The player character ass kissing this expansion

[Surfd]

this is not a sandbox, this is not D&D this is not a choose your own adventure... this is a progressive story

Actually, if this was D&D, the character would have it even worse. Given the evens that transpire over the course of the WoW storyline, a Character taking part in Legion would probably be easily the equivalent of a level 15-18 or higher D&D character. And if you go by some of the D&D guides, there are probably only a few hundred level 18 people on an entire continent in a "normal" world (and that covers like every class and profession lumped together). Your character would be the stuff of legend, their name would be instantly recognizable pretty much anywhere due to their feats alone. They would pretty much be beating followers off with sticks, would probably own their own castles or even small fiefdoms, and would be influential names in global politics. If you were some kind of specialist class, like a Druid or Assassin, you would probably have a pretty high ranking position on the inner councils that pretty much run things in your field of influence on the continent, if not being the head of the entire guild or order at that.

I mean, consider in DnD that the average level of a "non" adventurer pretty much caps out at around 3 or 4 for the typical person, and maybe around 6 or 7 for about 90% of the rest of the population to extend into experienced people like Professional artisans, guards, mercs, and the like, someone level 15 or higher is going to basically be a nearly god like force to the average joe.

[FelPlague]

Actually, if this was D&D, the character would have it even worse. Given the evens that transpire over the course of the WoW storyline, a Character taking part in Legion would probably be easily the equivalent of a level 15-18 or higher D&D character. And if you go by some of the D&D guides, there are probably only a few hundred level 18 people on an entire continent in a "normal" world (and that covers like every class and profession lumped together). Your character would be the stuff of legend, their name would be instantly recognizable pretty much anywhere due to their feats alone. They would pretty much be beating followers off with sticks, would probably own their own castles or even small fiefdoms, and would be influential names in global politics. If you were some kind of specialist class, like a Druid or Assassin, you would probably have a pretty high ranking position on the inner councils that pretty much run things in your field of influence on the continent, if not being the head of the entire guild or order at that.

I mean, consider in DnD that the average level of a "non" adventurer pretty much caps out at around 3 or 4 for the typical person, and maybe around 6 or 7 for about 90% of the rest of the population to extend into experienced people like Professional artisans, guards, mercs, and the like, someone level 15 or higher is going to basically be a nearly god like force to the average joe.

i was talking about in the sense of the person saying "i wanna do evil shit iwanna be an anti hero but the quests wont let me"

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didn't we work directly with stormwind high-ups when dealing with onyxia? pretty sure we did. even then we weren't nobodies.



and i am free to dislike it thank you very much.

in vanilla? no we dont really, we get thanked, get a peice of gear, then its never mentioned again

well then if you dislike it, play something you like

[Linkedblade]

This is the polar opposite of what happened at the beginning of burning crusade. You're character killed an old god, a floating Acropolis filled with scourge. You get drafted to go to Outland. With all your achievements, your first task is to kill pigs... And no one knew who you were.

The story for this expansion is that after your tenure as commander of the draenor campaign you help in the assault of the broken shore. After a terrible defeat and loss of life, you survive. And you are left to pick up the pieces.

[Immitis]

Its about as bad as link going from some random fuckboi in the middle of the ocean to becoming friends with the king of hyrule and being crowned by the gods as the succesor to the original heroes soul at the tower of gods.

except link didnt help fight against multiple world ending threats every year for the past 7 years and survive every one of them.

[Katie45]

Here I'll pretend it was like before during bc and wrath. What the hell blizzard I AM A HERO I KILLED OLD GODS, NOW YOUR MAKING ME KILL BOARSSSSS? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Extremity]

We're fighting the Legion, man. This expansion ends with us giving them a DEVASTATING blow, which also hurts and potentially kills some of the biggest, baddest, and strongest villains in the franchise's history. This entire expansion has revolved around making the player feel powerful, from the millions of HP (consider how long ago we had a stat squish; letting it get this high again was very clearly an intentional choice) to artifact weapons based on famous/legendary items from lore, to the reaction from NPCs. We're meant to be stronger and more powerful than ever before, each of us effectively becoming as strong and legendary as almost any other Azeroth-based character from lore. We're basically raid boss strong right now relative to anything that came before Legion.

So, from a role playing game perspective, any random person sitting in a town that sees us walk by would obviously lick our boots. You can't think of it in literal terms where there are millions of heroes passing this dude every day. This is your specific story; to that NPC, you're "the" hero. Of course they're going to think you're the (wo)man.

[Joey Ray III]

in vanilla? no we dont really, we get thanked, get a peice of gear, then its never mentioned again

we worked with important lore figures from the start. we were being recognized, the game just wasn't obnoxious about it. it is now.

[Deleted]

haHAA I'm 12 and I cringe at everything haHAA

[FelPlague]

we worked with important lore figures from the start. we were being recognized, the game just wasn't obnoxious about it. it is now.

except we wernt.... the game literally said most of the bosses we never even had a part in, and most of the time "a bunch of adventurers"

yes of corse you helped do these things, but you were never recognized for doing them

[Farrarie]

[QUOTE=FelPlague;44545853]so would you rather "we are nobodies forever, no matter what raid boss we kill, we are still nobodies"
or
"holy shit i have a champion of azeroth infront of me, sir could you please deal with the bandits that attack us each month!?"

[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1]

NO ARCHI AND KJ ARE SUPERIOR THAN AZSHARA
When the portal to the other realm was almost open, the combined force of the night elves and their allies from the future (see War of the Ancients) charged in to destroy it. Irritated by the lack of order, Azshara approached Mannoroth and demanded an explanation. Enraged by both his own failure and the questions asked by the Queen, he nearly attacked Azshara, but quickly realized the folly of such an attempt when he realized that Azshara kept inside her a power to which (((((((((((only Sargeras, Kil'jaeden or Archimonde would prove superior)))))))))). Azshara forgave him of his minor transgression and urged him on to allow Sargeras entrance to Kalimdor

[Dahlia Dawnseeker]

she is weaker than KJ and archi.

She is still very powerful. However, I think that if we got to face Azshara as a main antagonist, she will get some kind of an empowerment.

My theory is N'zoth being a mid-expansion boss, and her absorbing his remains and getting even more powerful than she is.

[Trassk]

except we wernt.... the game literally said most of the bosses we never even had a part in, and most of the time "a bunch of adventurers"

yes of corse you helped do these things, but you were never recognized for doing them

And what was so wrong about that? It at least meant the player wasn't as ego driven as they are now.

[Farrarie]

[QUOTE=Dahlia Dawnseeker;44548025]She is still very powerful. However, I think that if we got to face Azshara as a main antagonist, she will get some kind of an empowerment.

My theory is N'zoth being a mid
she is powerfull yess but as the end boss no N,zoth is more powerfull smarter and more cunning he is the last end boss
I think it will be like bc Azshara as Illidan N'zoth as Kil'jaeden
as N'zoth is the secret end expansion

[Not A Cat]

I'm only annoyed at the PvP aspect of it. My character has gone to hell and back to save Azeroth countless times. But for some reason I still have to follow the orders of an angry wolfman or a hot zombie in their pointless conflict over a misunderstanding.

During all of these world-saving excursions we are showed that warring with one another just makes things more difficult. Despite all of this our characters are still forced to be ignorant of this fact.

Basically I just want to tell Sylvanas to fuck off while I beat Nathanos to a pulp in front of her. And I want to tell Genn to fuck off and stop playing king while teaching Anduin to be more assertive.

[Dagoth Ur]

except we wernt.... the game literally said most of the bosses we never even had a part in, and most of the time "a bunch of adventurers"

yes of corse you helped do these things, but you were never recognized for doing them

I prefer it that way to be honest.

When you assign all those wins to "advanturers" or "armies of Horde/alliance" you acknowledge all players together. In WoD and Legion they started to call on player's achievments individually and lorewise it's a disaster. I don't know how Blizz sees this but IMO the biggest problem is distuingishing lore from gameplay. Gameplay-wise of course you'll see and defeat all these raid bosses because ultimately WoW is just a game and you have to have access to all raids. Lorewise it's stupid to assign all those raid bosses to us. It just brings up questions like: Why we aren't faction leader yet? What can even stop us? What with all that gear we hoarded? All wins should be assigned to x/y faction and that way it doesn't look like it's one person defeating all these villains which is lame -> makes that person looks invincible, god-like etc etc

I always thought of player characters as our window into the lives of armies of Azeroth -> We don't exist lorewise but instead we're blent into the army collective.

That's the way I prefer... Legion and WoD changed that into acknowledging players individually making us invincible, Mary-suish which I don't like for the story. The next thing you know players will start appearing in cinematics lol

[Astalnar]

I think what OP is trying to say, that the whole elevation of our characters to the status of heroes feel contrived. It doesn't feel like the characters earned it through the period of time. Yes, we the players killed Everyone from Ragnaros to Arthas, from Illidan to Garrosh. But in regards all that, throught the lore, our characters are always the anonymus members of the force set to fight against X. The credit is never given. More often we are skinning wolves, than saving world. There is the disconnect between the players and the characters, where it feels like characters are being rewarded for the things players accomplished.

Another thing is the lack of agency over the motivations and actions of our characters. They are just railroaded into being the commanders and leaders. They now represent the ideal of their class. For some that is great fit, for others that doesn't make any sense.

[Joey Ray III]

except we wernt.... the game literally said most of the bosses we never even had a part in, and most of the time "a bunch of adventurers"

yes of corse you helped do these things, but you were never recognized for doing them

not directly but we were a guy to go to when shit hit the fan. and this is where the line should have been drawn cause anything above that just doesn't work in a game where you go around being an errand boy. if they wanted us being a commander they should have made warcraft 4.

[FelPlague]

not directly but we were a guy to go to when shit hit the fan. and this is where the line should have been drawn cause anything above that just doesn't work in a game where you go around being an errand boy. if they wanted us being a commander they should have made warcraft 4.

again yes we have allways been the one to do the job
but we killed an old god, (and it was "lol nah medan and a few others killed em") we defeated rag, we beat naxxramas, and the next expansion it was "you, there, random person help me, i dont know who you are but go do some shit"

[Koryn123]

So you're asking for basically 12 class halls to cater for 36 specs on top of 13 races as well to create individuality? I mean they have time to develop but, if you don't want any other content that's cool...

And the reason we don't talk is because some games choose to do that. Being an online game, some things need to be pruned and not all the individuality in the world can happen. Mostly for time, some for money. As the game has always been, you don't talk, so I can't see after 10 years they will change it. The voice acting has been for lore characters other than us, and on top of that, well people will complain as they always do on that it sounds wrong.
I don't think it's really a point to add our characters to voice act when let's be fair in end content you're not going to spend your time in your class hall wanting to chit-chat. You're going to be raiding, dungeoning, so on... I spend virtually 5 minutes a day in my class hall to talk to my board, visit the forge and talk to the big chest. That's it. Questing is even less when most people will skip cinematics, auto accept and finish quests and so on. To add unnecessary things to have in game files to render, to be played on the server, so on, just to humour a smaller section of gameplay compared to the majority of it isn't really good practice. Would you rather then fixed errors like broken classes, lack of damage, interaction issues between spells or to make sure a game file of your character talking plays on que?
Games where you as the protagonist don't speak for themselves is quite a often used resource, I can think of plenty that occurs. And besides, you normally go to the person to click on them, that's us interacting with them not them coming to us unless it's things like a cinematic, in-game roleplay and the like...

That would be the only way to make it realistic or satisfying enough for anyone who doesn't play a human character.

There's nothing wrong with making the player a prominent figure, but doing ANYTHING to indicate that the player spoke to their gathered troops like any other prominent lore figure in the past would be better than Maxwell being like "I'll speak for you."

Doesn't have to be for each spec (though maybe one for shadow, and one for Disc/Holy priests since they're so diametrically opposite that it makes no sense from a lore standpoint that the holy priests would invite the shadow priests, especially not troll witch doctors, who lorewise have absolutely nothing to do with like the Church of the Light or anything).

Presenting the player as being supposedly a strong leader, then spinning around and making them seem like a shy little kid, is very jarring and takes away the feeling Blizzard was trying to give.

[Matthias]

so would you rather "we are nobodies forever, no matter what raid boss we kill, we are still nobodies"
or
"holy shit i have a champion of azeroth infront of me, sir could you please deal with the bandits that attack us each month!?"

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manaroth said her power was only outmatched by sargeras himself, so she seems to be more powerful then KJ or archi (atleast as a caster)

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this very much shows where bias comes in

you speak of TBC as
"every zone was different but i had the legion abit in each zone ,keeping their influence known, and very few demons"
same with wrath you talk about "how good it was that they each had their own story but overall there was abit of the main evil watching over you"

then you go onto "aww my god the game became so stupid" burt lets do the same you do with wrath and TBC to the other expansions

In the cataclysm you had all these zones, that dident have deathwing in them or his twilight cultists/oldgods other then twilight highlands, but i mean when you whent to uldum you knew the desert tribes were at war and needed to band together, and harrison ford needed help finding some treasures! you had this theme of ejypt
and in and you had a zone under the ocean of naga and sea creatures, it was so beutiful!, you had stories working with the water elementals and saving the spirits of the lost nightelves there

and all these zones had slight bits of story pointing towards the final boss to remind you what is going on, but arnt the focus until the end

can do the same for pandaria, draenor, and legion...


TLR
your showing alot of bias, talking about how good TBC and wrath was because the zones each had their own story, and explain it, then cata-legion you simply ignore this and play them off like "eh mop was just helping a bunch of pandas" (even though pandaria 5 of the zones wernt really focused on helping pandas)

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welcome to a story based game
you wanna be the evil bad guy, go play a sandbox game or D&D
were playing a story arche, we have to be the good guys, allthough in your own way you may not be as good, for example the warlocks and DKs do alot of fucked up shit in their campaigns, but its still for the good of defeating the legion...

The Old Gods and Twilight Cultist are linked to Deathwing because they're linked to the Old Gods. They're allied with him. You are right that Ulduar was a big deviation. Though even Al'kir is allied with Deathwing and his presence it there.

And MoP yea, I'm sorry it's panda land, there some great things like the Klaxxi and the Thunder King, but I'm just saying how I felt.

Draenor every zones story aside from Spires are about the Iron Horde. Once again all 3 of those just don't have many options so the core story is pigeon holed into them.