Who is it doing the actual complaining?

[Deleted]

Ok so from my experience Legion is by far the best expansion when it comes to PvP, the prestige system makes it so we damn near always got something to work towards even when fully geared just to mention one thing.

But lets get more in depth into what is working.

- Balanced ilvl compared to all other seasons (Skill > Gear) (even with artifact level differences, which u can easily get now with compendiums)
- Accesabile
- Prestige (always something to work towards)
- Balanced class's (Here im not talking about every class is equal, but im talking about every class has the potential to reach r1, and this is coming from a guy who played DH through season 1)
- World PvP (in form of WQ's, since normal form of world pvp is dead, blizzard would never get you to go back from your queuing system, so this is a awesome work around and actually gets you out into the world)

Ontop of this there is alot more like in 7.2 we get fun mode BG's, and we recently got a PvP faction (gank faction)

So when filling the above question please take theese things into account.

Oh yea and as a final note and full disclosure i have pvp'ed since Season 1 even did some in late vanilla, so i am what you would call a seasoned veteran with about 2.7k exp in arena.

[FelPlague]

A lot of people all for different reasons. But bassicly the same reasons people complain every patch


This patch PvP is too hard to get geared in. In others it was fine
This patch PvP is so broken its unplayable me. In others it was perfectly balanced
This patch my class is doing the worst. In others we were fine
In this patch gear makes you way too strong. In old patches everyone was fair


Etc etc. Idk. When I want to PvP I play dots or overwatch. Etc. But again

People are more likely to stop and tell the waiter their food is shit. Then to stop the waiter and tell the waiter the food is amazing.

[Immitis]

this is the first expansion ever where i pvp everyday because of ap and the unicorn mounts.

its pretty fun. i only play one character though and i dont pvp all the time just once or twice a day to get my daily ap tokens

[Deleted]

A lot of people all for different reasons. But bassicly the same reasons people complain every patch


This patch PvP is too hard to get geared in. In others it was fine
This patch PvP is so broken its unplayable me. In others it was perfectly balanced
This patch my class is doing the worst. In others we were fine
In this patch gear makes you way too strong. In old patches everyone was fair


Etc etc. Idk. When I want to PvP I play dots or overwatch. Etc. But again

People are more likely to stop and tell the waiter their food is shit. Then to stop the waiter and tell the waiter the food is amazing.

Ok im sorry but im gonna have to call BS

This patch PvP is too hard to get geared in. In others it was fine
You got multiple choices here, if you choose to gear through pvp you can get 835+ gear from unranked bgs 1 item per win and can proc up toward 880.
If you do ranked which isn't much of an issue since you got the templates you get gear drops once in a while but you have your weekly rewards with high ilvl depending on your rating ofc.

Even then, there is still the PvE method.

The reason i know this is because i recently leveled my SP to 110, i hit max level this tuesday, and im already 35 artifact level and 853 ilvl which is more than enough to play competently.

This patch PvP is so broken its unplayable me. In others it was perfectly balanced
This patch my class is doing the worst. In others we were fine

Again your class has the potential to reach r1, if you excuse my crude methods "git gud"

You currently have two viable specs which is affliction and destruction, and they arent just viable they are extremely good. I normally play with a destro on my DH which is currently sitting at 2.4k


I realise this might not be your point of view and your just making a point, but it is very disheartening to listen to the constant complaining.
And if i happen to change one persons attitude i feel like i did my job.

[FelPlague]

Ok im sorry but im gonna have to call BS

This patch PvP is too hard to get geared in. In others it was fine
You got multiple choices here, if you choose to gear through pvp you can get 835+ gear from unranked bgs 1 item per win and can proc up toward 880.
If you do ranked which isn't much of an issue since you got the templates you get gear drops once in a while but you have your weekly rewards with high ilvl depending on your rating ofc.

Even then, there is still the PvE method.

The reason i know this is because i recently leveled my SP to 110, i hit max level this tuesday, and im already 35 artifact level and 853 ilvl which is more than enough to play competently.

This patch PvP is so broken its unplayable me. In others it was perfectly balanced
This patch my class is doing the worst. In others we were fine

Again your class has the potential to reach r1, if you excuse my crude methods "git gud"

You currently have two viable specs which is affliction and destruction, and they arent just viable they are extremely good. I normally play with a destro on my DH which is currently sitting at 2.4k


I realise this might not be your point of view and your just making a point, but it is very disheartening to listen to the constant complaining.
And if i happen to change one persons attitude i feel like i did my job.

I guess my post was lost on you... I was saying. Everyone is complaining. And those are their complaints... I don't care about PvP. Those arnt my complaints. I thought I sorta made that clear

- - - Updated - - -

Also your pole is bad... Where is "eh its OK" because I don't think its the best season. But I don't hate it

[Immitis]

also, everytime a battleground starts i post smash mouth lyrics. its good for morale

[FeralNonBeliever]

feels like the devs are trying a lot harder than previous patches, but there are still comps that are completely burst and end the game in sub 1 minute.

[Dismembered]

Ok im sorry but im gonna have to call BS

This patch PvP is too hard to get geared in. In others it was fine
You got multiple choices here, if you choose to gear through pvp you can get 835+ gear from unranked bgs 1 item per win and can proc up toward 880.

I even got an 890 item from a random BG.

[Deleted]

I guess my post was lost on you... I was saying. Everyone is complaining. And those are their complaints... I don't care about PvP. Those arnt my complaints. I thought I sorta made that clear

- - - Updated - - -

Also your pole is bad... Where is "eh its OK" because I don't think its the best season. But I don't hate it

Read the end of my post

[FelPlague]

Read the end of my post

Ahh OK. I read like three sentences and didn't wanna read the rest as I knew it didn't line up to me. But yeah I was just saying that. Literally all the community is saying it. I see it in tons of forms on here. And it is for every reason. And has been happening every season

[inboundpaper]

also, everytime a battleground starts i post smash mouth lyrics. its good for morale

I do the same thing with Evanescence when we're losing.

[FelPlague]

I do the same thing with Evanescence when we're losing.

I link big smokes order ever time I do bgs when I need them for stuff

[Seneca]

To avoid a wall of text I'll simply summarize the reasons without explaining them, we all can find the explanations in basically every other topic in this same subforum. Some reasons are more trivial for me than others. Haven't played for months, my knowledge might be obsolete.

(In no particular order)

1) Stat gap. Honor set in 1 week or less vs AK, AP for each class and spec of the same class, Honor Talents, IL and their rng fest.

2) Balance.

3) Skill ceiling and floor too wide. It is enormous. (League of Legends devs balance the game keeping in mind even this aspect and some changes are made just to fix this issue, for example).

4) Pruning.

5) Non new PvP things. New bgs, maps, events, skins, tournaments, esports, dedicated patches, zones, rewards. PvP is simply an afterthought it seems.

6) Lack of comunication. In League of Legends devs keep writing essays about everything that I can't keep up with even if I would have the whole day free, I swear. In WoW you don't even know what are the template stats of your spec.......

7) Lack of clear fantasy and 8) gameplay.

For example, in the past disci priests were the best at: shielding, dispeling, doing damage. You had a clear role. Now it simply plays like every other healer. Now every healer is basically the same. Also, it is all a mess role wise. Holy paladins are the one with the highest dmg output 0o, resto druids are the tankiest (in bear) 0o, monks have the best heals over time 0o.

Another example, mages were the kings of ccs (and AoE damage for the matter). Now it is the only class without any hard cc (stun like) 0o.
Shamans were not known for having extremely powerful ccs. Now they have an AoE, ranged, Stun. 0o The best cc in the game one could hope to have lol (not necessarily reliable in PvP by all means, differently from PvE, talking about their stun).


Back in the past there were clearly defined gameplay. This point got too long. Let's move on.

9) Templates.

I miss stacking resilience because my spec is made of shit. I miss stacking mana regen because my comp is about rotting. I miss stacking haste because otherwise I can't get 1 cast off. I miss customizing my character.

10) Honor talents. 9 out of 10 are useless, unbalanced, uninteresting or spells that specs already had back in the past.

I am not necessarily against the concept of honor talents, I am against the philosophy of (hey, let's randomly throw a few darts at the wall, the ones which stick will be honor talents, this will definetely make so this mechanic (honor talents) will have a reason to exist).

There are other issues like honor talents randomly activating in world pvp, being things pvp exclusive, having to be balanced separately (so double work), etc.

11) PvE stuff giving PvP rewards or being displayed as if it is pvp (for example, Tower WQ giving honor points by killing undead npc 0o). It's not something which bothers me particularly, but it feels so strange and the contrary is not true anyway. Hopefully the amount is low enough to not force players who want to prestige to keep killing npcs...

12) Materialism 13) Utilitarism, 14) Standardization, 15) Stagnation 16) Artificiality (for lack of better words). I know, this is getting philosophic. Anyway, these points would need a whole book and concern the whole game. In a sense, most of them are linked. To keep it very short:

"Materialism": the fact that everything is about numbers (almost all talents are about numbers, so the ones numerically superior are taken // item drops are rng (<- random number generator) heavy rather than about achieving something in particular or in a certain way // an item with 900 IL is better than an item with 899 because stats in PvP are about the IL).

"Utilitarism": lfg, lfr, bg spam rather than world pvp (which is 100% dead). It is all about power rewards and doing things as soon as possible. Random bgs give loot, world pvp does not, so people who wants to boost their stats are forced to do bgs, for example. It's all about max level and doing it asap. I can't even clear some zones and finish their questlines because I hugely outlevel them, so it's about 0 narrative and rpg aspects. It's about powerleveling. It's not about the journey anymore (vanilla lovers, I summon you to explain this point ).

"Standardization": as opposite to customization, same weapon (artifact one), same stats (in PvP stats are predetermined), same talents, templates which force you to take certain paths and playstyle (if a template reduces your crit chance/damage to 50%, you are not going to take talents which are about crit, for example).

"Stagnation": nothing new, same specs/class in certain or all ratings (because they are broken), but it also about same maps, same gamemodes. Look at pve and what it offers to better understand this point.

"Artificiality": honor talents being pvp exclusive and popping off all of a sudden when you hit another player in world pvp, many abilities/spells which do not fit the game or the spec/class (frost dks have a honor talent which is basically a ball which keeps bouncing between target 0o).



Now, the one milion dollar question(s): What's similar and what's different from the past?

Similar:
- Balance (it depends on the season surely, some were probably worse or as worse as the most recent, some way better. The fact that there were way less specs in the past surely helped (down to 27, compared to the 36 of today);
- Skill Ceiling and Floor (always too wide probably, even in the past)
- Lack of Comunication (blizz devs have always been silent, even though I must say that now they reached new heights when you don't even know how your spec fully works in PvP).

Different:
- Stat Gap (It was way, way better and easier, I think this is not arguable);
- Pruning
- No new PvP stuff (Tbc was a revolution, infrastructure wise, even just remembering the introdution of arena is enough to understand the magnitude of PvP changes and implications; Wrath was a revolution, community wise, esports wise, out of the game guides/videos/topics wise, also introduced 1 bg, 2 arenas, 1 enormous world bg (Wintergrasp)).
- Lack of clear Fantasy and clear Gameplay (this point is quite clear and obvious I hope);
- Templates;
- Honor Talents;
- PvE Stuff giving PvP rewards and not viceversa anyway (if I remember well);
- Materialism, Utilitarism, Standardization, Stagnation, Artificiality (in different degrees and shapes, surely).


The end, sorry for english, it turned to be a wall of text in the end, well rip.

[Livevil]

Probably the worst expansion, overall, when it comes to pvp

* The grind to get into pvp has never been bigger(full talents/30+ traits vs honor set)
* The above makes alts almost inaccessible
* Zero content
* Class balance/design is completely dogshit. When pve has complains about class balance, just imagine how bad it is in pvp
* One of the shittiest structures when it comes to gear rewards

Forgot to add that legion s1 barely surpassed the worst season of wod in terms of arena representation. To put this in perspective, starting seasons always have very high representation due to the influx of subs/game hype etc. The worst season of wod happened when the game had lost almost 50% of the subscriber base.

[SirreASDF]

I think it has its up and downs. Is it the best yet? Doubt it. Is it the worst yet? Doubt it.

These are my main issues with the pvp system of today:

-No customization. Having 8 or so gem slots in the pvp gear would help here.. Do you want to go heavy on mastery? Do it! Do you want to go heavy on haste? Fine!

-The melee trains in 3v3 are unreal. Can it be countered? Of course, but it's still pretty boring to face two melees (a mix of what, 4-5 specs?) every... single... game...

-The amount of time to get a character ready for PvP. It used to be soo much faster, especially if you started late in the season.. Just get a decent friend for 2s and you'll have most of your top tier pvp gear in a few hours.. (This is both a good and a bad thing though..)

-PvE gear is equal to PvP gear in PvP, but PvP gear is mostly crap for PvE since it has versatility in 99% of the cases..

-World PvP has never been worse..



I'll do a quick list of things I like about Legion PvP:
-WPvP WQs, although the non-templated WPvP is shit, the idea was still nice..
-Prestige System, always something to work towards, the name is a bit missleading though. It fit better for the original implementation though. (Which was horrible in itself)
-Class Balance, as op says, is pretty good. But as I stated above, bit tired to face soo many melee cleaves who just tunnel something. It's usually a win as long as you handle your cooldowns correctly, but it's still annoying. All the games becomes somewhat similar (as a ranged dps who usually gets targeted in 3s).

What irks me the most to be honest, is that people who PvE has it so much easier to get gear for PvP, where as if you're in a full gear set from PvP you'd have really shitty stats for PvE. Unless you play something that needs a shit ton of Versatility.. In that case you'd just have shitty trinkets and no set bonuses.

Overall though, I still enjoy Legion PvP. It's not perfect, and I wouldn't call it the best yet, but it's not as horrible as some make it out to be.

[Hashtronaut]

Didn't vote because your poll is skewing.

I am an 1800+ player that doesn't think it's the best season or iteration of PvP, but I definitely don't hate it.

Oh and anyone complaining about melee cleaves...have you played against fire/assass/rdruid?

[Accendor]

- Balanced ilvl compared to all other seasons (Skill > Gear) (even with artifact level differences, which u can easily get now with compendiums)

I am just a casual PVP player and I am also not very good at it (strongly prefer PVE). I actually stopped PVP altogether because of this change, because I could not compensate my lack of skill with equipment anymore and I lost all feeling of character progression in addition to that.
I know that for a lot of people this change was the best that ever happened, but for me it certainly was the the reason to stop.

This is no complain by the way, I do not want to enforce to change this to something else, I am just telling why I stopped. I think the loss of character progression is actually a problem for many casual players like me.

[Morgaith]

Pvp would be good this expansion if it wasn't for the dogshit class balance.

[Trematode]

Pvp would be good this expansion if it wasn't for the dogshit class balance.

Like what he said in his first post, Most of the classes in this game are r1 viable with multiple comps. You can play different comps today and still be able to do good. (Besides the Rogue/Mage comps). I don't understand why people say class balance is dogshit when we see constant pvp hotfixes.

Are people used to being OP'ed faceroll in BG's so they can say we are balanced?

[RelaZ]

Like what he said in his first post, Most of the classes in this game are r1 viable with multiple comps. You can play different comps today and still be able to do good. (Besides the Rogue/Mage comps). I don't understand why people say class balance is dogshit when we see constant pvp hotfixes.

Are people used to being OP'ed faceroll in BG's so they can say we are balanced?

2/3 of the matches under 2k contains at least one meleecleave and 2/3 of the comps at 2k+ are RMx'es. All the other things aside, the game is clearly not balanced.