rogues are weak

[Eazy]

I think that Assassination is in the RIGHT place at long last.

ST? Awesome.
AoE? OKAY
Cleave fights? Good.
M+? OKAY

In nh outlaw outshines assasination by far.

No.

It's not even fair to call it the "right" place; assassination is downright OP (so is DH, to be fair). The ST damage you can do is insane.

With BIS legendaries. Without them, it's not that good.

I'm an absolute retard for committing to outlaw like I did.

Same.

[Xanatu]

I know this forum gets a lot of dumb threads but this is actually the worst. Bar none. If Outlaw was good, it wouldn't have 1/10th of the playerbase of assassination. I'm an absolute retard for committing to outlaw like I did. It's fucking terrible. There are no relevant AOE fights where Outlaw is better than any actual AOE class. Assassination is one of the game's premier specs. If you're too stupid to realize what an OP spec looks like, it's on you.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that Assassination is in the RIGHT place at long last.

ST? Awesome.
AoE? OKAY
Cleave fights? Good.
M+? OKAY

It's not even fair to call it the "right" place; assassination is downright OP (so is DH, to be fair). The ST damage you can do is insane.

[Wenoxar]

I believe Blizzard should add some way for controlling Poison Bomb procs. Examples (random numbers used):

- After you spend 500 energy, your next Envenom will cause Poison Bomb proc (trackable)
- After you spend 20 combo points, your next Envenom will cause Poison Bomb proc (trackable)
- Every 25 seconds your Envenom will cause Poison Bomb proc (trackable)
- Poison Bomb on-use, 25 seconds cooldown (trackable)

make the numbers equal to current proc rate, that way it wouldn't be that RNG and we could be more useful and use Poison Bomb to bump our useless AoE when it's needed.

Also, would be great if we got a new ability which would immedietely apply 5 stacks of Agonizing Poison to the target, with cooldown i.e 60 seconds. That way our target switch would be noticably better.


Would it make us OP?

As long as there are classes like dh, frost dk, ww monk, even retri paladin - no, we would not be OP

[Truelegacy]

The reason that outlaw is only 1/10th of assasination is because it is punishing to play another spec in legion if u have commited in one spec.Even if u manage to have the 54 traits on both chances are you dont have the legendaries.As for outlaw nh has many fights that it performs pretty good,like botanist spellblade and guldan.

[ymirsson]

No, but the people who they are trying get recruited by FOR the pug are.

If you are random pug leader for mythci + or a normal nuke through, you see a sin rogue and will pass him over for a demon hunter or warrior 99% of the time.

This was the same back in wrath until they added damage to Fok, btw.

Yeah, like in Wrath, it was terrible to PuG. If you are too antisocial to commit yourself to a guild (or just a regular group of raiders) you shouldn't complain about being shunned in specific circumstances.

[Deleted]

I raid at a reasonable 3 day a week mythic level (we are progressing Krosus mythic atm), my guild understands what I bring to the table, often on fights I will be one of the lowest overall but if you check actual boss damage I'm half of the next guy's damage ahead of anyone else, and that's fine. It's the role we play and as long as your guild understands the value of that you are fine.

You may look at this as a good or bad thing depending on what kind of player you are but 9 times out of 10 this results in me been told to "ignore everything and just stay on the boss" and that makes sense for us but ofc if you are a player who likes to do stuff it kinda sucks. In anycase if you are a major DPS whore who likes to actually contribute to success rather than just flagrant padding the Assassination rogue is the way to go.

Rogue's who play Outlaw on Skorp, lul...

[Deleted]

Yeah, like in Wrath, it was terrible to PuG. If you are too antisocial to commit yourself to a guild (or just a regular group of raiders) you shouldn't complain about being shunned in specific circumstances.

That's most players.

If a spec is technically fine but in actual experience gets shunned by the regular playerbase, it isn't actually fine.

[Eazy]

Rogue's who play Outlaw on Skorp, lul...

Outlaw is better than Assa, but still worse than Sub on Skorpyon.
(based on the warcraftlogs data)

It's not even fair to call it the "right" place; assassination is downright OP (so is DH, to be fair). The ST damage you can do is insane.

Why you think so?

I checked logs(scores) and Assa is on the 15th place (mythic/all bosses/75%/last week/only DPS classes)... though on the Krosus it's in the 4th.
90% - 4th, 99% - also 4th, MAX(100%) - 5th.
Havoc and Fure are ALWAYS above Assassination on the highest ranks in ST(Krosus).

[Deleted]

That random pug leader doesn't deserve my DPS, then. This is not something I've suffered. With my ilevel and achievements, I get into pugs just fine. I'll say it again, just because some gamers choose to make ignorant decisions based on class/spec doesn't mean a class is weak. It just means they're uninformed.

I'll say it again - most people who are picking out of LFG to fill their raid and mythic+ are uninformed.

You can design for the playerbase you wish you had or the one you've got. We already know what works.

[ymirsson]

That's most players.

If a spec is technically fine but in actual experience gets shunned by the regular playerbase, it isn't actually fine.

I wouldn't call the PuG experience "regular playerbase". Most people i know have in fact a regular group of players for group content and only fall back to LFG tools if needed. The ususal current random thing to happen (in my experience) is a auto accepting raid group for elite WQs, where you just need to accept the invite, noone looks at yur spec, seldomly they even watch if you contribute.

[Deleted]

Outlaw is better than Assa, but still worse than Sub on Skorpyon.
(based on the warcraftlogs data)

But you miss my point, what actually helps a guild kill Skorpyon mythic? almost everyone is spec'd AOE for max whore, even if you are in a guild that specifically assigns people to handle the AOE you are not going to be picked ahead of classes who can do that better, so how as a rogue can you most optimally help kill Skorpyon mythic? seem's to me the answer is pretty clear, you play Assassination and you reduce the overall fight length significantly for everyone else as a result.

[SSJones]

Krosus and trillax. Pure ST fights unless you fuck up the swirlies. Rogues still not topping.

Hrmmmmm?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1867

Current spots 1, 2, and 3 when looking at individual top 10 on this fight may not be rogues, but assassination rogues are, on average, the top class for Trilliax, and #4 on Krosus for mythic, at 90%. I'm sure assassination will be top 4 on Star Auger as well, when enough logs of that fight come in to matter on mythic. Assassination rogues are also #2 on all three of those fights in Heroic.

[Deleted]

I went back and read all your posts. You said something about "mythic+ leaders not knowing the score," but you never said they were uninformed, actually. What you DID say is it's a problem and that the class "isn't fine" because [uninformed] people shun the class. So essentially, you're saying because -some- pug leaders are misinformed, the Assassination Rogue class isn't fine. And that the people who largely pug content don't think Rogues are an asset to their group. Right? That's your statement?

I don't wish for a type of playerbase, even if that exists. You're forgetting that people know things based off of their perspective. It's quite apparent my perspective is different than yours. In my experience, groups WANT Assassination Rogues for high level keys and raids. Our Core 2 Mythic team has four Rogues in it (3 Sin, 1 Sub).

All I'm trying to say is, our class and spec is fine. It's more than fine. We bring utility and high boss damage with the occasional remarkable AoE DPS.

And all I am trying to say is, that our class and spec isn't fine if you pug or mostly do LFR etc - and this is most players.

The uninformed are going to look at the meter, see rogues midtable and then pass them over. Again, this is most players.

OP has a problem in that he's struggling to get things done because other DPS are better than he is in the minds of the people he needs to convince to get an invite.

We could engage in a massive ad campaign proving that rogues are ok, really, or they could just buff FOK like the last umpteen times rogues have been left on the shelf because of a lack of aoe. I know which one wll work. So do you.

[ymirsson]

And all I am trying to say is, that our class and spec isn't fine if you pug or mostly do LFR etc - and this is most players.

The uninformed are going to look at the meter, see rogues midtable and then pass them over. Again, this is most players.

OP has a problem in that he's struggling to get things done because other DPS are better than he is in the minds of the people he needs to convince to get an invite.

We could engage in a massive ad campaign proving that rogues are ok, really, or they could just buff FOK like the last umpteen times rogues have been left on the shelf because of a lack of aoe. I know which one wll work. So do you.

Or just join a guild and play without morons and people following Noxxic.
Not tot mention the other benefits of bein part of a social group.

[Deleted]

Or just join a guild and play without morons and people following Noxxic.

Yeah, players won't do that.

You are wishing for a playerbase that doesn't exist. I am wishing that blizzard designed for the one they actually have.

Buff FoK so that rogue aoe isn't miles behind one button winners like DH, all will be instantly sorted.

[shaunika123]

....assassination rogue is the game's strongest ST spec.

it's not tho

at best it's 2nd but more likely third behind DHs and fury wars and about equal to DKs

DHs are by far the best ST spec atm

i mean rogues are in a decent spot atm and have their niché, but dont say nonsense

[Fiftyonred]

Who cares about PUGs when you can join a guild?

Who cares about guilds when you can join a pug!?

[Deleted]

Stop generalizing. You're talking about millions of players, as if YOU know what they want or don't want. Saying things like that is not helpful, much less accurate.

And you keep saying "buff FoK to fix Rogues". You are aware that FoK is only for Assassination Rogues, right? How is buffing one ability for one spec going to change the minds of, again, [b]uninformed[/b[ players about Rogues? You offer a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In other words, buffing FoK isn't going to fix their ignorance. Moreover, if you want to AoE notably as a Rogue, why play Assassination in the first place?

I'm having trouble understanding your logic. You can't fix stupid. Especially not with a buff to FoK.

Yeah, you can actually.

The problem is rogues crap AOE means they rank low on skada. Buff their AOE and then they won't rank low and so people like OP will get invites again.

Its not rocket science.

[ymirsson]

Yeah, players won't do that.

You are wishing for a playerbase that doesn't exist. I am wishing that blizzard designed for the one they actually have.

Buff FoK so that rogue aoe isn't miles behind one button winners like DH, all will be instantly sorted.

No, because fixes won't reach the uninformed. Hence the name.
If people having trouble just emancipated themselves and joined a guild or gather some friend or made some friends one could leave the PuG cesspool to the idiots and the alt characters.

[Fiftyonred]

Stop generalizing. You're talking about millions of players, as if YOU know what they want or don't want. Saying things like that is not helpful, much less accurate.

And you keep saying "buff FoK to fix Rogues". You are aware that FoK is only for Assassination Rogues, right? How is buffing one ability for one spec going to change the minds of, again, [b]uninformed[/b[ players about Rogues? You offer a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In other words, buffing FoK isn't going to fix their ignorance. Moreover, if you want to AoE notably as a Rogue, why play Assassination in the first place?

I'm having trouble understanding your logic. You can't fix stupid. Especially not with a buff to FoK.

Rogue AOE is just fine, especially so with the cloak. As soon as you start 13+ or higher mobs live long enough and pulls become small enough to remove any noticeable advantage other classes have (in general). My 890 mutilate rogue averages within 50k overall of my 895 DH.

If you suck, of course the spec will suck. If you don't, mutilate is super valuable in all levels of M+