2221123 build with legendaries

[Faenlyn]

I was looking at the armoy of Irsix, who recently completed the M+24 run featured on the MMO front page video. I noticed he was using a 2221123. He is using Raddons and the belt as his legendaries

Now that was very interesting to me because I got Raddons yesterday and I contemplated running that very same build. The idea behind it is Fel Blade is just awesome especially when paired with constantly momentun fel rushing so you can get right back into melee without any waste of time. Running without DB so you have to use a builder for fury is just pulling teeth. Momentum is needed because in M+ you will be fel rushing all around. Unleashed power rather than Demon Reborn because Reborn only works after Meta so when running a timed dungeon, the constant reset that Unleashed power provides your Eyebeam and CN is super powerful. Waiting for Demon Reborn to be useful every 5 minutes is just not practical in a timed M+. Between the souls from Unleashed power and the CD reduction from Raddons, Eyebeam should be up constantly which means Demonic Meta should be up constantly. The entire dungeon should be spent Momentum buffed Fel rushing, Felblading back into melee, Eye beaming and in Meta.

Sounds great and I cant wait to try it. But my question was regarding legendaries. I was going to pair Raddons with the Ring. But I saw Irsix pairing it with the belt. Now the belt is great for AOE and burst and I can definitely see its usefullness but I thought that the ring would be too powerful with fury generation not to use. It could be that Irsix just doesnt have a half giant ring to use or he could be seeing something in the Raddons / Belt pairing for M+ in a Demonic build that Im missing.

What are the thoughts of you guys on this?

[Shirofune]

Id only use the trinket for M+ over the ring. His build is weird as fuck as well. Wouldn't go without DA and Demonic ever.

Afaik, Irsix doesn't have the ring.

[Mineral4r7s]

Him not having the ring is made obvious from how hes named in skada "NoRingqq"

Id only use the trinket for M+ over the ring. His build is weird as fuck as well. Wouldn't go without DA and Demonic ever.

Afaik, Irsix doesn't have the ring.

[Faenlyn]

Him not having the ring is made obvious from how hes named in skada "NoRingqq"

lol. Didnt notice that. Good catch. The build is still weird tho. Wonder what he knows that we dont

[Extremity]

lol. Didnt notice that. Good catch. The build is still weird tho. Wonder what he knows that we dont

I'm sure he could have pulled more DPS with another build or different gear. Everybody has their own preferences, just because you see a player doing high-level content doesn't automatically mean whatever build they're using has some secret to success. As for his legendary choice, the belt is probably the best second one he has. There are quite a few I would use over the belt in an M+ situation, especially if I was going an Eye Beam-heavy route.

[Deix-EU]

Well, it's +24, Demonic allow for survive whiile Eye beaming hence AE DPS quite a lot. Sim this build, it's not weird at all cause I simmed it just at 7.1.5 launch and I noticed he was doing "just" 30k less on patchwerk sim. It's in fact in simc just under the traditional one. Just not a good as Chaos Blade for raiding. With raddon's I guess you can afford not taking DA.

[Svisalith]

Raddons and DA work extremely well together

[Extremity]

Well, it's +24, Demonic allow for survive whiile Eye beaming hence AE DPS quite a lot. Sim this build, it's not weird at all cause I simmed it just at 7.1.5 launch and I noticed he was doing "just" 30k less on patchwerk sim. It's in fact in simc just under the traditional one. Just not a good as Chaos Blade for raiding. With raddon's I guess you can afford not taking DA.

DA is still really good, it's just a pain in the ass to play. AFAIK it still "technically" sims highest, the problem is that that's only with *perfect* gameplay/positioning for fragments, which you can't always reliably do. If you can pay really well, however, DA is pretty great; it adds a TON of self healing, sometimes surpassing a tank's self heals, and also DRAMATICALLY lowers your Eye Beam's cooldown. Hell, it also lowers the cooldown of your stun by a TON (rhymes!) which is pretty helpful in an M+ environment.

Honestly, the only problem I can foresee with DA is a situation where your Eye Beam's cooldown is already so low with the helm based on the size of the groups you're fighting that you simply don't need any further CD reduction via fragments. DA is going to be more useful the fewer targets you have, as the more targets there are the less you are going to be using Chaos Strike and the more the helm will be lowering the Eye Beam CD in the first place. I wish Chaos Cleave were a bit better, a DA/CC build could be pretty interesting. Imagine if each cleave also had a chance to generate a fragment? Chaos.

[Svisalith]

Honestly, the only problem I can foresee with DA is a situation where your Eye Beam's cooldown is already so low with the helm based on the size of the groups you're fighting that you simply don't need any further CD reduction via fragments

If you're getting eyebeam CD down to 15 seconds with the group size and then you can pick up 2 fragments and cast again and repeat, it's way better than waiting out that much time to cast it 3 times. DA + Blind Fury naturally gives you soul fragments to do this because eyebeam tops the fury bar but Felblade won't synergise as well

[Extremity]

If you're getting eyebeam CD down to 15 seconds with the group size and then you can pick up 2 fragments and cast again and repeat, it's way better than waiting out that much time to cast it 3 times. DA + Blind Fury naturally gives you soul fragments to do this because eyebeam tops the fury bar but Felblade won't synergise as well

I agree, that's why I said it's good unless the group size is big enough to make it worthless, ie, if the groups are SO big that you are automatically getting Eye Beam to a <=5 second CD.

[Deix-EU]

I agree, that's why I said it's good unless the group size is big enough to make it worthless, ie, if the groups are SO big that you are automatically getting Eye Beam to a <=5 second CD.

Remember it's +24, bosses don't fall easily. A mix of survival / stun / AE / ST is required and this spec is doing it quite nicely in fact.

[Svisalith]

Remember it's +24, bosses don't fall easily. A mix of survival / stun / AE / ST is required and this spec is doing it quite nicely in fact.

Does less ST and doesn't have the burst of 2-2-2 w/ nemesis+CB - low enough to fall significantly below 3-3-1 builds that are using either CB or demonic in my ST sims and those builds also have large performance leads for cleave/aoe.

I think it's just a personal choice thing, you can do great things without perfect talents.

[Deix-EU]

Does less ST and doesn't have the burst of 2-2-2 w/ nemesis+CB - low enough to fall significantly below 3-3-1 builds that are using either CB or demonic in my ST sims and those builds also have large performance leads for cleave/aoe.

I think it's just a personal choice thing, you can do great things without perfect talents.

Yeah that's basically what my "a mix of survival / stun AE / ST" means: "Does less ST and doesn't have the 3 3 1 burst build", just a rephrase. It has a mix of both but doesn't do excellent in one of category. What we know, is it passed it.

[Extremity]

Yeah that's basically what my "a mix of survival / stun AE / ST" means: "Does less ST and doesn't have the 3 3 1 burst build", just a rephrase. It has a mix of both but doesn't do excellent in one of category. What we know, is it passed it.

There really is no need, though. You don't bring a Demon Hunter for utility. You bring a Demon Hunter for high, nonstop damage. If you wanted utility there are other classes you could bring that can do roughly the same damage and have more utility to offer. Honestly, the only thing we offer in a M+ that is consistently reliable would be our AOE stun. Speccing into the reduced duration/no cost is acceptable. Any other change with the excuse of "trading damage for utility" or "balancing AOE and ST" is not worthwhile, pretty much ever.

Like I said before, people can perform well in a lot of specs. You can spec into something totally weird and still do well, especially with cleave. That doesn't automatically mean it's the best spec, or even a go-to spec of any kind. He performed well, sure, but I mean it wasn't anything crazy spectacular.

Edit: Not speaking for a pure Demonic Build, the only two talents I pretty much ever change for M+ are the stun talent, and sometimes Fel Barrage depending on what I'm running and how much ST we already have for boss damage, along with depending on what affix is up that week (increased boss health vs trash health, etc). That's about it. Sometimes I'll run Netherwalk on Skittish, but that's rare.

[Svisalith]

There really is no need, though. You don't bring a Demon Hunter for utility.

Survivability is very strong, your healers will thank you for being able to take two lanturns from level 20 fortified mariner without external healing while doing lots of damage meanwhile. 40s free stun is often being fired off 2-3 times per pack and is extremely strong when you set up for it.

We have a pretty good interrupt (20yrd range, moderate cooldown, generates fury) and a ranged, instant cast, 15 second cooldown CC that can be used on three mob types to break casts and channels, even uninterruptable ones. If you don't factor in survivability or utility when bringing a DH then you should probably look for one of them that uses the tools that they are given

Yeah that's basically what my "a mix of survival / stun AE / ST" means: "Does less ST and doesn't have the 3 3 1 burst build", just a rephrase. It has a mix of both but doesn't do excellent in one of category. What we know, is it passed it.

222 w/ nemesis + CB is the burst build.

The point that i was making is that doesn't look like an optimized build to be the best at those things or even good at all of them at the same time. It has a little below normal ST, quite far below normal AOE and less stuns than a DA style. It does have survivability (like 3-3-1 w/ demonic)

ST

[Faenlyn]

ST

With sims you are missing the quality of life benefits where every QoL benefit is needed to survive and do well in M24.

The problem with your demonic builds you are showing as superior is that it, Felblade provides mobility you might need in a high M+ environment as well as high damage. Meanwhile Demon's bite is a pain in the ass to be using as a generator. M+24 is not a sim. Using bite, you're sitting there wasting GCDs on a useless ability. Demon's blade allows you to free up that time to focus on your utility, positioning, or just have less things to worry about juggling while focusing on just staying alive when every little mistep can kill you in M24

So I would say judging a build is not just about what a sim says its provides. If you are going with Demonic for survival in a high M+, Fel Blade and Demons Blade provide such superior quality of life improvement, it makes a theoretical sim trade off worth it. Or you can choose to play a simming higher build but probably end up dead and doing 0 DPS where every QoL benefit matters, not just highest sim DPS

Remember that old truism. A dead DPS does 0 DPS. And provides no utility. The quality of life and survival benefits of Felblade, Demon's blade and Demonic make them very solid choices in very high M+ imo.

[Svisalith]

I don't see the massive difference between DBite and Dblades there - DBlades requires you to be in melee range and facing your target in sync with your swing timer. Dblades spends a notable amount of time either doing nothing or spending GCD's on weak abilities as well; i don't think that this is dramatically less difficult to play.

Demonic is clearly a pretty good talent when survivability is involved, the DPS output is good - it just synergises better with Blind Fury (EB tops up your fury bar rather than emptying it as you enter demon form), Raddons and DA.

I do not judge purely on sims, they are just a tool. When one style sims 1.5 - 2x as much damage for sustained AOE against a moderate amount of targets (5-10) while having the same ST damage you'd need extremely strong justification to call the lower-simming style "better".

The mobility of felblade and subjective opinions about QOL & focus requirements don't cut it, IMO. You may want to use them for personal reasons and that's pretty fine even at high levels of play but this does not make it the ultimate talent setup that will outperform every other DH setup

[Extremity]

You may want to use them for personal reasons and that's pretty fine even at high levels of play but this does not make it the ultimate talent setup that will outperform every other DH setup

This. I don't think anybody's trying to say any one setup is incorrect or even subpar when used properly, just that trying to say one build is vastly superior to another for this QoL reason or that ability to focus reason is a little ridiculous. A good DH will be able to perform well in this environment (and many others) using multiple builds, no individual one being better than the others in every single regard.

[Faenlyn]

This. I don't think anybody's trying to say any one setup is incorrect or even subpar when used properly, just that trying to say one build is vastly superior to another for this QoL reason or that ability to focus reason is a little ridiculous. A good DH will be able to perform well in this environment (and many others) using multiple builds, no individual one being better than the others in every single regard.

Thats BS. I eagerly await your video showing us how well a good DH like you does in M+25 using Blind Fury which leaves you rooted in place for a extra period of time in an environment where every mistep can be deadly, providing plenty fury in those rooted moments but leaving you fury starved outside that eye beam window. Blind Fury is a great talent only in sims. Because the sim ends after that fight. And there is no environmental risk in that pronlonged eye beam window. A Sim is only a sim of that fight, it doesnt take into account the next fight and the next fight over the course of the dungeon. You just blew your extra long eyebeam generating a wonderful 35 fury per second, hoping nothing kills you while you are extra long rooted. But what about the next fight when your eyebeam is not going to be up and you dont have fel blade or even FM to provide you with fury. You will be fury starved wondering why you thoughu generating fury at a decent rate only during a long CD eye beams is a good idea. Because a sim said that would be a good idea in 1 simmed fight and doesnt take into account real play over 30 minutes?
If you think QoL is a ridiculous reason and any good DH should be able to perform well with any build, then you really should back that up with video evidence otherwise you are just blowing smoke

[Extremity]

Thats BS. I eagerly await your video showing us how well a good DH like you does in M+25 using Blind Fury which leaves you rooted in place for a extra period of time in an environment where every mistep can be deadly, providing plenty fury in those rooted moments but leaving you fury starved outside that eye beam window. Blind Fury is a great talent only in sims. Because the sim ends after that fight. And there is no environmental risk in that pronlonged eye beam window. A Sim is only a sim of that fight, it doesnt take into account the next fight and the next night over the course of the dungeon. You just blew your extra long eyebeam generating a wonderful 35 fury per second, hoping nothing kills you while you are extra long rooted. But what about the next fight when your eyebeam is not going to be up and you dont have fel blade or even FM to provide you with fury. You will be fury starved wondering why you though generating fury at a decent rate after eye beams is a good idea. Because a sim said so?
If you think QoL is a ridiculous reason and any good DH should be able to perform well with any build, then you really should back that up with video evidence otherwise you are just blowing smoke

I never claimed to be an amazing or better demon hunter. I simply stated that people can perform well in different builds, and most certainly when it's down to changing a single talent. If you're genuinely saying that it's impossible to perform well in a high M+ with Blind Fury, that's your opinion. I entirely disagree; one DH can do great with it, one can do great without. If you really think that talent choice entirely makes or breaks the class to the point that any Demon Hunter selecting it is doomed to fail in a competitive M+ environment, regardless of the affixes that week or the dungeon they're running... then fine, that's cool, you're entitled to think what you want. Nobody's trying to have a confrontation with you, nor do I think anybody here is invested enough in this to create and post video evidence for you. If you think we're all huge idiots and that you know best, more power to you.

Edit: You're aware that if something were genuinely going to kill you during an Eye Beam cast with Blind Fury (which, by your logic, could happen just as easily during a baseline Eye Beam) one of these superior players could quite easily cancel the cast and avoid the mechanic, correct? I just wanted to toss that out there. Note: This is not meant to be a confrontational statement and I hope we can be friends.