Who is your favorite Warchief and why?

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'd prefer some links from any quest database.

Try guns of northwatch for starters, second actually bother to look up the stuff your self none of it is rather hard to find

[Mehrunes]

I pulled it from what we already know about an enemy army besieging a fortified location, e.g. you need a large advantage in manpower, and losing 1/3 of your standing forces would be a pretty devastating setback for any army laying siege to a castle or fort. Orgrim didn't send his forces to retrieve Gul'dan and his allied clans without forethought - he did it to re-establish his army's size and hopefully bring about a Horde victory. Regardless of Orgrim's actions it was *Gul'dan* who precipitated the action here, not Orgrim. Trying to blame Orgrim for the loss when it was Gul'dan's act of betrayal that precipitated it seems pretty revisionist of the established lore.

Given how they continued to besiege Lordaeron before Orgrim sent troops after Gul'dan and humans did nothing prior to that, it's clear as day that Orcs still had such an advantage. And seriously, to re-establish his army's size? Really? I guess that's why he ordered the destruction of the clans that followed Gul'dan. Because nothing re-establishes army size like killing a 1/3rd of your forces with an army of equal strength, i.e. one that risks heavy losses in the process of that, leaving the last 1/3rd to fend for itself in hostile territory. You certainly convinced me of Orgrim's military genius right here And I'm sorry, is Orgrim some Gul'dan's puppet that has to dance to his every tune? I thought the entire premise of his rule as Warchief was being the opposite. Orgrim choosing to react that way to Gul'dan's treason, especially before ending the war, is on him.

[Aucald]

Given how they continued to besiege Lordaeron before Orgrim sent troops after Gul'dan and humans did nothing prior to that, it's clear as day that Orcs still had such an advantage. And seriously, to re-establish his army's size? Really? I guess that's why he ordered the destruction of the clans that followed Gul'dan. Because nothing re-establishes army size like killing a 1/3rd of your forces with an army of equal strength, i.e. one that risks heavy losses in the process of that, leaving the last 1/3rd to fend for itself in hostile territory. You certainly convinced me of Orgrim's military genius right here And I'm sorry, is Orgrim some Gul'dan's puppet that has to dance to his every tune? I thought the entire premise of his rule as Warchief was being the opposite. Orgrim choosing to react that way to Gul'dan's treason, especially before ending the war, is on him.

I'm not claiming Orgrim was a military genius, merely that the original action was Gul'dan's. Had Gul'dan not succumbed to power-lust and abandoned the Horde at Lordaeron the campaign might have ended quite differently. You're blaming Orgrim for his *reaction* to Gul'dan's departure, which is a fine point to make, but it doesn't bear on the original accusation - Gul'dan's departure was not Orgrim's fault and the loss at Lordaeron was a direct result of Gul'dan's departure, not mismanagement of the war-effort prior to Gul'dan's actions. Orgrim likely felt he had to punish the deserters because the loss of the Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer clans also prompted the departure of his Amani support - wrongheaded or not, it was still a reaction to Gul'dan's rash mistake to quit the battle on the eve of victory.

Orgrim has plenty of mistakes under his belt but Gul'dan's actions were not among them. I feel the loss at Lordaeron rests almost entirely on Gul'dan's shoulders.

[rowaasr13]

Try guns of northwatch for starters, second actually bother to look up the stuff your self none of it is rather hard to find

Tried it. It is about NON-HORDE PIRATE captain (oh wait, "privateer", right?) complaining that his fleet is being shot at. Hm, I wonder why? So fine example of how low Horde is when the quest to be a murderer paid by outlaw is Horde-only. Is this the best the "me smash"-faction fan can muster as excuse? Beyond pathetic. "Actually bother" to read what you referring to first yourself next time.

Oh, BTW, does existence of this piece of elven shit in Ratchet makes it valid target for wiping out? Am I doing your "Horde-logic" stuff right?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Tried it. It is about NON-HORDE PIRATE captain (oh wait, "privateer", right?) complaining that his fleet is being shot at. Hm, I wonder why? So fine example of how low Horde is when the quest to be a murderer paid by outlaw is Horde-only. Is this the best the "me smash"-faction fan can muster as excuse? Beyond pathetic. "Actually bother" to read what you referring to first yourself next time.

Oh, BTW, does existence of this piece of elven shit in Ratchet makes it valid target for wiping out? Am I doing your "Horde-logic" stuff right?

So let's look at this hilarity alliance being dicks magically now does not count when it's against neutral forces. You have ignored the other things dwarves invading both mulgore and barrens, the Kirin tor building up strength in silver pine and hillsbrad/south shore both fighting with the forsaken since classic, so I assume you are just hoping that by ignoring it the argument doesn't exist.

Yes the elven piece of shit that you gracefully declared with your alliance superiority was transporting moon shine.that totally justifies blowing up Rachet as it is the exact same thing as theramore being the alliances biggest staging ground on kalimdor and jaina flat out saying she is alliance. All your shit fit did is confirm that you have no clue what you are talking about and are so steeped in your own little bias that you actually thought you had a argument here.

If you had the urge to ever read a Warcraft book may I suggest cycle of hatred?

[rowaasr13]

So let's look at this hilarity alliance being dicks magically now does not count when it's against neutral forces.

"Neutral" fucking PIRATES. Is whitewashing your beloved Horde worth playing blind? Because there's no way you'd miss word "pirate" without a crippled vision.

You have ignored the other things dwarves invading both mulgore and barrens, the Kirin tor building up strength in silver pine and hillsbrad/south shore both fighting with the forsaken since classic, so I assume you are just hoping that by ignoring it the argument doesn't exist.

Hillsbrand/Southshore and Kirin Tor FIGHTING BACK (you know, it's called DALARAN crater for a reason), because their home, where they lived for years, is attacked - that's a crime in Shitorde eyes? Are you fucking serious? Well, it seems the fans themselves are perfect fit for the faction after all...

[Friendlyimmolation]

"Neutral" fucking PIRATES. Is whitewashing your beloved Horde worth playing blind? Because there's no way you'd miss word "pirate" without a crippled vision.

so lets go deep into fantasy where you arent at this point going into total cognitive dissonance , Their ships arent the only ones being fired on, and the whole point is that they are firing on ships headed to rachet a neutral port, the Horde and the Alliance had a treaty at this time none the less one that Thrall and Jaina go through strenuous lengths to uphold in cycle of hatred. Not to mention Somehow Alliance being dicks to neutral forces doesn't count Its explicitly said northwatch is firing on everyone. The Thalodan are privateers not pirates, transporting moon shine from booty bay to Rachet. Truly moonshiners can not escape the justice of the Alliance.

Hillsbrand/Southshore and Kirin Tor FIGHTING BACK (you know, it's called DALARAN crater for a reason), because their home, where they lived for years, is attacked - that's a crime in Shitorde eyes? Are you fucking serious? Well, it seems the fans themselves are perfect fit for the faction after all...

kirin tor come back into silverpine and attempt to start building power, if magisters came to westfall and began building a base would you let them do it? Dalaran wasn't neutral till wrath and only then because they wanted the blood elves's help. I assume you have conviently forgotten the Forsaken grew up in lordaeron too, they had/have as much right to the land as any Kirin tor mage would have actually even more, because ambermill was never kirin tor property, it originally belonged to gilnaes,.

And aside from that sad headcanon, we have no idea who started the fighting in hillsbrad, you have plenty of quests dealing with Alliance forces who have killed deathstalkers.

So instead of trying to come up with clever ways to add insults to the word "Horde" or spiraling into a rage how about you bother to post any real response? Because so far all you have posted is "facts don't matter when their against my point of view insult insult"


And just in case you forgot dwarves still invaded mulgore/barrens and alterac valley

[Chemical Ellis]

I don't necessarily like the idea of her being Warchief, but Sylvanas is by far my favorite character on this list. I just love how ruthless, how unapologetically evil she is. She's far smarter than any of the orcs, and without all that boring lipservice to honor, she's free to be a lot more fun. I'm sure that, someday, she'll see a big fall and end up some expansion's villain, but until then, I'll absolutely fanboy over our most badass leader.

[Mehrunes]

Hillsbrand/Southshore and Kirin Tor FIGHTING BACK (you know, it's called DALARAN crater for a reason), because their home, where they lived for years, is attacked - that's a crime in Shitorde eyes? Are you fucking serious? Well, it seems the fans themselves are perfect fit for the faction after all...

Dalaran is a crater because Kirin Tor pulled it out of the ground and teleported it to Northrend to fight the Scourge and Blue Dragonflight... Do you have anything remotely resembling a clue about lore, or is flailing around and throwing the tantrum about the Horde all you bring to the table? And we don't know who started hostilities in Hillsbrad and Southshore. We do know Kirin Tor started things in Ambermill though. Stormpikes started things Alterac. Other Dwarves started things in Mulgore and Barrens. Theramore soldiers outright attacked Horde players in Dustwallow.

[HordeFanboy]

If garrosh would lead on broken shore attack horde could win.

[DeicideUH]

If garrosh would lead on broken shore attack horde could win.

Yes. And knowing Garrosh, the Alliance would be used as bait and crushed by either the Legion (during the battle) or by the Horde (after it). Just as Garrosh would've planned.

- - - Updated - - -

kirin tor come back into silverpine and attempt to start building power, if magisters came to westfall and began building a base would you let them do it?

Makes no sense. Those were Dalarani/Gilnean lands to begin with. Westfall was never part of thalassian lands.

Dalaran wasn't neutral till wrath and only then because they wanted the blood elves's help. I assume you have conviently forgotten the Forsaken grew up in lordaeron too, they had/have as much right to the land as any Kirin tor mage would have actually even more, because ambermill was never kirin tor property, it originally belonged to gilnaes,.

You are conveniently forgetting the Forsaken were kidnapping people to use as gilnea pigs in their plague experiments and were advancing southward despite having Tirisfal for themselves. But hey, the problem must be those pesky humans trying to defend their lands.

And aside from that sad headcanon, we have no idea who started the fighting in hillsbrad, you have plenty of quests dealing with Alliance forces who have killed deathstalkers.

"Deathstalkers". That name doesn't suggest some kind of peace keeper or diplomatic force...

So instead of trying to come up with clever ways to add insults to the word "Horde" or spiraling into a rage how about you bother to post any real response? Because so far all you have posted is "facts don't matter when their against my point of view insult insult"


And just in case you forgot dwarves still invaded mulgore/barrens and alterac valley

I'll give you that. Dwarves did invade Mulgore/Barrens, and they shouldn't have done that.

Alterac, on the other hand... it belonged to Alterac, neither the dwarves nor Frostwolves. Both forces are invading and both consider that "their" land because the real owners have long been dead.

[Okacz]

I'd say pre-MoP Garrosh was just right for me. A leader who doesn't run away from battle, fights for the prosperity of his people, and in all that remains being honorable and unwilling to fight his enemies like a coward. Yeah, he still was quite a warmonger, but it's kinda what I prefer for a leader of a faction named "Horde" with axe wielding Orcs in the main row.

But since cherrypicking the period is kind of a cop out, probably Thrall. A solid leader who cared about the prosperity of his people (even tho they settled on a sun-burnt desert), and was both a powerful warrior and a shaman. Doomhammer would take the spot, but all things considered, he was kind of a total failure as a leader.

[Lodreh]

I have to go with Cairne after he defeats Garrosh during the duel... /sigh if only.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Makes no sense. Those were Dalarani/Gilnean lands to begin with. Westfall was never part of thalassian lands.

you're right I shouldn't have said come back, The forsaken quests had you investigate why they were there, when they figure out they are building up power via activating a ley line they go apeshit. THe lands were never part of Dalaran. Same thing with westfall never being part of Blood elf lands

You are conveniently forgetting the Forsaken were kidnapping people to use as gilnea pigs in their plague experiments and were advancing southward despite having Tirisfal for themselves. But hey, the problem must be those pesky humans trying to defend their lands.

couple of things, yea they were kidnapping people, the first time any one knows of it though is when Varian invades undercity. They already had tarrenmill, as it was ravaged by scourge. A alliance quest has you kill a forsaken messanger. Again the forsaken arent innocent, but none of the Alliance quests really screamed innoccent either.

"Deathstalkers". That name doesn't suggest some kind of peace keeper or diplomatic force...

Deathstalker is just what they call their armed forces.

Alterac, on the other hand... it belonged to Alterac, neither the dwarves nor Frostwolves. Both forces are invading and both consider that "their" land because the real owners have long been dead.

I will say the sovereign / imperialistic "duty" the dwarves had left no room for negotiations Either way, the frostwolves weren't hurting anyone by hiding deep in the valley until the dwarves showed up.

- - - Updated - - -

I have to go with Cairne after he defeats Garrosh during the duel... /sigh if only.

maybe we can kill magatha after legion.

[Zulkhan]

I understand vanilla times are old times, but it's baffling how some people forget that back then both factions were at each other throats and were pretty much even in terms of hostility and instigated conflicts.

About the Warchief matter, it's worth noting the fact that despite all the hate Thrall gets for choosing Durotar as home for the orcs, is Garrosh's own very Blackrock BFF (Malkorok) claiming in Tides of War that Durotar is the perfect place of living for the orcish race, as they should always endure that kind of living to keep their spirit and resolve strong.

[Deleted]

Doomhammer and Garrosh for me. They're the embodiment of what it means to be an Orc. Strength and Honour, warlike, to the point. Victory or Death. It describes them perfectly.

Although I love Ner'zhul as a character, he ultimately ruined his people and left Draenor broken. Not someone to be looking up to as a leader figure. His magical abilities, cunning strategy and ambition are awesome though.

And Thrall was fun during the Warcraft 3 and Vanilla WoW days but he has become too peaceful and too human. He doesn't resonate Orcish to me. And it has gone from bad to worse. If he returns to his roots I could accept him again. But not right now.

Vol'jin was a tool. A worthless tool that didn't do shit, even.

Sylvanas is much better than Vol'jin in the sense that she isn't peaceful and actually wants the Horde to win. But she's no Orc.

[Zulkhan]

"Deathstalkers". That name doesn't suggest some kind of peace keeper or diplomatic force...

Their Deathguards do what every Orgrimmar Grunt does as well. When it comes to Forsaken grimdark titles don't mean much.

Alterac, on the other hand... it belonged to Alterac, neither the dwarves nor Frostwolves. Both forces are invading and both consider that "their" land because the real owners have long been dead.

The Alliance itself stripped Alterac of its rights on the land through brute force. After the land effectively belonged to no one in particular the Frostwolves set themselves there and established a new homeland. The Stormpikes on the other hand invaded those claimed lands for their "sovereign imperative".

Alterac Valley is just a reversed Warsong Gulch/Ashenvale situation. Dwarves and Orcs both use the word "imperative" in regards of their actions on Alterac/Ashenvale, enlightening how the situations were meant to reflect each other but with reversed invaders.

[DeicideUH]

you're right I shouldn't have said come back, The forsaken quests had you investigate why they were there, when they figure out they are building up power via activating a ley line they go apeshit. THe lands were never part of Dalaran. Same thing with westfall never being part of Blood elf lands

I'll wait Chronicle II to see actual national borders, but I think Ambermill and other surrounding lands were Dalaran's to begin with.

couple of things, yea they were kidnapping people, the first time any one knows of it though is when Varian invades undercity.

Doesn't mean people from Hillsbrad wouldn't notice their own friends and loved ones disappearing and link it to the clearly ill-foreboding Forsaken encroaching in their lands.

They already had tarrenmill, as it was ravaged by scourge. A alliance quest has you kill a forsaken messanger. Again the forsaken arent innocent, but none of the Alliance quests really screamed innoccent either.

And Southshore was human territory. People that fought the Scourge and were trying to hold on to their lands, and then see those Forsaken coming from the north. Has any Forsaken storyline even tried diplomacy? Why would the humans trust them and leave them be? I mean, the Forsaken were already making plagues and kignapping people. WHY would Southshore just not try to defend itself from something that looks like a very real threat?

Deathstalker is just what they call their armed forces.

I know, and that's why humans killed them. Because they are armed forces from a hostile faction encroaching into their lands.

I will say the sovereign / imperialistic "duty" the dwarves had left no room for negotiations Either way, the frostwolves weren't hurting anyone by hiding deep in the valley until the dwarves showed up.

I won't defend any side in that conflict. In my eyes, both were wrong in some ways, and they both could tried diplomacy but failed to do so. It was a dispute between two invading forces.

Their Deathguards do what every Orgrimmar Grunt does as well. When it comes to Forsaken grimdark titles don't mean much.

Like I said above: humans had no reason to trust plague-creating human-kidnapping Forsaken, much less tolerate their armed foces invading their land.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Doesn't mean people from Hillsbrad wouldn't notice their own friends and loved ones disappearing and link it to the clearly ill-foreboding Forsaken encroaching in their lands.

The over whelming majoirty of prisoners were scarlets, pretty sure it covers that in one of the warcraft mangas.

And Southshore was human territory. People that fought the Scourge and were trying to hold on to their lands, and then see those Forsaken coming from the north. Has any Forsaken storyline even tried diplomacy? Why would the humans trust them and leave them be? I mean, the Forsaken were already making plagues and kignapping people. WHY would Southshore just not try to defend itself from something that looks like a very real threat?

there are several forsaken who mention something about being treated as monsters when they tried to rejoin their familiy, cant remember his name but I think one of them is a tailoring trainer in UC. It also goes to say Sylvanas looked for allies everywhere, the Horde just happened to be the ones that took them in.

I know, and that's why humans killed them. Because they are armed forces from a hostile faction encroaching into their lands.

You are tasked with killing several humans for the "murder" of deathguards as well as leading attacks on forsaken supply lines from UC to Tarren mill. FOrsaken are pretty blunt and I dont think they would lie about circumstances of death to their own forsaken. Again there is no real definitive answer on who started the fighting in hillsbrad. I dont imagine the humans would be tolerant of the FOrsaken and vice versa.

[Zulkhan]

Like I said above: humans had no reason to trust plague-creating human-kidnapping Forsaken, much less tolerate their armed foces invading their land.

I wouldn't deny that, but humans never shown to have much interest in diplomacy as well. The Kirin Tor sneaked just around Forsaken's claimed territories to reactivate a dormant ley line. That's going to trigger investigations first and hostility later for sure.