Is history wrong?

[draynay]

Fun fact, the romans built a pyramid in Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Cestius

It was an architectural fad? Like mission-style architecture, gross.

[GodlyBob]

Because he knows he's wrong and that the pyramids are easier to build than a gothic cathedral. So he focus on the height.

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Fun fact, the romans built a pyramid in Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Cestius

Fun fact 2: a rival culture in teotihuacan built circular pyramids but we're wiped out by a volcano. If they weren't, there's a good chance Mayan and Aztec pyramids would have Round as well.
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Not really, no. The theory comes about from REALLY shaky grounds. Like, "if we imagine that the Pyramids/Sphinx were built 10,000 years before they're supposed to have been built, we can make some neat alignments, so EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG AND THAT'S NOT WISHFUL THINKING" shaky.

The ancient Egyptians didn't record any such stuff in their astronomical texts, so as far as we know it wasn't until the Greeks that it really got identified. Earlier peoples might have noticed precessional drift, if they used an astronomical site long enough, but if they understood what that drift meant, they didn't put it down in any sense that's survived.

Phone corrected "is" as "isn't " >.<

[draynay]

Fun fact 2: a rival culture in teotihuacan built circular pyramids but we're wiped out by a volcano. If they weren't, there's a good chance Mayan and Aztec pyramids would have been circular as well.

Instead, it only inspired Devo.

[Puupi]

Could you give me some examples from SA & Turkey?

In South America, all Mayan, Aztec, Olmec, Inca and cultures preceeding them. Notable places eg. Chichen Itza, Teotihuacan, Tiwanaku.

In Turkey, Göbekli Tepe and Derinkuyu for example.

[Deleted]

It was an architectural fad? Like mission-style architecture, gross.

A crazy tribune of the pleb liked the concept and ordered on his will its construction as his tomb.

[GodlyBob]

In South America, all Mayan, Aztec, Olmec, Inca and cultures preceeding them. Notable places eg. Chichen Itza, Teotihuacan, Tiwanaku.

In Turkey, Göbekli Tepe and Derinkuyu for example.

I might've missed the point here, but are you saying that some cultures who were in close proximity making structures that bear a striking resemblance to one another in both appearance and use us evidence of an ancient seed culture?

[Tierbook]

Well as far as old settlements go, Athens has had a presence since the 11th Millennium BC..... it's been a city since the 6th but who knows how long it had permanent residents for.... at that age in a city like Athens? I can't imagine it'd be easy to track down stuff like that.

[Puupi]

I might've missed the point here, but are you saying that some cultures who were in close proximity making structures that bear a striking resemblance to one another in both appearance and use us evidence of an ancient seed culture?

No, I was just pointing out megalithic sites to him as he appeared to not know of their existence at all.

[Queen of Hamsters]

What does it matter what we KNOW, when people will ignore or even downright DENY it based on personal feelings and beliefs?
I do feel however that "far more advanced" civilizations than our own would've left proper traces on this planet. Just look at what our knowledge of medicine alone has achieved in terms of prolonging human life and securing birthrates.

[Mihalik]

Ah, apologies - I thought you were coming from the other side of that statement. I misunderstood what you were saying, my bad.

I understand the fossil record to a certain degree, and how we can trace it back to the earliest single cell organisms (or at least I think I understand it, lol). How is it we can observe the progression of life, and know that we didn't miss the rise and fall of life forms that could have created (and then lost) a civilization?

I'm asking for my education, just to be clear.

Solid surface: I thought we had tectonic plates going back much further than 300 million years ago - which is where my reasoning for possible civilizations come from. Also, and this is a HORRIBLE source, but a fiction book from Clarke points to the idea of past civilizations on Earth. I know, fiction, but the guy is remarkable in his accuracy on subjects.

Oh no. We had a solid surface for about 3.8 billion-ish years. And life for about 3.5. The 300 million years I was talking about is that intermediate period between those two dates when the planet's surface was chemically extremely active but didn't really have "life", just lots and lots of chemical precursors.

Civilization can develop and possibly fall extremely quickly. Human civilization has only been around for about 12000 years. So it is not completely unreasonable to say that perhaps a civilization developed and completely fell, but it did so before developing metallurgy or advanced technology. Think of something like the Mayans. Or the Indus Valley Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation which were in many ways extremely advanced, yet developed very little in the way of metalworking.

If such an event would have occurred like 250 million years ago (Dino civilization!) there would be very little left of them that wasn't eroded by time. What we would mostly have to go on are fossilized tools and most importantly geological evidence.

You see, civilization to emerge it requires population concentrations, that require agriculture, that requires earthworks, irrigation, deforestation, concentration of livestock etc. all those end up leaving impossible to erase signs.

[Shadowferal]

Civilization can develop and possibly fall extremely quickly. Human civilization has only been around for about 12000 years. So it is not completely unreasonable to say that perhaps a civilization developed and completely fell, but it did so before developing metallurgy or advanced technology. Think of something like the Mayans. Or the Indus Valley Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation which were in many ways extremely advanced, yet developed very little in the way of metalworking.

If such an event would have occurred like 250 million years ago (Dino civilization!) there would be very little left of them that wasn't eroded by time. What we would mostly have to go on are fossilized tools and most importantly geological evidence.

You see, civilization to emerge it requires population concentrations, that require agriculture, that requires earthworks, irrigation, deforestation, concentration of livestock etc. all those end up leaving impossible to erase signs.

*nods*
An intriguing argument.

Humanity is, broadly speaking, 2 million years old. We "woke up" (again broadly speaking) into self-awareness which engendered imagination roughly 50k years ago. Civilization (typically marked by advances in writing and mathematics) is for the sake of argument roughly 10k years old. In a relatively short time we've touched the moon and have a space station in orbit.
Is it possible that some sort of civilization reared up in an earlier geologic era, one that didn't need as much oxygen? In earlier eras that lasted hundreds of millions of years, I think so. It would be nearly alien to human species however.

[Mihalik]

*nods*
An intriguing argument.

Humanity is, broadly speaking, 2 million years old. We "woke up" (again broadly speaking) into self-awareness which engendered imagination roughly 50k years ago. Civilization (typically marked by advances in writing and mathematics) is for the sake of argument roughly 10k years old. In a relatively short time we've touched the moon and have a space station in orbit.
Is it possible that some sort of civilization reared up in an earlier geologic era, one that didn't need as much oxygen? In earlier eras that lasted hundreds of millions of years, I think so. It would be nearly alien to human species however.

Possible? Yes.

Likely? No.

The issue is that it would have had to be some sort of culture that never really did anything large scale, developed no metallurgy, no major earthworks, little to no urbanization and very little agriculture. It would had to be a civilization that also went extinct in its very early development phases.

Even then, we would have pre-civilization hints of culture leading up to the development of civilization, like tool making, like stone tools. The same has happened with humans. We only had civilization for about 12K years, but we have been making and leaving around our tools for 2.8 million years. Technology is a gradual process.

The point is that, it is not completely 100% beyond the realm of possibility, but it is about as likely as a Mars having had intelligent life on it at some point of its existence.

[Shadowferal]

Possible? Yes.

Likely? No.

The issue is that it would have had to be some sort of culture that never really did anything large scale, developed no metallurgy, no major earthworks, little to no urbanization and very little agriculture. It would had to be a civilization that also went extinct in its very early development phases.

Even then, we would have pre-civilization hints of culture leading up to the development of civilization, like tool making, like stone tools. The same has happened with humans. We only had civilization for about 12K years, but we have been making and leaving around our tools for 2.8 million years. Technology is a gradual process.

The point is that, it is not completely 100% beyond the realm of possibility, but it is about as likely as a Mars having had intelligent life on it at some point of its existence.

I have to wonder when the planet was in it's more primordial phase when it was just Pangaea.

Well, the planet has seen a few extinct level events since then. Many of which would have sufficiently wiped out any evidence of any pre-civilizations that might have existed.

[Deleted]

I absolutely understand those buildings exist, and they are great in their own right. But that STILL does not explain how they were the tallest for 4 millenia, sorry. Again for the umpteenth time, try and please understand how long of a time period that is, and then multiply that x5.

Why do you need an explanation? You act like there's some sort of order or conspiracy at work. Other buildings later on were by many standards more advanced and more beautiful. Building giant piles of rocks was a one time thing. It was inspired by their culture and their current means of construction.
More people than the Egyptians built pyramids or pyramid shaped things, but only the Egyptians bothered making them just gigantic. Other nations and cultures made them intricately carved or part of other structures or something greater, like the Ankor Wat.

Your point is irrelevant and ignorant. You've only got hung up on pure size and ignored absolutely everything else.

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I have to wonder when the planet was in it's more primordial phase when it was just Pangaea.

Well, the planet has seen a few extinct level events since then. Many of which would have sufficiently wiped out any evidence of any pre-civilizations that might have existed.

No sentient creatures capable of building have existed prior to humanity. Pangea and humanity are hundreds of millions of years apart.

[Shadowferal]

No sentient creatures capable of building have existed prior to humanity. Pangea and humanity are hundreds of millions of years apart.

No sentient creature...that we know of...or can know of.

[Frontenac]

No sentient creature...that we know of...or can know of.

Well, the day we find the remains of a city, or tools or anything that may denote sentience in a sandstone bed from the Permian period, I will believe there was a civilization before humanity. Until then, that is just idle speculation that rests on... nothing, actually.

The same goes with prehistoric human civilizations that, somehow, would be more advanced than our own. I mean, we are launching spacecrafts in the cosmos. How could an ancient civilization top that? Now again, if they ever find the remains of a locomotive, even powered by steam, in sediments from the neolithic era I could begin to accept the hypothesis of a prehistoric advanced civilization. Until then...

[Shadowferal]

Well, the day we find the remains of a city, or tools or anything that may denote sentience in a sandstone bed from the Permian period, I will believe there was a civilization before humanity. Until then, that is just idle speculation that rests on... nothing, actually.

The same goes with prehistoric human civilizations that, somehow, would be more advanced than our own. I mean, we are launching spacecrafts in the cosmos. How could an ancient civilization top that? Now again, if they ever find the remains of a locomotive, even powered by steam, in sediments from the neolithic era I could begin to accept the hypothesis of a prehistoric advanced civilization. Until then...

I love the imagination that it inspires!

[GodlyBob]

I love the imagination that it inspires!

Wouldn't it be grand if the moon were actually a derigible piloted by an order of sentient voles who had escaped the earth's mighty grip and vowed to never return? Imagine the technology involved!

While certainly on the fringe of POSSIBLE it's not nearly likely enough to entertain as plausible. That's the issue, science can NEVER say this can absolutely not happen. There is always the smallest fraction of a chance that any scientific claim could be false for the simple reason that all claims in science have to be falsifiable. The chances a lot of theories, laws, and prominent hypotheses are utterly wrong is so infinitessimally small, that they are hardly worth considering besides on a purely academic basis. That small spot of uncertainty is where aliens live in anthropology.

[Shadowferal]

Wouldn't it be grand if the moon were actually a derigible piloted by an order of sentient voles who had escaped the earth's mighty grip and vowed to never return? Imagine the technology involved!

You're just posting shit just because...why?

Better yet, don't bother with a response...You just stay in your safe closed box where everything is already figured out for you.

I'll go back to the reason why humanity evolved with an imagination...

[Deleted]

No sentient creature...that we know of...or can know of.

Oh okay so your argument is about imaginary what-if creatures. Right.