Brexit demographics

[Release]

I'm from England and I personally know a lot of people who voted leave. The main driver was immigration, nothing else. People felt they had made their voices heard for years on immigration from Eastern Europe being too high and had been subsequently ignored, with this being the result.

[Deleted]

They are interconnected. A cheap immigrant can operate a conveyor belt and serve tables. A cheap immigrant cannot displace an accountant, giving the accountant more bargaining power in negotiations.

I didn't say they weren't, I just noted that the market was more important in said valuation. It seems we agree upon it.

It's wholly dependent on globalization. Certain jobs can be outsourced, certain suppliers can be removed and favourable deals can be signed. The working class will be negatively affected by this while I will be positively affected by this because I can deal with FX, SoX, IFRS and US GAAP. As globalisation places a higher emphasis on white collar workers in richer countries, the demand for my services increases.

We are talking about two different things right now
I am talking about how the spending and dividing of wealth in a chainized store and mass produced goods economy is hurting the working class within a nation. That is of course only worsened by globalization, but what I am talking about is something that tends to have a larger impact on the working.

[Triks]

[QUOTE=Lemposs;44496610]I didn't say they weren't, I just noted that the market was more important in said valuation. It seems we agree upon it.[QUOTE]
Seems so but for different reasons. As with anything, market forces don't exist in a vacuum.

We are talking about two different things right now
I am talking about how the spending and dividing of wealth in a chainized store and mass produced goods economy is hurting the working class within a nation. That is of course only worsened by globalization, but what I am talking about is something that tends to have a larger impact on the working.

I will give you some anectodal evidence why the main driver for it is globalization.

During communism, all of the produce, meat, dairy, bread and whatever was linked to agriculture was made in Bulgaria. All of the shoes, clothes, woodwork and metalurgy were also Bulgarian. What couldn't be consumed was exported to the rest of the Soviet block and the Middle East. By that I mean entire trains were loaded with shoes and clothes from Peshtera and were shipped off to Ufa. Entire trains were loaded with canned goods and copper from Asenovgrad, Plovdiv and Stara Zagora and were shipped off to Leningrad and Moscow.

Nowadays, our apples are Greek, our cabbage is Polish and our tomatoes are Turkish. One of the factors could the mishandled privatisation of our agriculture but considering that Peshtera retained its clothes factories, yet our clothes are from Turkey, Italy and Yemen, I digress. Suppliers and markets will always buy from the cheapest source.

[Deleted]

I will give you some anectodal evidence why the main driver for it is globalization.

During communism, all of the produce, meat, dairy, bread and whatever was linked to agriculture was made in Bulgaria. All of the shoes, clothes, woodwork and metalurgy were also Bulgarian. What couldn't be consumed was exported to the rest of the Soviet block and the Middle East. By that I mean entire trains were loaded with shoes and clothes from Peshtera and were shipped off to Ufa. Entire trains were loaded with canned goods and copper from Asenovgrad, Plovdiv and Stara Zagora and were shipped off to Leningrad and Moscow.

Nowadays, our apples are Greek, our cabbage is Polish and our tomatoes are Turkish. One of the factors could the mishandled privatisation of our agriculture but considering that Peshtera retained its clothes factories, yet our clothes are from Turkey, Italy and Yemen, I digress. Suppliers and markets will always buy from the cheapest source.

I don't disagree with you about it, I am simply noting a different aspect off it (the internal aspect). And I tend to be more outspoken about that one, because it is something that we actually have some amount of power to handle, whereas globalization is almost impossible to stop in the aspect of losing working class jobs and so forth.

[Astalnar]

they are not ignorant - they simply put in ton of work to not live in those conditions - its not their fault "rest of people" are to f... lazy to do something with their life.

Sure, I can agree with that. We can agree there is correlation between the level of education and the economic situation.

But it still doesn't change the fact, that it will be the less educated people who will have to deal with their neighbourhoods being transformed into no-go zones because of the influx of migrants. It still doesn't change the fact that it will be the less educated who have to deal with their jobs being exported out of country. It still doesn't change the fact that their taxes end up supporting the life of foreigners they had no intention of supporting in the first place. All while the highly educated bitch and moan about their research grants being taken away because the "intolerant racists" decided to vote leave.

Now tell me, if the regular voter has to choose between his own livelihood, and some distant research grant that won't help him in the least, how do you think he'll decide? All while being branded as intolerant racist by those "highly educated".

[ati87]

No offense but there are different experiences with immigration that corelate strongly with income which in turn corelates strongly with education:
If you live next to an afghani doctor and his grade school teacher wife, chances are those are educated people who adhere to our norms and values in social interactions, no matter what their faith is or how their household is structured. This is because the instituitions of educations filter out those that are completely unwilling to learn reasonable debate and scientific method.
If you live in a neighborhood with a high % of low education immigrants your experience will be vastly different. Violence and unreasonable behaviour are what you experience, as well as nationalism and glorification up to a radical point of the culture they left behind.

If I belong to the first group of course immigration seems like a good deal. Because immigration like that is a good deal!
But as it seems like a good deal to the first group, it seems like a shit deal to the second group. The same thing applies: Because immigration like that is a shit deal.

Both are perfectly reasonable in their assessment, what is not reasonable is to completely reject immigration or glorify it to a point where you argue for no selective process at all (not security, but in terms of education and marketable skills).

You know you talk BS when the cities/area's with the most diverse ethnicities overwhelmingly voted to stay and those cities with the historical least voted for leave.

So yes allot of people that live in white area's got semi pissed when suddenly those others (who are also white btw) moved to their cities. But a large group of people, those that have grown up, are living with people from different cultures and are friends don't hate ''minorities''.

Not everybody is hatefull as you, it's you and people like you.

[Knolan]

As I am reading this thread and looking at very interesting points, I must say, I am VERY surprised that this thread did not become a "OMFG IT WAS THE OLD AND STUPID, THEY ARE ALL RACIST AND WORSE THAN HITLER" thread.

[ati87]

Sure, I can agree with that. We can agree there is correlation between the level of education and the economic situation.

But it still doesn't change the fact, that it will be the less educated people who will have to deal with their neighbourhoods being transformed into no-go zones because of the influx of migrants. It still doesn't change the fact that it will be the less educated who have to deal with their jobs being exported out of country. It still doesn't change the fact that their taxes end up supporting the life of foreigners they had no intention of supporting in the first place. All while the highly educated bitch and moan about their research grants being taken away because the "intolerant racists" decided to vote leave.

Now tell me, if the regular voter has to choose between his own livelihood, and some distant research grant that won't help him in the least, how do you think he'll decide? All while being branded as intolerant racist by those "highly educated".

The only reason their are no go zones is because you make it a no go zone for yourself. Grow a pair and just talk with people who maybe are a bit browner then you or a bit whiter then you (the avg east-Europeaan)

People from Muslim countries and East-European countries are allot nicer then the avg west Europeaan if you show and treat them with a little bit of common respect and decency.

[Flarelaine]

Sure, I can agree with that. We can agree there is correlation between the level of education and the economic situation.

But it still doesn't change the fact, that it will be the less educated people who will have to deal with their neighbourhoods being transformed into no-go zones because of the influx of migrants. It still doesn't change the fact that it will be the less educated who have to deal with their jobs being exported out of country. It still doesn't change the fact that their taxes end up supporting the life of foreigners they had no intention of supporting in the first place. All while the highly educated bitch and moan about their research grants being taken away because the "intolerant racists" decided to vote leave.

Now tell me, if the regular voter has to choose between his own livelihood, and some distant research grant that won't help him in the least, how do you think he'll decide? All while being branded as intolerant racist by those "highly educated".

It would appear logical to limit competition by excluding immigrants. Why bother to actually compete?

[Triks]

I don't disagree with you about it, I am simply noting a different aspect off it (the internal aspect). And I tend to be more outspoken about that one, because it is something that we actually have some amount of power to handle, whereas globalization is almost impossible to stop in the aspect of losing working class jobs and so forth.

That would require a state-planned economy, though. So far only China and Russia have been able to do it effectively and in the case of China, they have resorted to "importing" factories and skilled workers.

- - - Updated - - -

The only reason their are no go zones is because you make it a no go zone for yourself. Grow a pair and just talk with people who maybe are a bit browner then you or a bit whiter then you (the avg east-Europeaan)

People from Muslim countries and East-European countries are allot nicer then the avg west Europeaan if you show and treat them with a little bit of common respect and decency.

I think decades of portraying us as Ivan Drago and Igor have done more harm than good.

[Flarelaine]

I think decades of portraying us as Ivan Drago and Igor have done more harm than good.

No doubt about it.

That Melissa McCarthy spy movie last year also had a Bulgarian villain. She was a piece of shit, but at least she was hot.

And don't forget you also got Viktor Krum!

[Triks]

No doubt about it.

That Melissa McCarthy spy movie last year also had a Bulgarian villain. She was a piece of shit, but at least she was hot.

And don't forget you also got Viktor Krum!

If I had to choose between Viktor Krum and Ivan Drago, I'd be Ivan Drago any day. A maxed out Dolph Lundgren beats some wimpy wizard lol.

[Deleted]

That would require a state-planned economy, though. So far only China and Russia have been able to do it effectively and in the case of China, they have resorted to "importing" factories and skilled workers.

Well, I was being idealistic. Ideally either full blown capitalism would solve it (it likely wouldn't), or we essentially have to force taxation before pricing (again, something very unlikely to happen).
The issue simply is that we have a lot of stores and shops that are owned by large corporations living hundreds of miles away, where every single pound that you use, only around 20-30 pence are returned/reflected back into the local community, and that does has some consequence, one of them being that the loss of that circulation within the local community is "denying" the creation of jobs and spending. And it is especially hurting the working class people.

It is also why I found the notion that the Brexit would be this shaking off the EU elite to be somewhat foolish (thankfully it didn't seem to be a well believed notion), when really a lot of the elite was/is internal and that there doesn't seem to be any intend to go against them.

[Release]

I live in a town which has seen very high levels of immigration from Romania, Poland etc. They generally arrive and are willing to do the jobs that people here do not want to do, a lot of them work in a local factory which produces cakes or drive taxis. That factory won't be outsourced as logistically it makes sense for it to remain in the UK and they needed the workers from Eastern Europe. There's been a few issues but most of them I have met have been polite, happy enough to get on with it and the world hasn't ended.

However, the sudden influx of immigration has put severe strain on our education system as they are all enrolled in our schools, speak English to varying degrees and usually start behind English children. It has also put strain on our welfare and housing systems and caused controversy as british people have a perception that houses go to people from Poland above themselves which in reality is rare but that doesn't mean it has never happened.

The crux of the matter is not that British people are racist they aren't it's the Volume of immigration we've seen in a short period of time. This isn't a black and white issue but in my own personal experience people weren't worried about jobs as they know where the polish etc work and aren't bothered but the high sudden volume is why ultimately the leave vote carried.

(Also I should add and this is a problem to varying degrees in different cities but people also take issue with immigrants not fully acculturating with British society. This seems to be a problem mainly focused on people from India and Pakistan who all live together and set up shops next to each other and turn a street into mini India)

[Deleted]

So much for the "those who voted for Brexit were stupid" narrative.

If you meant less educated voted leave, you'd be right. Its what the stats show.

- - - Updated - - -

Heres a different take. They are literately brainwashed in college. They tried to do it to me. Ive seen it work on thousands more. Ya, no. These people arnt smarter. They are actually much much stupider and were susceptible to have their mind ward and assimilated into the borg. Also bias. Fake news. Thats should be about everything.

Wow. Im guessing you're a trumpet and/or didn't finish your university education.

Brainwashing universities lol.

[Runenwächter]

Do you have any real evidence that EU immigrants into the uk suffer from the behavioural and social problems you list in the bolded text.

It would obviously depend on what culture someone comes from and how close to the cultural values their culture of origin is, but do you get a significant amount of low education immigrants from EU countries? If so which would that be?

[Triks]

[QUOTE=Lemposs;44497157]Well, I was being idealistic. Ideally either full blown capitalism would solve it (it likely wouldn't), or we essentially have to force taxation before pricing (again, something very unlikely to happen).[QUOTE]
In the case of "full blown capitalism" you have corporations acting as omptimisers and you have the free market acting as the regulating body. In the latter situation you have capital flight, unless it was enforced by some very severe laws.

The issue simply is that we have a lot of stores and shops that are owned by large corporations living hundreds of miles away, where every single pound that you use, only around 20-30 pence are returned/reflected back into the local community, and that does has some consequence, one of them being that the loss of that circulation within the local community is "denying" the creation of jobs and spending. And it is especially hurting the working class people.

That's why globalisation is so bad for the working class. Starbucks and Costa bankrupt local coffee shops not because they offer better coffee but because they are cheaper. A good barista costs money, a well-stocked library of books costs money and hiring musicians and other entertainers also costs money. The only venues that survive (and sometimes even beat) the larger corporations are fast-food chains. In Bulgaria, McDonald's is getting its ass handed to it by local doner kebab shops and Alladin (a kebab/fast food chain).

It is also why I found the notion that the Brexit would be this shaking off the EU elite to be somewhat foolish (thankfully it didn't seem to be a well believed notion), when really a lot of the elite was/is internal and that there doesn't seem to be any intend to go against them.

I can't comment on that - I am not British. From what I have seen it was against immigration and globalization.

[Thalassian Bob]

I live in a town which has seen very high levels of immigration from Romania, Poland etc. They generally arrive and are willing to do the jobs that people here do not want to do, a lot of them work in a local factory which produces cakes or drive taxis. That factory won't be outsourced as logistically it makes sense for it to remain in the UK and they needed the workers from Eastern Europe. There's been a few issues but most of them I have met have been polite, happy enough to get on with it and the world hasn't ended.

However, the sudden influx of immigration has put severe strain on our education system as they are all enrolled in our schools, speak English to varying degrees and usually start behind English children. It has also put strain on our welfare and housing systems and caused controversy as british people have a perception that houses go to people from Poland above themselves which in reality is rare but that doesn't mean it has never happened.

The crux of the matter is not that British people are racist they aren't it's the Volume of immigration we've seen in a short period of time. This isn't a black and white issue but in my own personal experience people weren't worried about jobs as they know where the polish etc work and aren't bothered but the high sudden volume is why ultimately the leave vote carried.

Good comment.

[Runenwächter]

You know you talk BS when the cities/area's with the most diverse ethnicities overwhelmingly voted to stay and those cities with the historical least voted for leave.

So yes allot of people that live in white area's got semi pissed when suddenly those others (who are also white btw) moved to their cities. But a large group of people, those that have grown up, are living with people from different cultures and are friends don't hate ''minorities''.

Not everybody is hatefull as you, it's you and people like you.

What about Hitler? Or am I literally Hitler now? Please keep throwing temper tantrums, it will get you somewhere someday.

[Flarelaine]

If I had to choose between Viktor Krum and Ivan Drago, I'd be Ivan Drago any day. A maxed out Dolph Lundgren beats some wimpy wizard lol.

Possibly, though Krum was arguably the least wimpy of the lot. And unlike Drago, at least he was not the brutish villain.