The hypocrisy of abortion not '' being murder ''

[Machismo]

No, the eventual outcome could be a baby if the female wants this to be. That is the important part you keep "forgetting".

It doesn't matter what happens if you do nothing, it is really irrelevant. What matters is what can be done.

It absolutely matters. Does the man understand that the eventual outcome of it is a baby? Does he do it, anyways?

That's why I recommend getting a contract signed ahead of time, to cover one's ass. If you want to whine and say that contracts can't be done, then I will fight along side you to get the contracts done. However, I will not support you in your cause to unilaterally absolve a person of the consequences of his actions. Otherwise, the exact same argument could be made for a drunk driver who killed a pedestrian.

If two people set the timer to a bomb that will blow up a city, but only one has a deactivation code. Are they both still responsible for setting the bomb when it goes off? of course they are.

[Deleted]

It absolutely matters. Does the man understand that the eventual outcome of it is a baby? Does he do it, anyways?

That's why I recommend getting a contract signed ahead of time, to cover one's ass. If you want to whine and say that contracts can't be done, then I will fight along side you to get the contracts done. However, I will not support you in your cause to unilaterally absolve a person of the consequences of his actions. Otherwise, the exact same argument could be made for a drunk driver who killed a pedestrian.

If two people set the timer to a bomb that will blow up a city, but only one has a deactivation code. Are they both still responsible for setting the bomb when it goes off? of course they are.

It doesn't matter because it isn't up to him in any way, and the other thing is, why do you insist to hold males to a different standard as females?

And we are back to the character assassination, but yes, it would be nice to have at least something to be able to do that, but there is none.

This isn't about "unilaterally absolve males of their actions", but rather to hold females responsible to their actions, because, as i have explained numerous times, having a child is 100% a choice that the female made.

I'm not talking about when you are in a relationship and you plan to have children and things doesnt work out, of course males will have to do their fair share. This whole thing is about when pregnancies occur on accident, it is then that the male has nothing to say about his future, that is what this is about.

[Machismo]

It doesn't matter because it isn't up to him in any way, and the other thing is, why do you insist to hold males to a different standard as females?

And we are back to the character assassination, it would be nice to have at least something to be able to do that, but there is none.

This isn't about "unilaterally absolve males of their actions", but rather to hold females responsible to their actions, because, as i have explained numerous times, having a child is 100% a choice that the female made.

I'm not talking about when you are in a relationship and you plan to have children and things doesnt work out, of course males will have to do their fair share. This whole thing is about when pregnancies occur on accident, it is then that the male has nothing to say about his future, that is what this is about.

Having sex is certainly up to the man. Risking pregnancy is certainly up to the man. It's also up to the woman.

I have no problem holding females accountable for their actions. I also have no problem holding males accountable for their actions. If a female does not get an abortion, then no action was taken. She is still being held responsible for the action she did take, which was to have sex. The male should also be held responsible for the action he took, which was to have sex. If having a baby was 100% a choice of a female, then a female could get pregnant with no sperm.

[Mehrunes]

Ignorance is not an excuse, which means there is no denying responsibility by risking pregnancy when having sex. Like you said, ignorance is not an excuse, and the man has a responsibility for the consequences of his actions. The result of his action, was a fetus. Barring any further actions, that baby is inevitable.

Because I totally didn't talk about the woman from your example. Who even mentioned the man being ignorant? It wasn't part of your original point. And way to ignore the other part.

If two people set the timer to a bomb that will blow up a city, but only one has a deactivation code. They are both still responsible for setting the bomb when it goes off? of course they are.

This isn't 100% equivalent comparison. An abortion is a legal right and given its availability, not using it has specific consequences. On the other hand, just having the codes doesn't mean you have any feasible opportunity to use them. Besides, depending on the circumstances, the person with the codes can very well be punished more harshly, which indicates different amount of responsibility.

[Raelbo]

1. I do not have to explain what something is, you can google that your self. You not understanding something is not the same as me committing a fallacy.

I asked you to explain what YOU understand by it. I cannot google that because nothing you have used that phrase for matches the google definition. But yes GG on dodging... again.

What it means?? Are you really that dumb??

I love comments like these coming from someone who has said what you have said in this thread

Yes you did, when you argue that people should not have sex if they are not willing to become a parent then you are arguing that sex=parenthood. Really man, i can not help that you are this dumb, please fix that.

Can you really not see the difference?

Here it is (and both Machismo and I have said stuff to this effect numerous times). Sex does not guarantee parenthood. But parenthood is a risk of sex. If you're unwilling to accept that risk then either don't have sex or find a partner who will have an abortion or who is willing to waive their right to expect you to pay.

That is absolutely NOT the same thing as saying sex=parenthood. Thus you presenting it as such is a strawman. I didn't call dumb for not being able to understand this. Maybe I should have.

That sentence is me explaining why it is anti abortion rhetoric, and you agreeing with it makes it clear that you just do not understand what it is you are doing.

No actually it was you trying to illustrate what it was by using an example. Not the same thing. In fact you're godawful at explaining.
Also, for the record, my argument isn't against abortion. Ergo it cannot, by definition, be anti-abortion rhetoric. At best you could argue that my comments are similar to AAR, but even then you need to justify the similarity instead of just saying it is. Because that IS strawmanning.

Sigh, you really do not understand what a fallacy is, better you not take that word in your mouth..

Again, rich given your commentry to date.

Something that is true doesn't make it a fallacy, it is true that woman do not have to accept parenthood.

True

no woman do not take responsibility when it happens accidentally, yes some might, others wont. Doing nothing is not the same as taking responsibility, just like not taking action is a decision.

False.

Ok, you don't like the phrase "take responsibility". So I'll phrase it another way to be clear (because really, you're just playing with semantics here). Women are stuck with consequences (some might argue that this is the same as having a responsibility forced upon them, but like I say, I don't care to argue semantics so let's cut to the chase). They can't just snap their fingers and the problem magically disappears (in the way that a man can by simply disappearing).

Failing to do anything results in a baby being born. That is a massive consequence
Having an abortion is a consequence (maybe not in your mind, but that is irrelevant)

My issue with you is that you do not know how to use words properly. The only double standard here is the ones you keep applying.

Right back at you. The irony here is that probably your only skill is trying to be clever with words. It must really be frustrating when someone who is better at it than you, who also is able to construct a cogent argument, calls you on your BS

You being stupid is not something that is my fault. It isn't a catch phrase, i did not invent it. Go and educate your self before commenting next time.

Look buddy, I have resisted typing my mind and simply calling you a narcissistic retard up until this point so the least you can do is reciprocate and debate my argument. Sadly for you this is something you've avoided.

You asked me yesterday for a list of your fallacies used. I had a bit of time to think on it:
1) Strawman (multiple times)
2) False equivalence (very prevalent)
3) Hyperbole
4) Basic logic fallacies (eg you argued that because a woman has the power to abort, she is the only one who has any power to prevent the birth of a child, while it's patently obvious that a father can prevent birth by not ejaculating inside her).
5) You've misapplied Argument of Authority (by failing to understand that it is only a fallacy if the authority in question can be demonstrated to not be an actual authority)
6) The biggest fallacy though is that you're trying to construct an argument to fit your narrative, instead of adopting a narrative that fits all the facts.

Maybe you should use google????

Like I already said, my problem is not that I don't understand the meaning of the term. It's that I don't know what you understand by it. Your refusal to explain your interpretation is something I'll take as evidence that you don't have a cooking clue what it means and you were counting on your opponent not knowing either, so you just used it thinking it would make you look smart. Sorry, but I called your bluff.

Again, just because you are incapable of understanding something doesn't make me wrong.

Here's a quick thought for you. You tell me to "get an education". And yet one of the biggest thing that getting an education entails is teaching people that the argument (ie how you get there) is more important than the conclusion. How the hell do you expect me to understand your argument when your conclusion defies the logic and reasoning I have made an effort to convey and you are unwilling/unable to provide your own thought process on how you reached your conclusion hmm?

So there am I left to guess how you came to your conclusion. Not that I actually need to be a genius to guess how, but honestly, I would far prefer you put it down, step by step so that I can either see the sense in it, or see where you were wrong, than tell you you're wrong because you're an idiot.

Truth be told, I think the reason you are so terrified of actually explaining your argument is that you don't have one. You have a conclusion. You came to that conclusion because it suits you, and you'll be damned if anyone should ever tell you otherwise. Good luck to you when you get a woman pregnant (unlike a previous poster I realise that anyone can get laid) because you're going to be in a world of pain. Sadly I doubt even then you'd learn your lesson, you'll just rant and rave about how unfair the world is and how evil women are yadda yadda yawn.

The rest of you post i wont address, as you clearly only are trying to rip me down with personal attacks.

That's your opinion. I believe I have been very restrained, certainly more so than you have. My arguments have focussed on your arguments and only after repeated requests for some insight into your actual thought process (which you refuse) have I ventured into speculating on that thought process (which you have interpreted as an attack). Of course if we read some of what you have been saying and how you outright speak down to people and now have clearly let it be known that you regard your opponents as idiots, well that says a lot.

I have for several pages entertained your points with logical argument. You have failed to do the same. You don't get to lecture me about ripping you down with personal attacks. I suspect that was actually your strategy all along: piss your opponent off until they crack and use some ad hominem. Well guess what. It didn't work.

[Machismo]

Because I totally didn't talk about the woman from your example. Who even mentioned the man being ignorant? It wasn't part of your original point. And way to ignore the other part.




This isn't 100% equivalent comparison. An abortion is a legal right and given its availability, not using it has specific consequences. On the other hand, just having the codes doesn't mean you have any feasible opportunity to use them. Besides, depending on the circumstances, the person with the codes can very well be punished more harshly, which indicates different amount of responsibility.

It's a legal right, that does not mean one is under any obligation to have one. It's also a right to not have sex, or to get a vasectomy.

I have no problem laying more punishment on the one who gets an additional decision, but that does not absolve the man of his responsibility. At best, we are arguing that he is only 1/3 responsible for the baby, instead of 1/2. Of course, that is also assuming that not taking an action is equivalent to actually taking an action. Is doing nothing the same as taking an action?

[Raelbo]

Still 30 pages of MehMeh saying "But no!" to anything cogent raised?

Business as usual.

^^ This a million times

[Deleted]

Having sex is certainly up to the man. Risking pregnancy is certainly up to the man. It's also up to the woman.

I have no problem holding females accountable for their actions. I also have no problem holding males accountable for their actions. If a female does not get an abortion, then no action was taken. She is still being held responsible for the action she did take, which was to have sex. The male should also be held responsible for the action he took, which was to have sex. If having a baby was 100% a choice of a female, then a female could get pregnant with no sperm.

Having sex isn't the same as becoming a parent. The only reason that the male is "risking" pregnancy is because he is held responsible for the choice that the females makes. That is his "risk", and the risk that a woman takes is pregnancy. Those are different "risks", the one is inevitable if you want to have sex, the other is not quite so.

First off the males, yes you risk impregnating a woman, this is inevitable. You can take all the precautions in the world and still impregnate a woman. The only thing that currently is 100% proof for males is just not having sex.

Secondly females, yes, females risk becoming pregnant, but that is not the end of the road for them. They get to decide if they want to have this child or not. I'm not saying that they should not be able to do this, this is their body so their decision.

That brings me to the second part.. I did not say you had a problem with holding females accountable for their actions, what i said was that you did not hold them to the same standards. If you say that males should just not have sex if they want to become a parent then you are basically saying that there is no need for abortions, because, if a girl doesn't want to become pregnant then she just should not have sex.

It doesn't matter if "actions are taken" what matters is what "decisions are made".

- - - Updated - - -

Angry rambling.

/giggle 10char

[Raelbo]

An abortion is a legal right and given its availability, not using it has specific consequences.

True. But what you consistently fail to acknowledge is the consequences of using it.

You also fail to acknowledge that just as all women have the right an abortion, so too should they have the right to not feel forced into an abortion.


Yes, yes I KNOW. YOU don't believe abortion is a big deal. It's like getting a mole removed. And you are fully entitled to hold that opinion...when it comes to your spawn. But you are not allowed to project that value onto the rest of society any more than society is allowed to project their values onto you. And no that does not mean you should be exempt from financial responsibility for your children. It just means you are not obliged to be happy about it.

[Machismo]

Having sex isn't the same as becoming a parent. The only reason that the male is "risking" pregnancy is because he is held responsible for the choice that the females makes. That is his "risk", and the risk that a woman takes is pregnancy. Those are different "risks", the one is inevitable if you want to have sex, the other is not quite so.

First off the males, yes you risk impregnating a woman, this is inevitable. You can take all the precautions in the world and still impregnate a woman. The only thing that currently is 100% proof for males is just not having sex.

Secondly females, yes, females risk becoming pregnant, but that is not the end of the road for them. They get to decide if they want to have this child or not. I'm not saying that they should not be able to do this, this is their body so their decision.

That brings me to the second part.. I did not say you had a problem with holding females accountable for their actions, what i said was that you did not hold them to the same standards. If you say that males should just not have sex if they want to become a parent then you are basically saying that there is no need for abortions, because, if a girl doesn't want to become pregnant then she just should not have sex.

It doesn't matter if "actions are taken" what matters is what "decisions are made".

Actions are very important, we've been talking about holding people responsible for their actions. After all, you said:

"This isn't about "unilaterally absolve males of their actions", but rather to hold females responsible to their actions, because, as i have explained numerous times, having a child is 100% a choice that the female made. "

I'm using your words.

If a woman does not get an abortion, what action is taken by her? If we are going to base it off of a mental decision, then should we be responsible for every dream and thought we have? What action was taken? None.

In the end, if a woman does not get an abortion, then only two actions were taken... one by a woman, and one by a man.

If it only matters what decisions were made, then the man decided to risk pregnancy, as well as a child. He willingly made that decision.

[Raelbo]

/giggle 10char

/slow clap.

Such a mature, grown up response Like AeneasDK said: "Still 30 pages of MehMeh saying "But no!" to anything cogent raised?"

[Miow]

That's poisoning.
Which is illegal. And you can't justify it with "what about when men wants to have the baby, but the mother aborts it."
It's still her body. Not his. Does it seem correct to go "I want to have that baby! You've to go through 9 months of pregnacy wether you want to or not! You HAVE to! Because I WANT it! YOU have to deal with the pain and all the consequences, because I want it!" Want to be a baby dad so badly.. Adopt.


Want to be incontrol of the pregnacy? Too bad, you lost that possibility being born a male.

[Raelbo]

Having sex isn't the same as becoming a parent.

Lol. Both of us have said REPEATEDLY that we're not saying it is. Nor did we actually argue that it is. Yet you insist on trying to put those words into our mouths!

The only reason that the male is "risking" pregnancy is because he is held responsible for the choice that the females makes.

Ridiculous! Preposterous even!

First off the males, yes you risk impregnating a woman, this is inevitable. You can take all the precautions in the world and still impregnate a woman. The only thing that currently is 100% proof for males is just not having sex.

True. But that doesn't mean we should just avoid having sex any more than we should avoid driving, or doing sport, or eating shellfish, or anything else that can have an undesirable consequence.

Man up, assess the risk, and take responsibility when things don't go according to plan. Or accept life as a virgin.

Secondly females, yes, females risk becoming pregnant, but that is not the end of the road for them. They get to decide if they want to have this child or not. I'm not saying that they should not be able to do this, this is their body so their decision.

Yes, but you are placing the entire burden of responsibility/consequence on them for an event (unwanted pregnancy) which is 50% the man's fault.

That brings me to the second part.. I did not say you had a problem with holding females accountable for their actions, what i said was that you did not hold them to the same standards. If you say that males should just not have sex if they want to become a parent then you are basically saying that there is no need for abortions, because, if a girl doesn't want to become pregnant then she just should not have sex.

Dude it pretty clear you're misrepresenting his argument completely.

[Deleted]

Actions are very important, we've been talking about holding people responsible for their actions. After all, you said:

"This isn't about "unilaterally absolve males of their actions", but rather to hold females responsible to their actions, because, as i have explained numerous times, having a child is 100% a choice that the female made. "

I'm using your words.

If a woman does not get an abortion, what action is taken by her? If we are going to base it off of a mental decision, then should we be responsible for every dream and thought we have? What action was taken? None.

In the end, if a woman does not get an abortion, then only two actions were taken... one by a woman, and one by a man.

Do i really need to explain how actions are the result of decisions made? -.- And do i really need to point out that inaction doesn't mean that no decision is taken??

If a woman does not get an abortion then the action of letting the pregnancy go to term was taken. What you are thinking of are dreams, not decisions, you are not held accountable for your dreams or fantasies, but you are held responsible for the decisions you make.

What it all comes down to is choice, the choice to become a parent or not. The choice of with whom you would like to start a family.

[Machismo]

Do i really need to explain how actions are the result of decisions made? -.- And do i really need to point out that inaction doesn't mean that no decision is taken??

If a woman does not get an abortion then the action of letting the pregnancy go to term was taken. What you are thinking of are dreams, not decisions, you are not held accountable for your dreams or fantasies, but you are held responsible for the decisions you make.

What it all comes down to is choice, the choice to become a parent or not. The choice of with whom you would like to start a family.

And both people chose to risk becoming parents by having sex. That is a decision they both made. Why don't you want to hold the man responsible for his decisions? Without any future decisions being made, the inevitability of that first decision is still a baby. That is a decision that both the man and woman made.

[Deleted]

And both people chose to risk becoming parents by having sex. That is a decision they both made.

That is simply not true, the male risks becoming a parent, the female risks having the choice to become parent, that is the difference.

[Raelbo]

And both people chose to risk becoming parents by having sex. That is a decision they both made. Why don't you want to hold the man responsible for his decisions? Without any future decisions being made, the inevitability of that first decision is still a baby. That is a decision that both the man and woman made.

OMG How DARE you bring logic and reason here?!? Shoo, off with you. Fallacies. FALLACIES I TELL YOU.

[Machismo]

That is simply not true, the male risks becoming a parent, the female risks having the choice to become parent, that is the difference.

Well, there is clearly a risk, or this would not be an issue.

If I have to explain pregnancy and biology to you, this is going to be a long day.

[Raelbo]

That is simply not true,

It simply is true.

the male risks becoming a parent, the female risks having the choice to become parent, that is the difference.

This doesn't disprove what Machismo said.

[Deleted]

Well, there is clearly a risk, or this would not be an issue.

If I have to explain pregnancy and biology to you, this is going to be a long day.

Did i ever say that pregnancy is without risk? Or did i say that abortion is without a risk? No i did not....

It takes nothing away from what i've said, one takes the risk to become a parent, the other takes the risk to have a choice to become a parent.