Time for US to leave NATO?

[kavousanos]

I'd be interested to know how much of our national debt is owed to the countries that we also protect.

Aaaaaah you americans and your illiterate worldview.
Newsflash: America protects noone but its own interests. They evacuate as soon as trouble starts, like in Iran, then make movies about how heroic they were. Where was america when Russia invaded Ukraine? When Israel invaded Palestine?
Fighting poor people for oil I guess. Because fighting either of those countries off would require balls. As opposed to bombing tents through a remotely controlled drone.
You are being spoonfed lies.
But sure I totally agree that 'murica should not be in Nato. And yeah, PLEASE stop "helping" other countries as well. Building your wall and staying in it would be great for all of us.

[Shadowferal]

As for leaving, be my guest. One, it would be an incentive to maybe have an European army

Army needs to paid for and where would that come from?

[Azadina]

I listed the more well known equipment, here is a full list for Army only:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipm...therlands_Army

We used to have 116 Leopard 2A6 tanks, guess who we recently sold 100 tanks to? Finland :/

You are lucky your country isn't any closer to Middle-East. That list wouldn't stop a thug group like ISIS.

[Cyanu]

you mean if it's time for the USA to leave from the organization it created with the purpose of fulfilling it's strategic vision worldwide?

that would certainly give future historians and analysts quite a riddle to solve, why on earth did he leave?

even Trump is not that stupid, he has already changed his mind on this and claimed the importance NATO has for him, just like he will backpedal on other unrealistic stuff he said to get elected, after all who will judge him you? you'd still vote for him even he shot someone in the middle of the 5th avenue

[Deleted]

Wrong! Two totally separate issues, no one has to take any refugees.

Yeah cleaning up your own mess is hard I guess.

[Deleted]

You are lucky your country isn't any closer to Middle-East. That list wouldn't stop a thug group like ISIS.

It's not meant to. Syria alone has as many people as we do, Iraq nearly twice the number. ISIS is estimated to be between 80.000 and 100.000.

The whole idea of NATO and now our cooperation with Germany is that we don't have to go it alone. Even if an EU army would never emerge, I'm hoping the instability in the Middle East and Captain Orange in the White House will inspire my Country and Germany to expand the military and the cooperation. As large as the Dutch dependency on the US is, our largest trade partner is Germany by far. And Germany and Belgium together is more than half our trade. The UK is - for the moment - 3rd on the export list followed by france.

It's why Geert Wilders is a complete and utter moron for suggesting we leave the EU. Sure the EU should take a good look at what it's doing and maybe dial it down a few notches in some areas and it should focus on what it really is good for economic cooperation.

P.S. as the EU is now, I'm not sure an EU Army is the best way to go. Decision making in the EU is dreadful enough as it is, a military needs more effective decision making.

[Flarelaine]

I am curious what would happen to Turkey if you leave NATO. You know, the base of your power projection in the middle east.

Actually, not having to accomodate a supposed ally may even make sorting the Middle East easier. The Incirlik base would have to be moved, but then, the Kurds seem to be helpful folks in the fight against ISIS. They provide practically all the boots on the ground the campaign needs but they can't be properly supported right now because of Turkey.

[Deleted]

Thread like this can give cancer. Sure better be without alliances, than in strongest military alliance in global history. Your choice.

[Slant]

You are lucky your country isn't any closer to Middle-East. That list wouldn't stop a thug group like ISIS.

Hey, if anyone raids the Netherlands it's Germany. We won't let a punk ass thug group from the Middle East play around in our backyard. Sheesh...

[Skroe]

Well, that is actually something we know how to deal with. We'd just tell the Italian Shipbuilder they can build the bough and the left part of the rear, which will get married to the rest of the ship in the Netherlands. :P

People overseas often shake their heads at the way we build the Eurofighter. The hull from France, the cockpit from Germany, the left wing and the rudder from England, the right wing and the engine hull from Italy. That's how those came to be, to get everyone involved. :P

The key is not to build jigsaws, though. The key is to specialise. Italians aren't exactly known for their premium shipbuilding qualities. Let them build small offroad vehicles/Mraps in the Jeep/Hmmv size area. With some luck, we'll get a sturdy sportscar with leather seats! And let the English build ships. They know how to do that. The French get fighter jets, the spanish get Transportation/Logistics and so on and so forth. Give each country something to specialise in and draw from the giant funds of the EU. You'd see one heck of an efficient war machine.

The Eurofighter is an example of it being done right, absolutely. I mean considering it's the best fighter in the world not named F-22 (and better than the F-22 in in-close air to air combat), and came in about $30 million cheaper in terms of unit cost (and about 1/3rd the price of the F-22 if R&D is included)... yeah, it's a fine example. In many ways the Eurofighter saved the day just by existing. Imagine if it had failed and Europe had to rely on aging F-16s and Tornados. Instead Europe is defended by hundreds of one of the best fighters in the world, allowing the US's meager F-22 fleet to go elsewhere. The only downside is of course, not really being stealthy, the Eurofighter's expiration date is far sooner than the F-22s.

Eurofighters and F-35s, working in tandem, armed with MBDA Meteors is a fucking scary proposition though. Have F-35s do EW and utilize their superior sensors to pick off from extreme range, then have Eurofighters charge in to clean up the ones that got away.

But a counter-example is the hell that's been the A400M program.

[Willhouse]

Is it time for US to get kicked out of NATO?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I think Canada should get kicked out for electing PM Boob Punch and Germany for electing Chancellor Rape Hider.

What about President Pussygrab McDaughterfucker?

[Skroe]

What about President Pussygrab McDaughterfucker?

Dude, look. It's bad enough we elected this piece of trash. But do you need to remind us that the so-called President Trump's ideal woman turns out to be his own daughter?

That's just cold. =(

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Dude, look. It's bad enough we elected this piece of trash. But do you need to remind us that the so-called President Trump's ideal woman turns out to be his own daughter?

That's just cold. =(

It just makes sense. You know the story of Narcissus? Well, until human cloning is available the closest Trump can get to fucking himself is to bang his own children.

[Slant]

The Eurofighter is an example of it being done right, absolutely. I mean considering it's the best fighter in the world not named F-22 (and better than the F-22 in in-close air to air combat), and came in about $30 million cheaper in terms of unit cost (and about 1/3rd the price of the F-22 if R&D is included)... yeah, it's a fine example. In many ways the Eurofighter saved the day just by existing. Imagine if it had failed and Europe had to rely on aging F-16s and Tornados. Instead Europe is defended by hundreds of one of the best fighters in the world, allowing the US's meager F-22 fleet to go elsewhere. The only downside is of course, not really being stealthy, the Eurofighter's expiration date is far sooner than the F-22s.

Eurofighters and F-35s, working in tandem, armed with MBDA Meteors is a fucking scary proposition though. Have F-35s do EW and utilize their superior sensors to pick off from extreme range, then have Eurofighters charge in to clean up the ones that got away.

But a counter-example is the hell that's been the A400M program.

The A400M has gotten a lot of negative publicity, that is correct. But I'm fairly confident they will hammer out the kinks soon enough. The problems that are reported mainly concern small parts and software glitches. It doesn't reflect on the really expensive things like the airframe or overall concept. I'm pretty confident it will be a superior replacement to the C130 that we're using up until now.

[Kellhound]

Well, that is actually something we know how to deal with. We'd just tell the Italian Shipbuilder they can build the bough and the left part of the rear, which will get married to the rest of the ship in the Netherlands. :P

People overseas often shake their heads at the way we build the Eurofighter. The hull from France, the cockpit from Germany, the left wing and the rudder from England, the right wing and the engine hull from Italy. That's how those came to be, to get everyone involved. :P

The key is not to build jigsaws, though. The key is to specialise. Italians aren't exactly known for their premium shipbuilding qualities. Let them build small offroad vehicles/Mraps in the Jeep/Hmmv size area. With some luck, we'll get a sturdy sportscar with leather seats! And let the English build ships. They know how to do that. The French get fighter jets, the spanish get Transportation/Logistics and so on and so forth. Give each country something to specialise in and draw from the giant funds of the EU. You'd see one heck of an efficient war machine.

The Italians are know for building fast beautiful ships, with sketchy real world performance. But they are often works of maritime art....

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The A400M has gotten a lot of negative publicity, that is correct. But I'm fairly confident they will hammer out the kinks soon enough. The problems that are reported mainly concern small parts and software glitches. It doesn't reflect on the really expensive things like the airframe or overall concept. I'm pretty confident it will be a superior replacement to the C130 that we're using up until now.

The issues with the AM400 have cost them a lot of sales to the C-130J, including France. It cost more to buy and operate than the C-130 and it hauls less than a C-17. It fills a niche, but it isnt really a replacement for the Herc.

[Shefu]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...017-story.html

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/03/news...o-theresa-may/

With most of the countries in NATO not honoring the agreement of spending 2% of GDP on military spending it seems like it may be time for the US to leave. Most countries don't even spend 1%. Disgraceful! The free ride is over and hopefully Trump keeps his campaign promise of pulling out or making the other countries pay their fair share.

The age of the stupid is truly upon us. Do you guys really don't care to make sure something you say doesn't sound idiotic, or the ignorance is that big?

[Deleted]

The Eurofighter is an example of it being done right, absolutely. I mean considering it's the best fighter in the world not named F-22 (and better than the F-22 in in-close air to air combat), and came in about $30 million cheaper in terms of unit cost (and about 1/3rd the price of the F-22 if R&D is included)... yeah, it's a fine example. In many ways the Eurofighter saved the day just by existing. Imagine if it had failed and Europe had to rely on aging F-16s and Tornados. Instead Europe is defended by hundreds of one of the best fighters in the world, allowing the US's meager F-22 fleet to go elsewhere. The only downside is of course, not really being stealthy, the Eurofighter's expiration date is far sooner than the F-22s.

Eurofighters and F-35s, working in tandem, armed with MBDA Meteors is a fucking scary proposition though. Have F-35s do EW and utilize their superior sensors to pick off from extreme range, then have Eurofighters charge in to clean up the ones that got away.

But a counter-example is the hell that's been the A400M program.

Every damn thread you are in is filled with military hardware porn.

You people seem to miss the part where most of your enemies moved over to guerrila warfare making all this expensive junk useless.

Maybe elected a commander-in-chief or a general with a brain then spend further billions on white elephants.

[Skroe]

Every damn thread you are is filled with military hardware porn.

You people seem to miss the part where most of your enemies moved over to guerrila warfare making all this expensive junk useless.

Maybe elected a commander-in-chief or a general with a brain then spend further billions on white elephants.

(1) It's only ever filled with "military hardware porn" that puts it in context of larger policy issues. The specific discussion we were having, which you haven't read above, is about the European versus US defense industrial base, which is at the very center of constructing a European defense policy. Furthermore, consider exactly what I said about the F-22 there. It is a finite resource. There are 125 combat coded ones. The more Eurofighters there are, the more that finite resource can be allocated to places the Eurofighter isn't.

I'm sorry if the intricacies of this go above your head.


(2) The US's hobby is fighting terrorism. The US's main defense occupation is strategic defense against Russia and China. That is the official line of the US military, which identified Russia as it's chief adversary (and China in the future).

The US is also in year 4 of a 15 year rearmament on the scale of the 1980s, to replace that 1980s equipment. So in context with (1), it's directly relevant. Sorry, we aren't going to replace F-15s with crop dusters just to fight terrorists.

[Deleted]

(1) It's only ever filled with "military hardware porn" that puts it in context of larger policy issues. The specific discussion we were having, which you haven't read above, is about the European versus US defense industrial base, which is at the very center of constructing a European defense policy. Furthermore, consider exactly what I said about the F-22 there. It is a finite resource. There are 125 combat coded ones. The more Eurofighters there are, the more that finite resource can be allocated to places the Eurofighter isn't.

I'm sorry if the intricacies of this go above your head.


(2) The US's hobby is fighting terrorism. The US's main defense occupation is strategic defense against Russia and China. That is the official line of the US military, which identified Russia as it's chief adversary (and China in the future).

The US is also in year 4 of a 15 year rearmament on the scale of the 1980s, to replace that 1980s equipment. So in context with (1), it's directly relevant. Sorry, we aren't going to replace F-15s with crop dusters just to fight terrorists.

Did you get to the part where virtually every single major invasion of every country including recent US invasions was unsuccessful, even though all this unprecedented technology was being deployed? Do you people never learn? It is very simple

If a country doesn't want you there they will drive you out with homemade explosives and small arms fire. A 4 year old could work out your military expenditure is unsustainable.

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I think it's time to leave NATO and the UN.
It's time to stop being the "world police," that everyone hates us for and let people deal with their own problems whilst we deal with our own.

Here's what the US thinks of itself: a shining knight in armor rushing to the rescue of the world.

Here's what everyone else thinks of the US: an imperial power trying to secure as many trade and geopolitical advantages as possible. An imperial power consistently dragging other countries into wars nothing to do with them that sells out its friends when they are actually needed.

You can't be trusted. You want to leave NATO, please f*** off. Sacrifice your own grunts for oil.