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  1. #81
    Also, I hate to tell that, but the Crimean referendum was blatantly staged. Not that I'm saying that Russian would not have won it, but the ''YES'' were so high that it meant that over 80% of Ukrainian speakers and Tartars would have voted for it in addition of 100% of Russian speakers.

    That the good old Tintin in the Land of Soviets style elections (those who vote for the communist list, raise one hand, those who are against, raise both...), where the good result might have been obtained, but the power that be decide that 60% is not enough and go for 99%.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    So as per Venice Comission you misinterpret self-determination in vein of Putin's propaganda.
    Never been to Venice, just know what self determination is, no interpretation required.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Never been to Venice, just know what self determination is, no interpretation required.
    "The Venice Commission stressed that self-determination was to be understood primarily as internal self-determination within the framework of the existing borders and not as external self-determination through secession." Huh, how weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Never been to Venice, just know what self determination is, no interpretation required.
    Stupid people except referendums to be done with electoral lists and without armed soldiers outside the booth to ''protect the voters from Ukrainians Nazis''

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    "The Venice Commission stressed that self-determination was to be understood primarily as internal self-determination within the framework of the existing borders and not as external self-determination through secession." Huh, how weird.
    Presumably because the good old gig of ''irredentists setting up a fake government'' got old after a while.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Pretty much this. Venice Commission's ruling said that the Crimean referendum of 2014 not only broke both Ukrainian and Crimean constitutions, but also some of the pretty much fundamental aspects of international law and missed the point of self-determination.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Perhaps if they didn't declare independence in breach of Ukrainian law and didn't hold illegal referendums despite them already being ruled as illegal by Ukraine prior to the referendum, Ukraine wouldn't have to act accordingly to uphold its law. Food for thought. Also, it's pretty funny you defend Crimea's actions by bringing up things like their stance being that Ukraine "voided both sides of the agreement" when Ukraine's actions in that event which supposedly did so were nothing more than Ukraine being reactionary to Crimea acting against said agreement.




    Doesn't make it any more valid due to Russian interference. Or any more legal.




    So as per Venice Comission you misinterpret self-determination in vein of Putin's propaganda. Splendid.




    Just stay away from Ukraine. Poland (and Lithuania, I guess) can into Ruthenia once again!
    Here's the name of the document by Venice commission you seem to like to refer to:
    "Opinion on whether the decision taken by the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea in Ukraine to organise a referendum on becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation or restoring Crimea’s 19 92 constitution is compatible with constitutional principles"

    So your first statement is false, as this opinion only deals with issues of compatibility of referendum and ukranian law. Yes, they are incompatible, but there is the letter of law, and the spirit of law, while ignoring the former, Crimean referendum respects the latter principle, people living on their land must decide wheter they associate themselves with one country or the other, especially taking into account that coup -de tat that happened in Kiev was, well, illegal and people in Crimea had every right not support the junta there.

    Had you been a real deal however, which I know you are not, you would have gone to Crimea and asked people on the street there, whether they had voted for reunification or not. 9 out of 10 would have said "yes". Because not only do Crimeans associate themselves historically with Russia, but also Russia is wealthier than Ukraine, salaries are higher, so are pensions, better healthcare, and a lot of other benefitsw which all made the choice pretty clear for Crimeans.

    Oh and you might wanna check Kosovo precedent.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    Eu has always been the real villain in the whole Ukraine fiasco, The EU certainly can not be trusted when it comes to agriculture or fisheries management.
    Still mad we don't buy your whale-meat?
    "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference."

    Elie Wiesel (1928 – 2016)

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    Also, I hate to tell that, but the Crimean referendum was blatantly staged.
    In that case maybe you can explain why it was in line with the previous Crimean referendums and the opinion polls conducted between 2009-2011?


    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    Not that I'm saying that Russian would not have won it, but the ''YES'' were so high that it meant that over 80% of Ukrainian speakers and Tartars would have voted for it in addition of 100% of Russian speakers.
    Actually the total "YES" votes were less than 100% of Russian speakers, because not everyone bothers to register to vote.

    And just a note, most of the Tatars were actually pro-Russian due to the fact that after Ukraine took over in 1995 they implemented anti-Tatar laws.
    Last edited by caervek; 2017-02-06 at 03:47 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by The Emperor View Post
    Here's the name of the document by Venice commission you seem to like to refer to:
    "Opinion on whether the decision taken by the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea in Ukraine to organise a referendum on becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation or restoring Crimea’s 19 92 constitution is compatible with constitutional principles"

    So your first statement is false, as this opinion only deals with issues of compatibility of referendum and ukranian law. Yes, they are incompatible, but there is the letter of law, and the spirit of law, while ignoring the former, Crimean referendum respects the latter principle, people living on their land must decide wheter they associate themselves with one country or the other, especially taking into account that coup -de tat that happened in Kiev was, well, illegal and people in Crimea had every right not support the junta there.
    And how does that name actually change anything? Do explain that, oh great one. Other than highlighting cherry-picked parts of the name, which actually don't change squat. Because, newsflash, had the Venice Commission's decision been negative, which it was, it would make the referendum illegal because that's the result of a referendum incompatible with their constitution.

    Here, a fun exercise for you, reading more than the name. Shocking concept, I know.
    The Constitution of Ukraine, like other constitutions of Council of Europe member states, provides for the indivisibility of the country and does not allow the holding of any local referendum on secession from Ukraine. This results in particular from Articles 1, 2, 73 and 157 of the Constitution. These provisions in conjunction with Chapter X of the Constitution show that this prohibition also applies to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Constitution of Crimea does not allow the Supreme Soviet of Crimea to call such a referendum. Only a consultative referendum on increased autonomy could be permissible under the Ukrainian Constitution.
    This does not mean that the notion of self-determination would be alien to European constitutional law. However, in its Report on “Self-determination and secession in constitutional law” quoted above, the Venice Commission concludes that self-determination is understood primarily as internal self-determination within the framework of the existing borders and not as external self-determination through secession.
    Here, I even included highlights for you. That actually mean something, even. Would you look at that, it says exactly what I claimed it says, which means you're full of shit. What a surprise, no one could have expected that /s And your claim that Crimea had every right to take actions that are illegal under the law binding them is abject dogshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Emperor View Post
    Had you been a real deal however, which I know you are not, you would have gone to Crimea and asked people on the street there, whether they had voted for reunification or not. 9 out of 10 would have said "yes". Because not only do Crimeans associate themselves historically with Russia, but also Russia is wealthier than Ukraine, salaries are higher, so are pensions, better healthcare, and a lot of other benefitsw which all made the choice pretty clear for Crimeans.
    Considering I only talked about its legality, this is irrelevant drivel.


    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    In that case maybe you can explain why it was in line with the previous Crimean referendums and the opinion polls conducted between 2009-2011?
    Except it was not in line even with Russian poll conducted after the annexation, let alone other polls. Especially the UN one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Considering how secession of Crimea as well as hypothetical secession of California are illegal, it's OK to commit illegal actions if others do it too? Amazing.
    What was illegal was the coup in Kiev. The Crimeans then had the right to protect themselves from the criminals at Kiev by rejoining Russia. If the coup didn't happen and the president was changed through fair and legitimate elections, then the secession would indeed have been illegal. But the pro-EU team chose to take what they wanted illegally, freeing the Crimeans to do what they wanted as well.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    What was illegal was the coup in Kiev. The Crimeans then had the right to protect themselves from the criminals at Kiev by rejoining Russia. If the coup didn't happen and the president was changed through fair and legitimate elections, then the secession would indeed have been illegal. But the pro-EU team chose to take what they wanted illegally, freeing the Crimeans to do what they wanted as well.
    If the coup hadn't happened then Yanukovych would have lost the planned early elections, and without a coup it's highly unlikely that there would have been war in eastern Ukraine, and Crimea would most likely still be party of Ukraine (albeit working towards secession diplomatically).

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    If the coup hadn't happened then Yanukovych would have lost the planned early elections, and without a coup it's highly unlikely that there would have been war in eastern Ukraine, and Crimea would most likely still be party of Ukraine (albeit working towards secession diplomatically).
    Exactly. One can only hope the pro-EU ukrainians (and others with similar criminal aspirations) learned their lesson and adhere to democracy and constitution in the future. Crimea's secession and, one hopes, the autonomization of Donbass are an appropriate punishment/payment for their crimes. And the only course to ending the hostilities and stabilizing the situation.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    What was illegal was the coup in Kiev. The Crimeans then had the right to protect themselves from the criminals at Kiev by rejoining Russia. If the coup didn't happen and the president was changed through fair and legitimate elections, then the secession would indeed have been illegal. But the pro-EU team chose to take what they wanted illegally, freeing the Crimeans to do what they wanted as well.
    Which was what the "when others do it too" part referred too. So, considering that this situation didn't magically make the Crimean referendum any more legal than it was (i.e. not at all), your stance is as already outlined. Still amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Which was what the "when others do it too" part referred too. So, considering that this situation didn't magically make the Crimean referendum any more legal than it was (i.e. not at all), your stance is as already outlined. Still amazing.
    Even if both events were equally illegal we should equally accept both outcomes. However, the Crimean secession wasn't nearly as illegal as the coup since it was justified by the coup.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/b...rade.html?_r=0



    Europe refuses to open it's market to Ukraine and Russia closed it's market. After the fake protests all that is left is misery and poverty. Great job.
    Wouldn't want cage eggs anyway. They sit there, half their body without feathers, stuck in a tiny cage forever. No thanks.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Exactly. One can only hope the pro-EU ukrainians (and others with similar criminal aspirations) learned their lesson and adhere to democracy and constitution in the future. Crimea's secession and, one hopes, the autonomization of Donbass are an appropriate punishment/payment for their crimes. And the only course to ending the hostilities and stabilizing the situation.
    Traduction : do what Russia says, or else.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Actually, stay away from Hungary too. The marriage deal with Austria that lost Jagiellons Hungary and Bohemia was one of the top ten most idiotic actions this country has ever committed.
    Come on man! Thats the only way for us to get big again - by marriage. We suck at wars I mean we started them often... but... eh... hindsight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Just stay away from Ukraine. Poland (and Lithuania, I guess) can into Ruthenia once again!
    Probably we can call Putin for help to restore the polish-lithuanian commonwealth?

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    Still mad we don't buy your whale-meat?
    Whale is the smallest part of Icelandic fish exports even if business was booming due to SUSTAINABLE quotas it would still be smallest.
    But the word I capitalised is not in the EU dictionary when it comes to issuing quotas and thats why all stock they manage is heading to the shitter.
    And thats not mentioning how they have fucked up whole countries farming industries with their favouritism quotas and import tariffs on agriculture.

  18. #98
    I think we can all agree that the EU has to go. More like EW, I say!
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    An alcoholic fighting his addiction is fighting a jihad.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    And thats not mentioning how they have fucked up whole countries farming industries with their favouritism quotas and import tariffs on agriculture.
    The EU has to protect it's inner market.
    "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference."

    Elie Wiesel (1928 – 2016)

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Pretty much this. Venice Commission's ruling said that the Crimean referendum of 2014 not only broke both Ukrainian and Crimean constitutions, but also some of the pretty much fundamental aspects of international law and missed the point of self-determination.
    Problem with international law is that there is this one place in the Bulkans that pretty much put that part into complete irrelevancy when it basically said "Lol independence now." and a lot of the west went "Yeah ok." trying to claim no precedent was set when in reality a huge one was set that day.

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