Is history wrong?

[Kalcheus]

I am a record but how can you say 4500+ year old (my guess is older) structures not be evidence of a more advanced society? Again people need to try and think about this in a different way, dont compare our skyskrapers of today to what was built back then. What you need to try and do is compare our known records of peoples and how we have advanced technologically against the background of the pyramids/and or megalithic structures of that period. It truly does not add up, and to this day we are still finding sites older than the pyramids that go completely against our view of how we have advanced on a technological level (not even mentioning spiritually).

It does add up if you understand technology and history. The issue is that you're approaching what you see as a problem the same way religious types do: "I personally don't understand the whole situation, so rather than get educated, I'm leaping to an easy conclusion without evidence."

I also assure you, none of your ideas are new. Chariot of the Gods? was published in the 70s, and Graham Hancock published his works in the 90s.

[Fascinate]

This just simply isn't true. You have no rational basis for any of this, whatsoever.

Endus i understand you THINK you have evidence that explains how all this was done that i have no doubt. In your mind you truly feel it was done with timbers and logs and manpower, but this is just the pyramids. How do you explain sites like puma punku or any of the other 5000+ year old sites with 1 tonne+ stones that fit together perfectly without mortar? Mortar btw is still used today to fill in cracks that would be left by stone building techniques of today.

You can link you proof and i will read it, but be aware i am skeptical unless you have something that really blows my mind.

[Poopymonster]

I mean our perception

Is it possible there were civilizations far older than the ones we know of? Were they more advanced than we think?

DISCUSS!

History is wrote by the victors, so there are probably glaring holes in our understanding of old/ancient civilizations.

Or in modern parlance. History. Great stuff. Winners write it. Losers die out. Not worth it. Sad.

[Breccia]

Is it possible there were civilizations far older than the ones we know of? Were they more advanced than we think?

We've had a lot of time to look for such. If there were, they didn't leave anything behind...which implies they weren't that advanced.

[Fascinate]

It does add up if you understand technology and history. The issue is that you're approaching what you see as a problem the same way religious types do: "I personally don't understand the whole situation, so rather than get educated, I'm leaping to an easy conclusion without evidence."

I also assure you, none of your ideas are new. Chariot of the Gods? was published in the 70s, and Graham Hancock published his works in the 90s.

Where did you come up with any of that? In that reply i am ONLY focusing on the TECHNOLOGY. THINK about what we can do today (the greatest thing being skyscrapers) to what happened 4500+ years ago. How do you make the leap from one to another, when you take the time gap into account you could EASILY extrapolate that society would have had flying saucers by now.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Yes, and the proof is in the fact that we all sit around talking about race and gender privilege like there are any real disparities left when class privilege is far more of a real issue in the US.

[Revi]

The shame about my infraction is how important this topic is, and i didnt even make it. People know we have a lost history and it could hold the answers to a lot of our troubles, but the mmo forum boards wont let you talk about it openly.

Even if we feigned complete ignorance of human knowledge today and believed you, your internal logic makes no sense to me.

Monolithic structures were easily built because knowledge of a creator gave the power to control mystical energies to build them, yet monolithic structures - as easily built as they were - are incredibly rare and were revered for their wonder even in their time. That doesn't make a lick of sense.

You're saying so much weird stuff that I genuinely just think you're trolling.

[Mehrunes]

Dude i was infracted by "princess serenity" for even inserting my thoughts (original thoughts btw, not some crazy ass conspiracty theory). These forum moderators are literally the lowest form of human being i can imagine.

What's the difference? And I don't even mean it in context of your own thoughts. But what constitutes a conspiracy theory for you? Unoriginal thoughts, I take it?

[Deleted]

I am a record but how can you say 4500+ year old (my guess is older) structures not be evidence of a more advanced society?

And you keep ignoring my Pyramid of Djoser question.

[Dezerte]

How do you make the leap from one to another, when you take the time gap into account you could EASILY extrapolate that society would have had flying saucers by now.

I think we're all wondering how you can make that leap.

[Deleted]

I mean our perception

Is it possible there were civilizations far older than the ones we know of? Were they more advanced than we think?

DISCUSS!

Define "wrong".
Our documentation of history is flawed and full of holes. Everyone knows that. Depending on how far back you're talking, it becomes more and more patchworky and stitched together with bits and pieces. Some times also a lot of guesswork.
Our perception of history has been changed many times and some times quite dramatically as new information is revealed.

Of course ancient peoples were smart. The built some crazy stuff. Just because their methods are lost to us now doesn't mean they weren't capable of doing these things.

[Endus]

Well one side of the story i cant talk about in fear of moderation, but when talking about ancient civilizations and comparing it to what we currently can achieive you need to assess the 4500 year difference, most cannot TRULY do this. Its almost like trying to imagine infinity, you can sit there and try to imagine infinity but you will never get there.

The difference is that we ARE assessing it. YOU aren't.

Endus i understand you THINK you have evidence that explains how all this was done that i have no doubt. In your mind you truly feel it was done with timbers and logs and manpower, but this is just the pyramids. How do you explain sites like puma punku or any of the other 5000+ year old sites with 1 tonne+ stones that fit together perfectly without mortar? Mortar btw is still used today to fill in cracks that would be left by stone building techniques of today.

We use mortar today because mortar is cheap and easy. It means we don't HAVE to carve the stones to such a perfect fit, so we can use rougher-carved stones and use mortar to fill the gaps.

It's a technological leap forward in efficiency, not technique. Much like iron was; iron's a "worse" metal for tools than bronze, but it's far easier to smelt and work with.

You can link you proof and i will read it, but be aware i am skeptical unless you have something that really blows my mind.

Proof of what? You haven't made falsifiable claims. Are you asking me to "prove" literally all of human history?

Regarding pumapunku specifically;

http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/ref...ts/puma-punku/
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4202

It's neat, but it is not some kind of impossible achievement for the locals of that era.

[Mehrunes]

Fascinate is truly fascinating. So much opinion and wild theory, supported by naught but a single fa...wait..supported by not a single fact. That's what I meant to say.
It is amusing to read your musings though. You should bundle them my friend, surely some publisher could do something with it. You might even be the Asimov of the 21st century.

I'd lead towards L. Ron Hubbard.

[Endus]

Where did you come up with any of that? In that reply i am ONLY focusing on the TECHNOLOGY. THINK about what we can do today (the greatest thing being skyscrapers) to what happened 4500+ years ago. How do you make the leap from one to another, when you take the time gap into account you could EASILY extrapolate that society would have had flying saucers by now.

We DO have flying saucers. We decided they were a stupid design choice, which is why we don't actually USE them.



Even if your rationale had some basis (and it fundamentally doesn't), the specific example you mentioned is one we've already achieved, so your own rationale disproves your premise. Good job?

[jackofwind]

Well one side of the story i cant talk about in fear of moderation, but when talking about ancient civilizations and comparing it to what we currently can achieive you need to assess the 4500 year difference, most cannot TRULY do this. Its almost like trying to imagine infinity, you can sit there and try to imagine infinity but you will never get there.

I still don't really know what you're trying to say.

I have a degree in archaeology, have been on dig sites all over Greece, and have a significant knowledge of primary sources ranging from the Bronze Age to the height of the Roman era around the Aegean.

I know a fair bit about this stuff. What people really seem to underestimate is just how similar modern humans are to our ancestors of 2000 years ago. From the minute details of culture, to humour, to personal insults - everything is basically the same. The only significant difference is technology - but not ingenuity.

Are you trying to argue that 4500 years isn't enough time to become as technologically adept as we have? That we would never have gotten here without outside help? Because seriously let me point you to the Setians if that's what you're saying. It's a flight of fancy, nothing more.

[Endus]

Of course ancient peoples were smart. The built some crazy stuff. Just because their methods are lost to us now doesn't mean they weren't capable of doing these things.

And just to be clear, "their methods are lost to us" mostly means "they didn't leave records, so we know they COULD have done it any of these half-dozen ways, given their technology and available resources, but we can't tell which method they ACTUALLY used from the evidence available to us."

It isn't some mystical forgotten technique involving powers beyond science, or something.

[Fascinate]

And you keep ignoring my Pyramid of Djoser question.

All of those pyramids are still a wonder to me given the time gap, i am not sure you linking an earlier design pyramid boosts your argument either way? Lets also not forget the pyramids were far from the only massive structure in those days, seriously google puma punku and explain to me how that was done nearly 10000 years ago (estimated dates). Its not just the massive stone that were lifted but the way in which they were placed together, many of the ancient megaliths have stones over 1 tonne that fite the stone below it perfectly without mortar. Today we still use mortar to fit stones together to fill in the manufacturing defects, explain to me how FIVE CENTURIES ago people had that technique perfected?

Again i would like you all to sit back and try and imagine how long ago that is. Imagine going back to your childhood, now try and imagine your parents as kids, now your grandparents. Do you see what i am getting at here, and the time span we are talking about?

[Mehrunes]

I have this amazing idea that the empire state building was actually a single chunk of steel that had been in place for thousands of years. The skyscraper was carved out from this monolith rather than assembled. Now this happened before you were born though, therefore you cannot prove me wrong. I decree any resources to the contrary to be close-minded of my revelation.

This is an alternative fact, if I ever saw one. It is known the monolith wasn't mere steel, but some unknown metal of magical properties (related to sound). And it wasn't carved, but transmutated. The process of transmutation of that metal into steel resulted in some of the original material being expelled as pure energy instead and that's why Empire State Building is empty inside.

[Endus]

I know a fair bit about this stuff. What people really seem to underestimate is just how similar modern humans are to our ancestors of 2000 years ago. From the minute details of culture, to humour, to personal insults - everything is basically the same. The only significant difference is technology - but not ingenuity.

One of the earliest, if not THE earliest, written documents to survive is a shopping list; http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...opping-receipt

The oldest joke recorded is a fart joke; http://www.reuters.com/article/us-jo...14785120080731

We really haven't changed much at all.

- - - Updated - - -

All of those pyramids are still a wonder to me given the time gap, i am not sure you linking an earlier design pyramid boosts your argument either way? Lets also not forget the pyramids were far from the only massive structure in those days, seriously google puma punku and explain to me how that was done nearly 10000 years ago (estimated dates).

Estimated by who?

Radiocarbon dating puts Pumapunku at right around 1500 years old, built somewhere around 5-600 CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

Its not just the massive stone that were lifted but the way in which they were placed together, many of the ancient megaliths have stones over 1 tonne that fite the stone below it perfectly without mortar. Today we still use mortar to fit stones together to fill in the manufacturing defects, explain to me how FIVE CENTURIES ago people had that technique perfected?

You just went from "10000 years ago" to "five centuries ago", and you don't seem to realize this.

And again; mortar allows us to get away with faster work, not better work. It's an efficiency advantage, that's it. There's nothing about Pumapunku that's unexplainable; the stone is relatively soft and easy to work with stone tools. It's still an amazing piece of construction, but it isn't magic.

[Fascinate]

Please try and keep perspective people. The pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for THREE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS. 3,800. I dont doubt for a second fart jokes have been happening that long, but how do you explain to me above.