Legion PvP Really That Bad!?

[wholol]

IMO PvP is boring nowadays because of 2 reasons

1. PvP is hyper responsive so it's very hard to outplay your opponent nowadays by CCing the opponent the same time they stun you, thus wasting their stun. This was possible before WoD made combat hyper responsive and it actually made PvP feel like you always had a way to outplay your opponent. But since WoD took that away PvP has become really dull and boring with not enough depth to classes. Legion added to the problem of classes lacking depth by pruning abilities and by giving many classes consistent, spammy damage which brings me to the second point:
2. Many classes have become very spammy in terms of DPS rotation. Ret paladins having 2 crusader strikes on very low CD. Enha shamans having a spammable resource generator or a semi low CD resource generator. WW Monk BoK only costing 1 chi and with its playstyle allowing you to use more than 5 abilities before there's any down time. Sub rogues being able to use more than 10 abilities before running out of energy. There are all classes that used to have limited resources and had to spend them wisely. However in Legion these classes have become very spammy and low effort, making them dull to play in PvP. Because these playstyles have become so spammy and easy to play, the gap between good players and bad players has shrunk.

Pretty much this.

I'm actually seeing people use the term " dps" in arenas to gauge the strength of a class/spec ( and I don't mean at low ratings), I mean wth happened ??

[Hashtronaut]

Not having Spell Reflect base line as a Warrior or intervene to eat CC makes me feel like I'm just mindless training.....in fact sometimes I end up phasing out.

It was mindless before, just a different kind of mindless...

[Terahertz]

Pretty much this.

I'm actually seeing people use the term " dps" in arenas to gauge the strength of a class/spec ( and I don't mean at low ratings), I mean wth happened ??

I think that's because of how spammy damage has become and because there's much less outplay potential to many classes. Thus players have gotten more reliable uptime, meaning the class with higher DPS is going to be better. I'm pretty sure there still are a few class that rely more on burst, for example WW monks, destro locks and frost mages. But classes such as rogue, paladin, warrior, hunters all seem to have rather low downtime in terms of dealing damage so the class with the highest DPS will generally win out of those.

[Hotmail]

Honor seems like it's always going to be relevant as a currency, so Legion has that going for it. Where modern PvP fails is in making a good first impression - Warlords was supposed to be primarily about skill (where it succeeded to an extent), but Legion is back to being a full time game of who-can-grind-more, where late starters get to play a very stripped down version of their class.

[Craaazyyy]

its not about balance or gear or anything like that.. its because the game is boring because of pruning and other shit like that

basically what Crruor and Scoli said earlier

[Daffan]

its not about balance or gear or anything like that.. its because the game is boring because of pruning and other shit like that

basically what Crruor and Scoli said earlier

the only people who use the gear excuse are the ones who like welfare gearing for pve. in terms of template adj, then it can matter for some

[Craaazyyy]

the only people who use the gear excuse are the ones who like welfare gearing for pve. in terms of template adj, then it can matter for some

templates is actually one of the reason pvp sucks

[Philomene]

templates is actually one of the reason pvp sucks

No, I don't think so. They can finally try to balance precisely with those stats sustain, burst damage and tune a bit defensive or spells with the honor talents. I think that's a nice step forward. Plus, they are doing frequent hotfixes to try to address the problems, it is another step forward.

Now, what hurt PvP the most is the ability pruning : already ridiculous in Warlords, it went even worse with Legion (and the Demon Hunter class design resolving about tunneling and cleaving with some ridiculous 12-yo fanbase effects shows how class design was in mind) : a large chunk if not all mind game and counterplay has disappeared from the game. While before, as a player you had to manage damage, CCs, DRs, how your comp and the one you were facing worked, while having global arena awareness, now everything resolves around damage and unavoidable CC with ridiculous proc/automatic mechanics (someone already made a great list a couple of posts before). I've had 2200 at all seasons since Cataclysmic, didn't get while Malevolent cause I wasn't playing, and even in MoP I had the feeling that everything was easier (maybe that's because I got better too, tho I never really went higher than 2300, because of boredom I guess, not saying I deserve gladi anyway). The blast was in WoD, got into arena lately in Primal to get the elite set, and while queuing around 2200-2300, I faced so many people who were basically lost in the arena, using trinket on 1/4 clones, backpeddling to LoS, and stuff. People dying in 8-sec KS with unhealable and unpeelable damage. It was like 6 or 7 months I did not step a foot in arena and I was so shocked about stuff that I once saw around 1700. Didn't really arena yet in Legion cause all my friends stopped playing during Wild season but what I saw from the few I've played is even more awful. Arena at mid-rating feels like an arcade game.

What also hurts PvP is the lack of rewards. Rewards at 2000 and then gladiator mounts. Duelist is a joke, on EU people could get it around like 2050, except on Grievous season which was the first after the battlegrounds were merged it has never been this low. They should put back enchants and tabards to have some kind of reward to target when you know you can't get the top one. 2000 transmog, 2200 enchant and 2400 tabard was nice (rating may vary due to inflation, it should be kept relevant).

And maybe the weapon that has to be upgraded. Weird that they got rid of gear and basically only left Honor Talents but they left the weapon.

Clunky classes + No fun + no rewards or incentives to get really better apart from ratings. That's why PvP sucks.

[rda]

the only people who use the gear excuse are the ones who like welfare gearing for pve. in terms of template adj, then it can matter for some

The people who say that gear (many aspects - from pretty much non-existent rewards to having to do PVE) is one of the big reasons PVP sucks no longer participate in these discussions, because they stopped PVPing.

[Craaazyyy]

No, I don't think so.

balance was never something most ppl wanted to see tbh(i mean ofc you wanted the game to be more balanced, but no one would rather have balanced game over fun game).. especially now when the game is boring as fuck.. and honestly its as easy to balance classes without templates.. they just dont know how to do it in general so that doesnt really matter.. for that reason we dont even need pvp talents aswell..

templates again taking away the fun part of minmaxing your character.. now the game does it for you which is just plain fucking boring.. we already lost gems, most enchants and fun stuff like that.. obviously lost countless number of abilities, and abilities we have now are retarded(especially mobility, stupid unavoidable instant ranged stuns etc. etc., bullshit interrupts etc, shit like subterfuge), they took away cool designed stuff and brought some dumb retarded stuff so we are stuck in this shit, alot of abilities that are still in the game have changed and are also retarded now like traps being instant and unavoidable for the most part(sometimes you cant even see a hunter throwing it LMAO), overall class design is complete dogshit for almost every class/spec.. the fact that mana is literally a useless thing if you're not a healer.. the fact that healers now only heal and do nothing else(and healing is also dogshit).. all of this with the fact that templates are just something you dont have to think about is making it EVEN MORE boring

[Philomene]

Yes balance is unachievable and not needed in order to have fun. What I meant is that with the templates now they can tune stuff without having the excuse they had before, "that would affect PvE, so let's tune something else like CC".

The optimization and min-max could still be part of the game with the templates, they could say that 600 points of stat X = 1% instead of 300. They just decided to remove everything so it's easier to kick in PvP, in the same way they pruned abilities.

[Matthias]

No, I don't think so. They can finally try to balance precisely with those stats sustain, burst damage and tune a bit defensive or spells with the honor talents. I think that's a nice step forward. Plus, they are doing frequent hotfixes to try to address the problems, it is another step forward.

Now, what hurt PvP the most is the ability pruning : already ridiculous in Warlords, it went even worse with Legion (and the Demon Hunter class design resolving about tunneling and cleaving with some ridiculous 12-yo fanbase effects shows how class design was in mind) : a large chunk if not all mind game and counterplay has disappeared from the game. While before, as a player you had to manage damage, CCs, DRs, how your comp and the one you were facing worked, while having global arena awareness, now everything resolves around damage and unavoidable CC with ridiculous proc/automatic mechanics (someone already made a great list a couple of posts before). I've had 2200 at all seasons since Cataclysmic, didn't get while Malevolent cause I wasn't playing, and even in MoP I had the feeling that everything was easier (maybe that's because I got better too, tho I never really went higher than 2300, because of boredom I guess, not saying I deserve gladi anyway). The blast was in WoD, got into arena lately in Primal to get the elite set, and while queuing around 2200-2300, I faced so many people who were basically lost in the arena, using trinket on 1/4 clones, backpeddling to LoS, and stuff. People dying in 8-sec KS with unhealable and unpeelable damage. It was like 6 or 7 months I did not step a foot in arena and I was so shocked about stuff that I once saw around 1700. Didn't really arena yet in Legion cause all my friends stopped playing during Wild season but what I saw from the few I've played is even more awful. Arena at mid-rating feels like an arcade game.

What also hurts PvP is the lack of rewards. Rewards at 2000 and then gladiator mounts. Duelist is a joke, on EU people could get it around like 2050, except on Grievous season which was the first after the battlegrounds were merged it has never been this low. They should put back enchants and tabards to have some kind of reward to target when you know you can't get the top one. 2000 transmog, 2200 enchant and 2400 tabard was nice (rating may vary due to inflation, it should be kept relevant).

And maybe the weapon that has to be upgraded. Weird that they got rid of gear and basically only left Honor Talents but they left the weapon.

Clunky classes + No fun + no rewards or incentives to get really better apart from ratings. That's why PvP sucks.

You have to admit though we were kind of bloated in in Pandaria, I didn't go hard for rating that xpac and was only there for the end, but as a Warrior I felt I had an answer for everything, a Ranged Stun, the ability to Charge twice, Leap and Intervene to my banner, an on demand heal, a passive heal, 3 defensive CDs....etc.

I mean even in Cataclysm, I can't for the life of me understand why they gave Warriors the most mobile class at time with Charge, Intercept and Intervene, we also got Heroic Leap. Meanwhile Mages who had the most control got Ring of Frost -_-. And Throwdown just felt dirty.

[Daffan]

templates is actually one of the reason pvp sucks

Yes I put that templates adjust would be nice

[Craaazyyy]

Yes I put that templates adjust would be nice

just remove them ffs.. let ppl decide what they wanna do themselves and nerf/buff abilities instead of STATS.. playing some classes with low haste is just SO BORING

- - - Updated - - -

You have to admit though we were kind of bloated in in Pandaria, I didn't go hard for rating that xpac and was only there for the end, but as a Warrior I felt I had an answer for everything, a Ranged Stun, the ability to Charge twice, Leap and Intervene to my banner, an on demand heal, a passive heal, 3 defensive CDs....etc.

I mean even in Cataclysm, I can't for the life of me understand why they gave Warriors the most mobile class at time with Charge, Intercept and Intervene, we also got Heroic Leap. Meanwhile Mages who had the most control got Ring of Frost -_-. And Throwdown just felt dirty.

well its not like warriors were crazy good in cata outside of s9 when they were op as fuck.. but ye leap was kinda retarded.. still is.. throwdown is 29138129 times better than dumb stormbolt.. also i think that ring of frost is alright when its casted.. the CD should be higher tho so you could only cast it like every 3 deeps(rip deep btw)

[Matthias]

just remove them ffs.. let ppl decide what they wanna do themselves and nerf/buff abilities instead of STATS.. playing some classes with low haste is just SO BORING

- - - Updated - - -



well its not like warriors were crazy good in cata outside of s9 when they were op as fuck.. but ye leap was kinda retarded.. still is.. throwdown is 29138129 times better than dumb stormbolt.. also i think that ring of frost is alright when its casted.. the CD should be higher tho so you could only cast it like every 3 deeps(rip deep btw)

My point is by the point we got to MoP it felt like everyone just had everything for every situation. Clearly too much was pruned though, I couldn't for the life of me understand why Warriors lost Overpower. At this point I'm missing abilities I had since WoTLK, no baseline Reflect, no Intervene, No Enrage Regen, more then anything I was our old Second Wind back so I can actually duel people again.

[Craaazyyy]

My point is by the point we got to MoP it felt like everyone just had everything for every situation. Clearly too much was pruned though, I couldn't for the life of me understand why Warriors lost Overpower. At this point I'm missing abilities I had since WoTLK, no baseline Reflect, no Intervene, No Enrage Regen, more then anything I was our old Second Wind back so I can actually duel people again.

well in mop they added too much stupid shit i agree.. the cc was retarded, but again the game was still much better

[Matthias]

I think it's worth noting that a reason for the prune I believe was to make the game less daunting for new players. I mean think of it. Some of us have over a decade of experience. A decade of keybinding, macro knowledge and knowing that there is an addon for everything. Pruning allows a new player to not be as inheritely bad if there are just less abilities to begin with.

This is fine for PvE....but in PvP I don't think so, especially since unless you play at official WoW Tournaments thus a 3000k+ player Addons are damn near mandatory.

[RelaZ]

I think it's worth noting that a reason for the prune I believe was to make the game less daunting for new players. I mean think of it. Some of us have over a decade of experience. A decade of keybinding, macro knowledge and knowing that there is an addon for everything. Pruning allows a new player to not be as inheritely bad if there are just less abilities to begin with.

This is fine for PvE....but in PvP I don't think so, especially since unless you play at official WoW Tournaments thus a 3000k+ player Addons are damn near mandatory.

It's a 10+ year old game and a small game mode on top of that (which requires you to do PvE first). Not a lot of new people are going to come back to WoW at this point no matter what they do to class design.

I'd rather they make class design enjoyable for those who actually play the game + old returning players (PvPers who quit 'cause they retardized everything in WoD+Legion) instead of some demographic that doesn't play the game and which is highly unlikely to start playing it.

[Matthias]

It's a 10+ year old game and a small game mode on top of that (which requires you to do PvE first). Not a lot of new people are going to come back to WoW at this point no matter what they do to class design.

I'd rather they make class design enjoyable for those who actually play the game + old returning players (PvPers who quit 'cause they retardized everything in WoD+Legion) instead of some demographic that doesn't play the game and which is highly unlikely to start playing it.

I'm talking about them grasping new players who haven't played the game. It can be daunting. But I personally find improving in PvP far more exciting then improving in PvE. They should deal with it.

[JoshuaNLG]

The template system is great, they're just not using it as much as they should be.

They're too afraid to just flat out nerf everything across the board by a huge margin and re-do PvP stat weights and damage, but it's needed, it's absurd right now, it's not fun, classes need their utility given back and some classes need some taken away.

PvP right now is literally just "pop your cooldowns and do your pve rotation until x dies" there's no strategy, previously you could play the underdog and still be able to outplay classes considered god tier, nowadays that's literally impossible because the tools no longer exist to outplay said opponent.