Ghostcrawler on unsubbing

[deniter]

People quit the game because it's no longer fun, time has nothing to do with it, if you can only play 2-4 hours a week and you have fun doing it why not continue playing? Changes made to the game made me quit, i still have plenty of time, but the game is not has engaging or rewarding has it once was.

Indeed, but according to GC we are actually pretty rare individuals.

[Relapses]

How does he know the reason why people are quitting?

I'd imagine during the years he was lead designer for WoW, he was exposed to data Blizzard compiled from people who quit the game. (It does ask you why you quit when you unsub.) The tl,dr of what he said is that most people didn't quit because Blizzard introduced a new feature, changed a class or killed off of a major lore figure but more because they simply moved on with their lives.

[Niwes]

People quit the game because it's no longer fun, time has nothing to do with it, if you can only play 2-4 hours a week and you have fun doing it why not continue playing? Changes made to the game made me quit, i still have plenty of time, but the game is not has engaging or rewarding has it once was.

yep. i think ghostcrawler (on purpose) derailed that to a "1 change i disliked that much, so i quitted" thing. he not speaks about the game changing slowly into something else and ppl leave because after a while its no longer theirs. he circumnavigate around that part wisely.

and, agreed to the quoted post, i strongly believe there are a lot of players have plenty of time and fill their time now with other games, not because they were upset about 1 or 2 design changes, but because the game driven away from what that player called a fun game. imo millions of ppl every day stopped playing wow, because they finally reached the "its just no longer mine" point.

imo a mmorpg is not the right place for a lot of innovation. thats just not at what mmorpg games are based on. of course we need innovation in such games. but slowly, in special corners. i dont believe that it is healthy for a mmorpg game to massively innovate the core of the game and the overall design of the game. thats not what naturally conforms to a mmorpg game.

look at subnumbers of wow. forget about the "how" they changed the game (more catering to the masses etc.). just look at WHEN there was slowly a lot of SOME change (regardless what). thn you will see, they changed not that much while vanilla till end of TBC. TBC brought flying, 25 not 40 raids and some class mechanics as innovations. that was it. first half of Wotlk exactly the same. Most of the things added were just "content". Not that much innovations. At mid-end Wotlk they started with a lot of innovations, often called QoL changes. They added LFG, LFR, Pet Battles, Shop, changed overall game design, implemented Quest Helper, changed raid systems, and so on. Exactly the point when they started to "innovate" the game overall, was the point the subs just going down down down. Before it was up up up.

Now you say: "Of course at some point it must go always down because the game is gettin old."

And you are right. BUT: I miss the point in the game were (as in nearly all that things) the game has his high and was STABLE at this high for 1-2-3 years. where are the 2-3 years on the top of the graph when the game reached his maximum (lets say 12mio ppl), is stable, and drop when gettin old ? this part not exists in wow. instead, at the highest point they innovate the game and it started dropping immediately.

And thats what i say. Thats my evidence of "overall innovation is not healthy in a mmorpg". wow never had his "long term top of the zenith" phase, because the innovations take it away. and this clearly shows (just look at the sub numbers graph) that innovations and mmorpg games do not match naturally.

by default, mmorpgs are games with long term investment, mostly dedicated to a specific playerbase. if this is your playground, its naturally that a lot of changes and innovations do not match that game pattern.

or in short: a lot of innovations in short circles is better placed in a game with a short term design base, fluctuating audience, targeted to the masses, young kids, etc. the mmorpg genre naturally goes into the other direction, is asking for long term commitment, time investment, a solid long term playing customer base and so on. its the wrong place, naturally, for staedy innovations.

[WowIsDead64]

TL;DR GC advocates Blizzard via saying:
1) Players don't quit due to game design reasons
2) Constant game design changes are better, than keeping the same design

I wouldn't trust him, cuz he was the reason of Cata/MOP fails.

[Deleted]

Has GC seen unsubscribe form?

I haven't used subscription for years, but last time I did unsubscribe, form asking why I unsubscribed did not include any viable options. It had options that GC mentioned about family/job + stupidest ever options such as "[insert item] is too hard", where [insert item] is something that is very very easy, making those options pointless.

Badly designed questionnaires lead to bad feedback.

[Lilija]

So yeah, not really sure what you want to prove to people.

That thing that some people on the forums dislike and are very vocal about it is never THE MAIN reason people quit games.

I bet that even in WoD most people who quit did it due to reasons not connected with the game itself. The quits that happen due to reasons connected to game designs are just fluctuations. Also, a thing that makes one person quit may attract another person and this is something people rarely take into account. I actually enjoyed WoD for what it was. Tho I admit, at some point they were too slow with non raiding content while raiding content was a bit too fast at times (at the begining which resulted in a too long last content).

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TL;DR GC advocates Blizzard via saying:
1) Players don't quit due to game design reasons
2) Constant game design changes are better, than keeping the same design

I wouldn't trust him, cuz he was the reason of Cata/MOP fails.

"I disagree with the guy so he must be lying about the data"
"I know better than the guy who actually has seen the data while I only have my anecdotal evidence"

Cognitive dissonance at its best

Also, Cataclysm happened when Blizzard started listening to the Vanilla/TBC whiners on the forums. I'm glad they've learnt their lesson.

[Farrarie]

wow is popular game with many players you cant make them all happy do the best you can and thats it
but listing only to certain players may cause a big problem becuase many have diffrent taste

[Deleted]

His analysis is seems oddly incomplete, he is missing 'the 5 whys'. If someone says 'my friends don't play anymore', there is likely a reason why those friends don't play anymore (or not seen as playing). Similarly when someone says 'I have less time' - the question is why people stop playing instead of playing less.

Its not just that, problem is those are the only 2 real options in feedback form. Other options are stupid beyond belief.

[Deleted]

People that pay the game with gamecards aren't even asked to leave feedback on why they left, because they do not have a sub.

[Armourboy]

That thing that some people on the forums dislike and are very vocal about it is never THE MAIN reason people quit games.

I bet that even in WoD most people who quit did it due to reasons not connected with the game itself. The quits that happen due to reasons connected to game designs are just fluctuations. Also, a thing that makes one person quit may attract another person and this is something people rarely take into account. I actually enjoyed WoD for what it was. Tho I admit, at some point they were too slow with non raiding content while raiding content was a bit too fast at times (at the begining which resulted in a too long last content).

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I love how people try and revise WoD to be " not that bad ". WoD was a disaster. People didn't quit because of personal reasons, people quit because the expansion sucked. How do you know? Unlike previous expansions where numbers slowly dwindled, they pretty much sank like a freaking rock at the end of the first month. They literally lost something like 3 million subs after the first month or two. It was received extremely poor and continued to nose dive. It basically lead Blizzard to stop posting sub numbers.

Look I won't argue that GC isn't right, that over the years that large amounts of people simply stop playing for personal reasons. Considering the millions that have come and gone the odds that 1 particular change outdid those millions is probably a long shot. Where I will disagree with him though is that they don't see massive shifts due to other reasons than personal. They didn't try and get out of WoD as fast as possible because people were leaving because of personal reasons. They got out of it asap, and essentially stopped development on it because they knew people didn't find it fun at all.

So yes technically he is correct. However if people unsubbing in mass wasn't seen, you tell me what the heck changed their tune on no-flying so fast? It wasn't because of talk on the forums, they had been getting an ear full of that all expansion and it didn't bother them. So I am gonna call BS that unsubbing on one specific thing can't make an impact. Does it on most things? No that I agree. Does it never make an impact? I'm straight up calling BS on that notion.

[Jabberie]

How does he know the reason why people are quitting?

You get asked in a questionnaire when you cancel your sub.

[Yunru]

Ghost Crawler makes some salient points. The truth is that the only effective way for most players to influence game developers is by posting constructive and detailed critique on a relevant forum.

The more efficent way is to not pay them. Most of suggestions get trash-binned pretty fast. Not to mention they only read US forums. Eu is ignored.

[Lilija]

I love how people try and revise WoD to be " not that bad ". WoD was a disaster.

So you want to tell me that when I say that I personally enjoyed WoD I am somehow wrong?

People didn't quit because of personal reasons, people quit because the expansion sucked. How do you know?

And how do you know why people quit? You know only of those who expressed it on the forums. You don't know about the majority that didn't.

Unlike previous expansions where numbers slowly dwindled, they pretty much sank like a freaking rock at the end of the first month. They literally lost something like 3 million subs after the first month or two. It was received extremely poor and continued to nose dive. It basically lead Blizzard to stop posting sub numbers.

Cataclysm was losing at the begining pretty fast as well. Also, WoD was massivly hyped and some people hoped for something WoW can never ever give them.

Look I won't argue that GC isn't right, that over the years that large amounts of people simply stop playing for personal reasons. Considering the millions that have come and gone the odds that 1 particular change outdid those millions is probably a long shot. Where I will disagree with him though is that they don't see massive shifts due to other reasons than personal. They didn't try and get out of WoD as fast as possible because people were leaving because of personal reasons. They got out of it asap, and essentially stopped development on it because they knew people didn't find it fun at all.

The problem with WoD wasn't about design. It was about resource management decision someone on the top made few years back and it backfired at that very moment. They were too slow with new stuff. Yes, it was their fault but it had nothing to do with game design itself.

So yes technically he is correct. However if people unsubbing in mass wasn't seen, you tell me what the heck changed their tune on no-flying so fast? It wasn't because of talk on the forums, they had been getting an ear full of that all expansion and it didn't bother them. So I am gonna call BS that unsubbing on one specific thing can't make an impact. Does it on most things? No that I agree. Does it never make an impact? I'm straight up calling BS on that notion.

What actually has changed about no-flying?

Also, if someone is quitting because of no-flying I would call it pretty silly I won't deny some people do but I won't believe it happens on mass.

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The more efficent way is to not pay them. Most of suggestions get trash-binned pretty fast.

Not true. Have you actually looked at other developers and how they are really not listening to their playerbase?

Not to mention they only read US forums. Eu is ignored.

Who in their right mind takes their ideas to Blizzard forums? There are much better ways to pass those. Blizzard forums are one big mess.

[Deleted]

Nothing new. You just have to follow certain users in this forum for example. There are people crying and complaining that they will unsub since years. Truely funny. Crybabies

[Armourboy]

So you want to tell me that when I say that I personally enjoyed WoD I am somehow wrong?


And how do you know why people quit? You know only of those who expressed it on the forums. You don't know about the majority that didn't.


Cataclysm was losing at the begining pretty fast as well. Also, WoD was massivly hyped and some people hoped for something WoW can never ever give them.


The problem with WoD wasn't about design. It was about resource management decision someone on the top made few years back and it backfired at that very moment. They were too slow with new stuff. Yes, it was their fault but it had nothing to do with game design itself.


What actually has changed about no-flying?

Also, if someone is quitting because of no-flying I would call it pretty silly I won't deny some people do but I won't believe it happens on mass.

What changed about no flying? Are you serious? They came out and announced that flying would not make a return in WoD and all future expansions. A couple of days latter they completely changed that and put out pathfinder. It wasn't due to the forums, people had been giving them hell about no flying for months. So you tell me what made them completely changed their minds?

And I know why people quit. I had 20 people come back for WoD, all of them, every single one left after the first month. Considering we all keep in contact, I knew exactly why they quit. You think they were the only 20 people that quit because WoD stunk? Ok yeah if want to believe that just go right ahead.

Yes Cata lost subs, but Cata lost somewhere in the realm of 1 million subs over a couple of months. They lost 3 times that many in less time with WoD, so if you want to bury your head in the sand and believe it was " personal reasons " you go right ahead. You would be wrong though. WoD may have been overhyped, but if your game can't live it to the hype and people leave, doesn't that mean you screwed the heck up?

You can enjoy and like whatever you like, that doesn't mean that millions of people bailed on an expansion that quickly because of any other reason than it wasn't very good.

[Pann]

It sounds to me as if he is in denial that the changes they make are responsible for causing players to quit and/or the data they collect from people who quit is woefully inadequate.

[Lilija]

What changed about no flying? Are you serious? They came out and announced that flying would not make a return in WoD and all future expansions. A couple of days latter they completely changed that and put out pathfinder. It wasn't due to the forums, people had been giving them hell about no flying for months. So you tell me what made them completely changed their minds?

So they don't stick to retarded ideas. But what it has to do with quitting? They did based on people's feedback on forums - not anyone quitting. It was the same with realID thing and few other things in the past where the idea was so bad that everyone and their dog stood against it.

And I know why people quit. I had 20 people come back for WoD, all of them, every single one left after the first month. Considering we all keep in contact, I knew exactly why they quit. You think they were the only 20 people that quit because WoD stunk? Ok yeah if want to believe that just go right ahead.

Hahahahaha... 20 people you know is a proof of why millions of people are quitting a game? Ok, I'll tell you about the people I know that quit during WoD
- several didn't have time to play anymore
- one wanted to quit for months now and was just looking for a reason (he actually rage quit when someone throw halloween costume on him during raid)
- one guy has returned to WoW after 5 years and figured WoD was not what he expected... plus work (he came back for Legion and quit again)
- the rest is people who always come back at the start of an expantion and then quit after a month or 2 (and they enjoy it like this) ... plus work

Yes Cata lost subs, but Cata lost somewhere in the realm of 1 million subs over a couple of months. They lost 3 times that many in less time with WoD, so if you want to bury your head in the sand and believe it was " personal reasons " you go right ahead. You would be wrong though. WoD may have been overhyped, but if your game can't live it to the hype and people leave, doesn't that mean you screwed the heck up?

Did I say somewhere that WoD didn't have issues? (I might have hinted that those issues didn't affect me personally) Sure it had but they weren't pure design issues - it was their inability to put out content fast enough which was an effect of a bad HR decision few years back (you do understand how mmo developement process works?). But you still cannot say that you know why majority people quit because you have no data to prove that. And there is data that proves that majority of people quits (when you look at whole WoW lifespan) due to reasons not connected to the game at all.

Also people often forget that subs don't really reflect quitting as well as some think. WoW has much bigger issue with new players not starting to play rather than people quitting. WoD was trying to focus on returning players and returning players have one problem ... someone who quit ones will do it again. For stable subs WoW would need influx of fresh blood and that I am afraid is both problem of the gerne as well as the age of the game.

You can enjoy and like whatever you like, that doesn't mean that millions of people bailed on an expansion that quickly because of any other reason than it wasn't very good.

It's fun how judgemental people can with subjective values

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It sounds to me as if he is in denial that the changes they make are responsible for causing players to quit and/or the data they collect from people who quit is woefully inadequate.

So they have some data but they must be wrong.
Forum has no data but they must be right.
Mhm...

Cognitive dissonance

[Osmeric]

People that pay the game with gamecards aren't even asked to leave feedback on why they left, because they do not have a sub.

And now, people who pay with WoW Tokens.

Anyway, I thought GC's comments were a useful window into the reasoning behind decisions that is normally concealed from us outsiders.

[Pua]

No, there really is no ground for debate, as the OP simply made a copy/paste without giving his own thought on the matter.

Here's a novel thought; why don't you add your thoughts?

No?

Too abstract, when you can just moan at a poster who shares something of interest when you've nothing to add yourself?

I'm glad we got to the bottom of that, then.

[ComputerNerd]

Cataclysm heroic dungeons
Battle.net real name display
no-flight
etc.

...made them revert changes pretty fast.

And was that due to player losses, or good arguments posed.
If the lack of flying did lose them that many players, then there would not be a return to gating it.
It undoubtedly lost them some, as would many changes.
But I think the numbers as stated by the players are vastly exaggerated.

The battle.net real names for instance had a very good argument on the privacy side.
People can and have been jerks on facebook etc despite real names.

There can be a huge difference in why a given player leaves.
It may be temporary, it may not be.
It may be due to one reason, or the result of many compounded.

Interesting point he raised about innovation vs preservation.
You can't take a game too far one way without compromising the other.