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  1. #141
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    If you are stupid, then you can't be good at academics, because academics (well, most of them, in any case) require quite an amount of thinking to get through successfully. Not all people who have gotten a degree are geniuses, and not all people without higher education are idiots; but an average degree holder, you bet, is far ahead in terms of intelligence and smartness of an average school drop-out. And smarter and more intelligent people tend to make a more informed voting decision.
    That's all irrelevant. A brilliant astrophysicist is not better at understanding say economics than an average Joe. Specialization is the thing. Hell Astrophysicists often suck at other physics specializations and vice versa.

    And don't confuse smartness with IQ with intelligence. Being an academic might not be the smartest thing in the grand scheme of things. Being a plumber in a world that needs more plumbers might be smarter. That was just an example.

    In a world where THE EXPERTS cannot agree on the long term results of Brexit. Anyone, I repeat ANYONE is smart enough to decide what's best. Because all we can agree on - with brexit life will continue in one way, without it in another and no one knows which is better LONG TERM. I said KNOWS. Everybody knows there will be issues SHORT TERM after Brexit. They are expected, they are even calculated. One side just screams "The end is nigh" the other "oh get a grip you lil' cunt, we'll pull through".
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  2. #142
    Me and my wife are just fed up really.

    We have been paying our tax like good little citizens for 15 years now, saving £50k deposit, working our asses off and we still can't get a house (We have no kids yet which helps) You have no idea how frustrating it is seeing new housing go up only to be quickly filled by people who don't speak a word of English, how can they afford it????

    Rent is too expensive £900 + and we need a combined income of £80,000 a year to get a mortgage to buy a simple house. Don't get me wrong i'm not blaming it all on immigration but it is a huge factor, buy-to-let landlords don't help the situation either. We see old houses in my area bought by foreign investors and they just sit empty doing sod all, there is now two down my road.

    This is just the tip of a very big iceberg that is slowly working its way through the middle/working class.

    Don't get me wrong if we had a house we would 100% be happy with nothing to complain about. Its just so frustrating.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by tollshot View Post
    Unemployment is low and has been for many years. Those out of work are unemployed because they want to be.
    You love your generalised sweeping statements don't you, unemployed are lazy, leave voters are racist etc. What a ridiculous statement that everybody without a job doesn't want one. Have you asked all the British farm workers, factory workers, care workers and those in the service industry pre 2000 why they don't want to work anymore? Did they all just suddenly decide they didn't want to do these jobs anymore or has something changed that a lot of posts are now filled by low skilled immigration.


    Quote Originally Posted by tollshot View Post
    What makes you think that immigration levels will drop post brexit? It was one of the very first brexit promises that the brexit muppets distanced themselves from after the referendum.
    Another blatant misconception by the remainers. I often wonder if it is the remain side being ignorant as I don't recall during the campaign or the live debates anybody saying that immigration will be stopped.

  4. #144
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's all irrelevant. A brilliant astrophysicist is not better at understanding say economics than an average Joe. Specialization is the thing. Hell Astrophysicists often suck at other physics specializations and vice versa.

    And don't confuse smartness with IQ with intelligence. Being an academic might not be the smartest thing in the grand scheme of things. Being a plumber in a world that needs more plumbers might be smarter. That was just an example.

    In a world where THE EXPERTS cannot agree on the long term results of Brexit. Anyone, I repeat ANYONE is smart enough to decide what's best. Because all we can agree on - with brexit life will continue in one way, without it in another and no one knows which is better LONG TERM. I said KNOWS. Everybody knows there will be issues SHORT TERM after Brexit. They are expected, they are even calculated. One side just screams "The end is nigh" the other "oh get a grip you lil' cunt, we'll pull through".
    No, he is better at understanding economics, because working in astrophysics for many years has taught him how to analyze information, has taught him logic and scientific method. A brilliant astrophysicist, knowing as much about economy as an average Joe, will make a much more informed voting decision with regards to economy than him.

    Which is better long term is pretty clear. Both from common sense, which tells one that cutting economical and territorial ties with dozens countries is a silly idea - and from history, in which all these nationalistic decisions always led to the same outcome. Hence the distribution on the first plot: people who are used to thinking tend to choose the wise path, while those who are not tend to choose the naive one. Experts can argue about anything, there are some experts who still disagree with basic Quantum Mechanics postulates - and that's good that these arguments are ongoing, only they don't mean that the opinions have equal significance.
    Last edited by May90; 2017-02-08 at 09:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  5. #145
    This is just a pathetic attempt to undermine the validity of the vote. The idea that someone with a degree in media studies from a polytechnic is more qualified to make the right decision than someone who's successfully run a business for years and years is complete bollocks.

  6. #146
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    No, he is better at understanding economics, because working in astrophysics for many years has taught him how to analyze information, has taught him logic and scientific method. A brilliant astrophysicist, knowing as much about economy as an average Joe, will make a much more informed voting decision with regards to economy than him.
    No. They know how to analyze astrophysical data, but not economical. Economics is not hard science. Logic in economics is not intuitive. Demand invites Supply but Supply can create Demand. Cause and effect are one and the same. That was just an example.

    No one knows how economics truly works, not even economists.

    In fact logic, scientific method and being used to analyse astrophysical data will be DETRIMENTAL to understanding economics. Average Joe might be more capable given that he LIVES closer to it. Common sense beats Scientific sense in Economics.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Which is better long term is pretty clear.
    Said both sides.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    I think immigration from outside the EU was a part of the debate that preceeded the vote. I picked "afghani" not with a specific thought in mind, but because it was the first "very foreign" nationality that came to mind. I could have picked other nationalities that tend to be viewed very differently depending what people of vastly different socioeconomic backgrounds you ask.
    I know it was. And it was as irrelevant then as it is irrelevant now. It will continue to be irrelevant after Brexit, as no EU mechanics UK will wave bye bye will affect it. It was nothing more than an "alternative fact" smokescreen by the populist right to make totally not bigoted people without a clue dance to their tune, just like "350 million for the NHS".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    how can they afford it????
    .
    by working ? no i mean here is this thing called work heared of it ? if you feel that your wage is not ok then what are you doin to change that ? like i honestly openly ask and request politely answear - what do you do to change that state ?

    do you take evening courses ?
    do you take courses through internet to widen your skills (webinars)
    do you ask your boss to send you to some seminars to widen your knowledge in field you work
    do you learn foregin languages ?
    do you learn programming or some othter stull dunno grpahic design etc in the evenings ?
    do you think about changing your carrier and research what steps are nessesary for it ? (checking out univerisites , blue collar practical courses etc etc)
    do you actively look for better job ? (internet offers , profile on goldenline or ismiliar site etc etc )

    i would really really want to hear what active steps do you take to change your situation besides blaming it on foreginers who are simply better more efficient workers then you if they can manage to buy those houses while you cannot while usually havin more then 1 kid which you dont have even 1 .

    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    Rent is too expensive £900 + and we need a combined income of £80,000 a year to get a mortgage to buy a simple house..
    then dont buy a house if you cant afford it - buy your own small apartment and start there , make savings and then in 10-15 years buy a house - if you do quick count of how much you would save on not renting apartment only having your own (1-2 rooms + kitchen ) over past 15 years it would make taking a loan much easier and after buying house you could insta sell apartment and put that money into house morgage.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-02-08 at 12:19 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    by working ? no i mean here is this thing called work heared of it ? if you feel that your wage is not ok then what are you doin to change that ? like i honestly openly ask and request politely answear - what do you do to change that state ?

    do you take evening courses ?
    do you take courses through internet to widen your skills (webinars)
    do you ask your boss to send you to some seminars to widen your knowledge in field you work
    do you learn foregin languages ?
    do you learn programming or some othter stull dunno grpahic design etc in the evenings ?
    do you think about changing your carrier and research what steps are nessesary for it ? (checking out univerisites , blue collar practical courses etc etc)
    do you actively look for better job ? (internet offers , profile on goldenline or ismiliar site etc etc )

    i would really really want to hear what active steps do you take to change your situation besides blaming it on foreginers who are simply better more efficient workers then you if they can manage to buy those houses while you cannot while usually havin more then 1 kid which you dont have even 1 .

    then dont buy a house if you cant afford it - buy your own small apartment and start there , make savings and then in 10-15 years buy a house - if you do quick count of how much you would save on not renting apartment only having your own (1-2 rooms + kitchen ) over past 15 years it would make taking a loan much easier and after buying house you could insta sell apartment and put that money into house morgage.
    As polite as you are attempting to be you can't be more ill-informed, are you even aware of the current state of affairs regarding house prices in England?

    First off, my wage isn’t the issue here I earn above the UK average.

    Second, banks aren’t willing to lend more then 3.5 – 4 times your salary. Even a one bed small apartment is not an option in London/Greater London. You do the maths.

    Third, The houses/apartments/flats are not being bought by poor foreigners they are being given to them via social housing they only have to pay a small amount in rent, and I’m not just blaming them, the system is flawed all over. Even couples with kids from England working in minimum wage jobs get social housing.

    Forth, The UK is short on housing and any houses that pop up are being bought by investors to be rented at stupid prices or used as social housing. This makes the supply of places on the market very small which is why the prices are so high. The lucky few that can afford it have done so through either rich parents or a relative dying.

    Seriously go do some reading you will find my generation is quite fucked unless something is urgently done.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    Forth, The UK is short on housing and any houses that pop up are being bought by investors to be rented at stupid prices or used as social housing. This makes the supply of places on the market very small which is why the prices are so high. The lucky few that can afford it have done so through either rich parents or a relative dying.

    Seriously go do some reading you will find my generation is quite fucked unless something is urgently done.
    this is nothing new - same thing is happening in my country although my point of view may be skewed becausei live in big city -- do you know how i payed big chunk of my apartment loan ? i bought 2 room apartment and rented one of rooms to 2 students - sure its wasnt perfect situation but when i was in my 20ties / early 30ties i diditn mind the company and their rent was paying for 1,5 month rate of loan. sure it would be more prefect to live alone back then but sometimes it better to face reality - and my reality was although i techincally could afford it i found better solution that let me save money and pay ou loan faster - now that i have much better job i dont have to make sheneningans like this anymore but those few years helped me immensly with loan.

    still i really dont want to be a dick but you didnt answear my question what you as person do to make your living better - and no waiting for goverment to solve it is not an answear - it never was and it never will be. and sorry clearly your wage is a huge issue because i somehow find it extremlu hard to belive that
    Second, banks aren’t willing to lend more then 3.5 – 4 times your salary.
    if you are making above national average and are trying to take 20-30 years long apartment loan in steady full time work. gonna reasearch into it from curiosity because i find it really hard to belive
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-02-08 at 01:32 PM.

  11. #151
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    Seriously go do some reading you will find my generation is quite fucked unless something is urgently done.
    The financial rape of people in their twentys by the older generation is disgusting. But it's not going to change, you have to work with what you have. With that deposit/income you could buy something within a reasonable commute of London. Unless you need/choose to live on top of Big Ben why not do that? House prices long term are only going one way, at least you are on the ladder.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  12. #152
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    I don't understand why you think Brexit will help the housing market in the UK Toccs. Using "we're fed up" as a reason to vote leave is pretty silly. First and foremost the government needs to work to fix these issues. Leaving the EU really isn't going to solve the housing problem.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Release View Post
    (Also I should add and this is a problem to varying degrees in different cities but people also take issue with immigrants not fully acculturating with British society. This seems to be a problem mainly focused on people from India and Pakistan who all live together and set up shops next to each other and turn a street into mini India)
    To be fair, this would be the main problem to me if it was my country.

    If you want to immigrate, then AT THE VERY LEAST, you should accept and acculturate yourself. You don't crash on someone's couch only to start moving the furtniture around to accomodate your tastes.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this is nothing new - same thing is happening in my country although my point of view may be skewed becausei live in big city -- do you know how i payed big chunk of my apartment loan ? i bought 2 room apartment and rented one of rooms to 2 students - sure its wasnt perfect situation but when i was in my 20tis i diditn mind the company and their rent was paying for 1,5 month rate of loan. sure it would be more prefect to live alone back then but sometimes it better to face reality - and my reality was i couldnt afford it so i found solution - now that i have much better job i dont have to make sheneningans like this anymore but those few years helped me immensly with loan.

    still i really dont want to be a dick but you didnt answear my question what you as person do to make your living better - and no waiting for goverment to solve it is not an answear - it never was and it never will be. and sorry clearly your wage is a huge issue because i somehow find it extremlu hard to belive that if you are making above national average in steady full time work. gonna reasearch into it from curiosity .
    Thanks for replying in a kind way, debates are always far more interesting if kept civil.

    What you did in your country i can't do here i would need £250k +

    I do however find it funny that you find it hard to believe that someone earning above the average wage can't buy or rent affordably in London/Greater London, it just reinforces how ridiculous things have become.

    I work a full time job in Westminster, i'm teaching myself C# and Powershell scripting on the side to boost my earnings. The point is though people should be able to afford to rent and buy a property while earning the average wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The financial rape of people in their twentys by the older generation is disgusting. But it's not going to change, you have to work with what you have. With that deposit/income you could buy something within a reasonable commute of London. Unless you need/choose to live on top of Big Ben why not do that? House prices long term are only going one way, at least you are on the ladder.
    I've looked i can't seem to find anything that's within reasonable distance, i mean i could go live in a 6 bed house in the arse end of Scotland but i won't find any work. Its quite bad though, i don't know anyone my age who has managed to move out of home without a relative dying and i'm 30.

    Edit: Also allot of the cheap ones are for over 60s or auction that requires cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by madindehead View Post
    I don't understand why you think Brexit will help the housing market in the UK Toccs. Using "we're fed up" as a reason to vote leave is pretty silly. First and foremost the government needs to work to fix these issues. Leaving the EU really isn't going to solve the housing problem.
    I never said I voted leave, we actually didn’t vote as we were unsure of the possible outcomes. Brexit COULD help but only time will tell.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    Brexit COULD help but only time will tell.
    i really wonder how though - do you honestly belive emmigrants will stop coming in ? what makes you belive that ? like as if before east eu joining UE people from eastern eu couldnt come to UK and find work.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post
    Thanks for replying in a kind way, debates are always far more interesting if kept civil.

    What you did in your country i can't do here i would need £250k +

    I do however find it funny that you find it hard to believe that someone earning above the average wage can't buy or rent affordably in London/Greater London, it just reinforces how ridiculous things have become..
    I live in the arse end of nowhere in Norfolk and to buy a 3 bed ex council house would cost 4.5 times my salary and nearly 7 times the national average salary of £26,500. Its a joke and If you are not lucky enough to get inheritance/help from parents you are fucked and stuck in the world of super high rents

    Apparently we are so much better off these days. There used to be a time when the wages of a low-skilled worker would buy you a house and the missus could stay at home looking after the kids. The only way we are better off now is we can buy loads of cheap tat like TVs, settees, washing machines for half the price but they need replacing 3 or 4 times as quickly anyway. Even this is only possible because of the abundance of cheap credit.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Toccs View Post

    What you did in your country i can't do here i would need £250k +
    £250k / 20 years = 12,5k /12 months = +/-£1k per month (ye ye ofc bank interests and stuff but still i doubt it will be more then 1,2-1,3k monthly

    national average for 2016/17 is £28k (unless google lies) /12 months = 2,3k per month (and you claim to make above average + after few years of work you simply must have some savings ) , + you claim to have partner so even this makes around 3,5k monthly even is he/she has shitty job for both of you

    and you claim to not be able to afford apartment loan ? like for real ? unless im missing something really obvious .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-02-08 at 02:16 PM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    £250k / 20 years = 12,5k /12 months = +/-£1k per month (ye ye ofc bank interests and stuff but still i doubt it will be more then 1,2-1,3k monthly

    national average for 2016/17 is £28k (unless google lies) /12 months = 2,3k per month (and you claim to make above average + after few years of work you simply must have some savings ) , + you claim to have partner so even this makes around 3,5k monthly even is he/she has shitty job for both of you

    and you claim to not be able to afford apartment loan ? like for real ? unless im missing something really obvious .
    You are almost there, so £28,000 PA will bring you around £1800 after tax per month. You will have to minus things like, food, council tax, travel costs, electric, gas, water plus the rent.

    That doesn’t leave you much to save by the end of it.

    But for arguments sake lets say you have 0 outgoings the lenders see two wages of 28,000, the banks will lend you around £140,000ish with a clean credit rating, if you look online you will find you can get next to nothing with that.

    Edit: The funny thing is most of us can afford a bigger mortgage but the banks are not willing to lend it so we are stuck with 3.4 - 4 times the wage = mortgage.

    The ones who can afford it buy them all up quickly and stick them on the market to rent for £1000 - £4000+ per month, some simply buy them and let them sit empty generating more income. In 2014 a survey conducted by martinco found that 2 million of our landlords are foreign investors, god only knows what that number is now. If Brexit forces some of these landlords to sell up then it MIGHT help the housing market and make it more affordable for people actually living here. Like i said time will tell though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyreg View Post
    I live in the arse end of nowhere in Norfolk and to buy a 3 bed ex council house would cost 4.5 times my salary and nearly 7 times the national average salary of £26,500. Its a joke and If you are not lucky enough to get inheritance/help from parents you are fucked and stuck in the world of super high rents

    Apparently we are so much better off these days. There used to be a time when the wages of a low-skilled worker would buy you a house and the missus could stay at home looking after the kids. The only way we are better off now is we can buy loads of cheap tat like TVs, settees, washing machines for half the price but they need replacing 3 or 4 times as quickly anyway. Even this is only possible because of the abundance of cheap credit.
    This guy gets it!
    Last edited by Toccs; 2017-02-08 at 02:46 PM.

  19. #159
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyreg View Post
    I live in the arse end of nowhere in Norfolk and to buy a 3 bed ex council house would cost 4.5 times my salary and nearly 7 times the national average salary of £26,500. Its a joke and If you are not lucky enough to get inheritance/help from parents you are fucked and stuck in the world of super high rents

    Apparently we are so much better off these days. There used to be a time when the wages of a low-skilled worker would buy you a house and the missus could stay at home looking after the kids. The only way we are better off now is we can buy loads of cheap tat like TVs, settees, washing machines for half the price but they need replacing 3 or 4 times as quickly anyway. Even this is only possible because of the abundance of cheap credit.
    I can understand the problems in the South East, but Norfolk? Houses are almost buy 1 get 1 free there.

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...ludeSSTC=false

    Plenty for 4.5 x national salary plus small deposit.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  20. #160
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    Not being funny but "graduates" mean nothing in the UK, because the value of a degree has diminished so much that any one with even D grade A levels is capable of going to University.

    Most of them are out of work afterwords or doing jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with their stupidly expensive degree in business studies or economics.

    The graduates I work with make dumb mistakes because they think they know everything and in fact one of the biggest problems we face in the UK is a lack of skilled workers, not smart arse uni graduates.

    One of the best decisions I ever made was not going to university and doing a diploma on the job. Most of the smartest and highest earning people in my sector do not have PHD's, some barely went to college.

    I.E your graph is a load of shit, just like the BBC.

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