Old God Lore Ruined?

[Caerule]

Can somebody link me to an explanation of this whole old god / void lord / whatever stuff? Is this from a novel or something? There's so much lore I'm clearly missing out on as I have no idea what's going on.

Basically, the Void Lords want to consume all matter and energy of the physical universe. However, as void creatures, it would take incredible effort and energy for them to manifest beyond the Void. So their ability to do stuff is severely limited.

Titans are born from worlds with souls. Few worlds have a World Soul like this, but making life thrive on them is a way to stimulate and awaken them. The how of that is unclear, but perhaps the souls and natures of its inhabitants effect and evolve it in some way.

Unlike the Void Lords, the Titans have tremendous ability to interact and shape the physical universe. Something the Void Lords envy. Their solution was to create the Old Gods and hurl them out into space, to impact planets around the universe and convert them to hellish twisted shadow worlds. With the hope that one of these worlds would contain a World Soul, and would arise as a Dark Titan: A Titan twisted by the Void that could basically hand the universe to them on a silver platter.

Sargeras was driven mad when he found a slumbering tainted Titan. Realizing the plan of the Void Lords, he believed the only way to prevent this plan from succeeding is to kill all worlds. He freed the demons to be his army towards this goal. Unexpectedly releasing the Fel that had bottled up in their prison, forever tainting himself into a demonic Titan. A monster of evil and cruelty, that set about destroying the universe.

[Extremity]

Basically, the Void Lords want to consume all matter and energy of the physical universe. However, as void creatures, it would take incredible effort and energy for them to manifest beyond the Void. So their ability to do stuff is severely limited.

Titans are born from worlds with souls. Few worlds have a World Soul like this, but making life thrive on them is a way to stimulate and awaken them. The how of that is unclear, but perhaps the souls and natures of its inhabitants effect and evolve it in some way.

Unlike the Void Lords, the Titans have tremendous ability to interact and shape the physical universe. Something the Void Lords envy. Their solution was to create the Old Gods and hurl them out into space, to impact planets around the universe and convert them to hellish twisted shadow worlds. With the hope that one of these worlds would contain a World Soul, and would arise as a Dark Titan: A Titan twisted by the Void that could basically hand the universe to them on a silver platter.

Sargeras was driven mad when he found a slumbering tainted Titan. Realizing the plan of the Void Lords, he believed the only way to prevent this plan from succeeding is to kill all worlds. He freed the demons to be his army towards this goal. Unexpectedly releasing the Fel that had bottled up in their prison, forever tainting himself into a demonic Titan. A monster of evil and cruelty, that set about destroying the universe.

Awesome, thanks! I didn't know anything about Void Lords or them creating the Old Gods. Has that been the lore all along or was it more recently revealed?

[Hctaz]

You are wrong, the entire pantheon didn't deal with them. Titankeepers did it. When situation got dire with 1 old god. Amanthul came and struck him with one blow into gg.

That was a retcon. The original lore was that the entire pantheon straight up came to deal with the old gods and struggled to win. The only reason they won was because the Old Gods wouldn't work together and that if they did then Sargeras himself would be powerless to stop them. The battle that killed Y'shaarj also resulted in the death of a titan.

They retconned this to be keepers and not the actual titans, this diminishing the power of the Old Gods significantly.

[Raetary]

Awesome, thanks! I didn't know anything about Void Lords or them creating the Old Gods. Has that been the lore all along or was it more recently revealed?

canon since chronicles vol.1

[Mehrunes]

They've been incredibly overhyped by some part of the community. Sure, their power-level has been someone nerfed, but even prior to that they weren't as powerful as some people made them out to be. Prime example the nonsensical idea that they can't die.

That was a retcon. The original lore was that the entire pantheon straight up came to deal with the old gods and struggled to win. The only reason they won was because the Old Gods wouldn't work together and that if they did then Sargeras himself would be powerless to stop them. The battle that killed Y'shaarj also resulted in the death of a titan.

They retconned this to be keepers and not the actual titans, this diminishing the power of the Old Gods significantly.

That was C'thun. Against unknown, unnamed Titan. Y'Shaarj was originally killed by mere Mogu. Y'Shaarj came out severely buffed out of the latest retcon.

[Selastan]

There is a lot of mystery around the void lords, if blizz plays it right then they could be really cool with that oldschool old god vibe.

Right. I feel like with our current information, The Void Lords are just big Void Walkers in my head. But if they turn out like Old Gods but bigger, that would be cool. Also, what about other beings of the Void? Are the Old Gods the strongest minions possess? The Old Gods were created with a specific purpose, corruption. What if the Void Lords created other things just as powerful as the Old Gods, but designed with destruction in mind? MAYBE THAT IS WHERE MURMUR CAME FROM OMG MY SPECULATION MODE IS IN OVERDRIVE!!!

[Grusalugg]

That's my point. Originally we didn't know how the war between the Old Gods and Titans went down. We just knew that there were more Titans then there were Old Gods, so doing some math you would think that if four Old Gods could rival seven Titans that would make the Old Gods stronger. It was all speculation then though.

You misunderstood my message I think, again Titan didn't bother with Old Gods. Titankeepers fought them. For 1 old god, Amanthul came and crushed it. Titans (Phanteon) and Titankeepers are different beings. Four Old Gods didn't really RIVAL seven titans.

[Wondercrab]

Look. As all the things based on the creations of Lovecraft, the Old Gods need one important thing to be awesome: Mystery. You don't see the horror to fear it.

...But now we know what spawned those Old Gods, what is their purpose, how do they look like - there's no mystery. No "what?". Just a "how do we punch it in the face".

I'm glad someone got there before me!

The entire appeal of Lovecraftian horrors is that their true nature is unknowable, incomprehensible, even, to the audience. Obviously no artist can ever represent something truly "incomprehensible" in that way, so it's important that they let the audience's mind fill in the blanks, playing into one of the core conceits of horror.

As soon as they explained the Old Gods they stopped being mysterious Lovecraftian spooks and just became Blizzard Bad Guys #52B. It was a huge waste of one of the more interesting and (at least initially) well-handled elements of WoW's lore. Unfortunately Blizzard's writing people struggle with subtlety, and they frequently do things like this where they pull together the surface level pieces of ideas that work, but don't grasp the nuance that's required to make them work.

[Gaidax]

Nothing really ruined, just the goalpost moved back a notch, now Void Lords are in fashion instead.

Who knows, in 10 years from now we may discover that Void Lords were some janitors for Dark Uberlords of Absolute Doom or something.

[Rathbourne]

That was C'thun. Against unknown, unnamed Titan. Y'Shaarj was originally killed by mere Mogu. Y'Shaarj came out severely buffed out of the latest retcon.

i dont think the part about C'thun KOing a Titan is canon anymore.It could be a Titanforged though...perhaps a mysterious unknown Titan keeper.

[Benomatic]

I really hope Blizzard reinforces the Lovecraftian eldritch horror of the old gods. The element of madness and despair, the psychological horror.

As much as the chronicle ironed out and retconned what we thought we knew, they are still pretty mysterious and very powerful. Just look at the black empire, the enslavement of the elementals, their minions with the various insectoid races, I personally think a lot of that the player has experienced pales significantly to what happened in those chaotic primordial times!

Personally I'd love a zone in a old god expansion which is similar to Innsmouth, dilapidated buildings, coastal, gloomy. At dusk the human population turn into murlocs similar how the humans in pyrewood turned into worgen at dusk.

The old god minion Soggoth the Slitherer could of been so much more!

What about the dead goliaths?

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I always thought it was the remains of the forgotten one Arthas and Anub'arak kill just as they exit Azjol'Nerub on the Icecrown side

Where they come up was Naz'anak wasn't it?

Naz'anak: The Forgotten Depths is a cave located far beneath Icecrown Citadel. Normally the player's first time visiting here will be through the quests A [80] Set it Off! / H [80] Blow it Up!, where the result of lighting the fuse on several Saronite bombs knocks the player off the rail, and in to the large saronite-lined hole, eventually falling down through a crack in the ice into the water in Naz'anak.
Also, it has a rich biodiversity of fungal plantlife, and seems to be the home of at least two dozen Faceless ones. The Altar of the Ebon Depths is also located within here, which was previously required by tailors to create [Ebonweave] cloth.
Naz'anak is divided into two small rooms, each with a small lake in their center (one of which the player falls in). The rooms are connected by a nerubian hallway that contains the Altar of the Ebon Depths.

Some fans speculate that Naz'anak is actually the Icecrown exit of the Azjol-Nerub tunnel which Arthas and Anub'arak used as a shortcut to Icecrown (seen in the mission "Ascent to the Upper Kingdom"). This would make sense, since it is a cavern very alike to the Old Kingdom, and it holds Faceless ones.
If this is so, its location also would indicate that it is a part of the Upper Kingdom of Azjol-Nerub.


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Is that thing in the quarry near the Shadow Vault actually part of Yogg-Saron or just some random graphical weirdness? I always did wonder about that, as it looks a lot like part of C'thun than it does any part of Yogg-Saron.

"There is a kind of maw at the bottom of the water in the center of the Weeping Quarry - a Saronite mine - which moves and seems to be alive. Perhaps one of the "thousand maws" of the Old God Yogg-Saron or a different Old God. It looks similiar to and shares the model with C'Thun.[1] It is possible to swim into the mouth and past it. The mouth seems to disappear with only the corners remaining."

Yeah that one!

[Deleted]

Void Lords are a result of Blizzard running out of ideas and of old WC lore to butcher. WoW requires always new enemies, more powerful than the last. In 5 years from now expect a reveal about how Void Lords are only pawns of Edge Lords who control everything from the shadow and are 10-times more powerful.

[Matthias]

Basically, the Void Lords want to consume all matter and energy of the physical universe. However, as void creatures, it would take incredible effort and energy for them to manifest beyond the Void. So their ability to do stuff is severely limited.

Titans are born from worlds with souls. Few worlds have a World Soul like this, but making life thrive on them is a way to stimulate and awaken them. The how of that is unclear, but perhaps the souls and natures of its inhabitants effect and evolve it in some way.

Unlike the Void Lords, the Titans have tremendous ability to interact and shape the physical universe. Something the Void Lords envy. Their solution was to create the Old Gods and hurl them out into space, to impact planets around the universe and convert them to hellish twisted shadow worlds. With the hope that one of these worlds would contain a World Soul, and would arise as a Dark Titan: A Titan twisted by the Void that could basically hand the universe to them on a silver platter.

Sargeras was driven mad when he found a slumbering tainted Titan. Realizing the plan of the Void Lords, he believed the only way to prevent this plan from succeeding is to kill all worlds. He freed the demons to be his army towards this goal. Unexpectedly releasing the Fel that had bottled up in their prison, forever tainting himself into a demonic Titan. A monster of evil and cruelty, that set about destroying the universe.

Even this kind of bothers me....I kind of like Sargeras being evil for the sake of being...well evil. A cliché Saturday morning cartoon villain. He went mad is all in the idea of order.

Now it turns out his goal the entire time was altruistic in it's own way? Then why the hell are demons such pricks? At least someone like Algalon act's just in his cause to incinerate us.

[Gaidax]

Void Lords are a result of Blizzard running out of ideas and of old WC lore to butcher.

I simply think it is the case where well, face it - there is a choice, either WoW will be a nonstop clownshow where we constantly fight random assortment of fodder "z","x","s","r" containing name mixes with some watercooler lore they sucked out of their thumbs or we actually do progress in story and eventually face the source of the problem defeating it and not just having yet another Sunwell-esque end where we end up being big bad exclaiming "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids" and end up with "to be continued in 10 years" result.

So yes, we will destroy Old Gods, we will destroy The Burning Legion, so Blizzard gotta go ahead and plan for next big bads instead of trying to salvage whatever is left of 20+ years lore now, which started out as "evul big green humans from other planet want to kill everyone", anyway.

[LazarusLong]

i dont think the part about C'thun KOing a Titan is canon anymore.It could be a Titanforged though...perhaps a mysterious unknown Titan keeper.

Technically it old god followers said that. It was not objective info or truth.

[Evangeliste]

I am sad that things like the Old Gods were like reduced to nothing then again... it gives more reason to their names, the "Old Gods". I don't know the exact lore on the Void lords, maybe they came and overthrew them though I highly doubt it but it tickles me... Anyway, you could wonder if the Void Lords have more to play with and so on, whether they could make 'New Gods' that upset the Titans to come and ruin what they created or even them. I know it's a long shot and all but I prefer the idea that both the titans had minions such as the keepers and the old gods are minions themselves because now they've open up the horizon to World of Warcraft even more.

The Void Lords could even be bigger and badder because the Old Gods were just basically buddying up to Azeroth while the Titans have always been universe-surfing and I for the life of me, can't believe I fell for it hook, line and sinker that the Old Gods were on equal terms because well, there would be a power struggle always and there wasn't. The Titans were stronger always and dminish this Old Gods without worry but now, it's like actually... You have a decent rival now. Void lords versus Titans.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Unlike the Void Lords, the Titans have tremendous ability to interact and shape the physical universe. Something the Void Lords envy. Their solution was to create the Old Gods and hurl them out into space, to impact planets around the universe and convert them to hellish twisted shadow worlds.

Mhhh...so these void lords created the Old Gods? That's kinda odd to me since Old Gods are physical and the Void wouldn't be something that has "physical" beings inside it no?

[Caerule]

Mhhh...so these void lords created the Old Gods? That's kinda odd to me since Old Gods are physical and the Void wouldn't be something that has "physical" beings inside it no?

The void is probably largely empty of things with much in the way of substance, nourishment or energy. So yeah, it's unclear how the Old Gods were made.
We know the Void Lords teamed up for it.
We know the Old Gods are physical manifestations of the Void.
We know the Void Lords themselves are made out of void energy, not matter. Making it hard for them to exist in the physical universe.

The clues to figuring out Old God creation may lie in their powers: The Curse of Flesh. Old Gods have the ability to transform inorganic matter into flesh. There's no reason to assume their creators lacked that ability. My theory would be that the Void Lords teamed up to pull matter into the hungering void, perhaps even an entire planet, and then transformed it into flesh, to forge the Old Gods. Before hurling them into the physical universe where, unlike them, they could exist without trouble.

[Frontenac]

I would say that it is not so much that the Old Gods were made weaker than the Titans were made much more powerful.

[Caerule]

I would say that it is not so much that the Old Gods were made weaker than the Titans were made much more powerful.

This is actually a great point. We used to imagine Titans as beings on a scale certainly that the Keepers measured up to, the way we measured up to the Keepers. Beings of great power that shaped the landscape, climate and life of lands, and that could take on armies.

We never imagined them as being so gigantic, that they don't normally interact with worlds, because they are far too big for such delicate shaping, relying on their proxies to do so. They are being the size of planets, whose battles extinguish suns. It's not that Old Gods are no longer super powerful, able to doom worlds. It's that the Titans are able to crush Gods in their fists.