank and me on who can build the most burst threat. I won with incarn, he won with GG. So basically now, when I incarn, I pull, when I GG he pulls.

To relay back to the original problem I'm going to have to whine about Blizz' design ideas this expansion. Threat should only matter in certain scenarios, two tanks fighting each other in a raid shouldn't be one of them.

To recap:
Steady threat doesn't fix the issue, burst threat doesn't fix the issue, if a guy generates 10% more threat than you, at some point he will always overaggro.
This is Blizz' problem to fix. The only fix is for all tanks to be within 10% of each others threat gen, which has been the issue all expansion. At this point we only have temporary fixes for ourselves, one is to improbve steady threat, the other is to improve burst threat (on the pull).
Burst threat alleviates the problem, steady threat alleviates the problem in a different way. Burst threat matters.

EDIT: On your second point, Pulverize is just as good on AOE as Single target for survival. R&T is just there as a dps increase, and a surv decrease on AOE.

[Polarthief]

Guardian threat is borked at the moment.

Been borked since the pre-patch. I've said this 20,000 times and Blizzard just holds their hands up to their ears going "ALALALALALALALALALA" like it's not at all an issue :\

[Lysozyme]

http://pastebin.com/txMNQrvh

[exochaft]

Been borked since the pre-patch. I've said this 20,000 times and Blizzard just holds their hands up to their ears going "ALALALALALALALALALA" like it's not at all an issue :\

Didn't you know? Guardians permanently have the Skittish affix just to make things interesting!

While baseline threat generation is one issue, I still feel the legendary system and artifact relics are just as big of a problem when it comes to this issue. If you don't get throughput legendaries and are competing with a tank that has some, you're already behind the curve. Currently, I still do not have the Thrash bracers while I literally have every other Guardian/tank legendary (including the new ones). RNG is RNG, and I think I'm particularly lucky compared to most when it comes to legendary acquisition.

While it's easy to say "just use Thrash relics", getting them is still not particularly easy... just replaced an 855 fire Thrash relic I got week 1 or 2 of Legion with an 895 fire UE one two weeks ago, and it still technically ended up a very slight DPS loss despite the ilvl disparity (HoV hates me despite cherry-picking it for mythic+). Too many DPS eggs thrown into the Thrash relic basket, so to speak, but there's nothing we can do about it other than making our offensive abilities scale a lot more with weapon ilvl than artifact traits.

Simply put, there's quite a bit of RNG involved in order to fully maximize our threat output, but starting out behind the ball just exacerbates the issues in general. I'll be honest, I don't really experience threat issues often (mostly due to tank communication), but I can acknowledge there are some issues still.

[Soulwell]

http://pastebin.com/txMNQrvh

This pastebins tldr is calling you retarded if you lose threat. It's physically impossible to keep threat on a prot pally with the belt.

[Lysozyme]

I think you'll find there's a little more nuance to it than that

[Bearshield]

I'm still trying to figure out why you would bring up catweaving in a discussion about threat. If you can't out-threat your co-tank, just throw in the towel? Not terribly helpful. My question is this, is the issue still with bear threat (as was earlier this expansion and in the pre-patch), or is it an issue with Warriors and the Devastator build? My co-tank alternates between playing his DH and his Warrior and we haven't had a problem when he's on the DH (that I'm aware of) but last night he mentioned he was having to hold back on Krosus to avoid pulling off me. Our gear level is similar, and when I'm not catweaving, our dmg is pretty close. Switched neck enchants to Satyr today to see if that makes a difference but other than that, I'm not really sure what else to change right now. Already running legendary bracers and have dps/statstick trinkets.

I'm curious though, does the healing a Warrior gets from their legendary bracers generate additional threat? I wouldn't think it would be much if it did, but just wondering.