Ghostcrawler on unsubbing

[Epicon]

Ghostcrawler is overthinking it. Online video games NEED to be social. That's kinda the whole point. Catering to solo play in an online game is like planting a tree on a yacht and going sailing and then saying the tree is the real point of the going sailing. Sure, many people love trees. But is that really what its about?

Honestly it isn't like that at all, and you make no sense. If something purple is really green, but it turns brown it is really blue. Isn't that how the finest bread in the world is made? That is how it reads, work on your metaphors.

[xanzul]

TL;DR GC advocates Blizzard via saying:
1) Players don't quit due to game design reasons
2) Constant game design changes are better, than keeping the same design


I wouldn't trust him, cuz he was the reason of Cata/MOP fails.

You do realize GC has been scathingly critical of Blizzard since he left right? Oh right sorry...you are one of the aforementioned shitposters.

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Has GC seen unsubscribe form?

I haven't used subscription for years, but last time I did unsubscribe, form asking why I unsubscribed did not include any viable options. It had options that GC mentioned about family/job + stupidest ever options such as "[insert item] is too hard", where [insert item] is something that is very very easy, making those options pointless.

Badly designed questionnaires lead to bad feedback.

Has GC seen unsubscribe form?


I haven't used subscription for years, but last time I did unsubscribe, form asking why I unsubscribed did not include any viable options. It had options that GC mentioned about family/job + stupidest ever options such as "[insert item] is too hard", where [insert item] is something that is very very easy, making those options pointless.


Badly designed questionnaires lead to bad feedback.

So because your reason for quitting isn't similar to others that makes all but your own personal reasons for quitting invalid? Get the fuck over yourself.

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Its not just that, problem is those are the only 2 real options in feedback form. Other options are stupid beyond belief.

You have the option of filling in your own reason and don't give me any bullshit about not enough space in said form. Not one single complaint about this game involves writing a long manifesto and really can be condensed to some very valid salient points that can and do fit in said form. Players are also directed to submitting suggestions for the game using the in game suggestions tool as well and doesn't require quitting the game to use it.

[MoanaLisa]

If design changes don't affect retention, why do they spend the money to make design changes?

Design changes drive retention in fact. MMO's must change to survive. The art is in determining how much and what kind of change is required to freshen the design.

Some work better than others. Some are popular; some are not. But when developers close the door on development and stop changing the game that signals end-of-life has started.

[xanzul]

People that pay the game with gamecards aren't even asked to leave feedback on why they left, because they do not have a sub.

Use the in game suggestions tool. Done.


I'm not saying Blizzard cant improve upon how players give feedback but come on. Most of the reasons players claim for not giving good feedback are absolute bullshit.

[Biggles Worth]

"Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

Dropping a game because of a specific design change (despite what you might read on forums / Reddit) is actually pretty rare"

Everyone I know from my guild that stopped playing, stopped playing due to design changes...... out of touch.

[xanzul]

I love how people try and revise WoD to be " not that bad ". WoD was a disaster. People didn't quit because of personal reasons, people quit because the expansion sucked. How do you know? Unlike previous expansions where numbers slowly dwindled, they pretty much sank like a freaking rock at the end of the first month. They literally lost something like 3 million subs after the first month or two. It was received extremely poor and continued to nose dive. It basically lead Blizzard to stop posting sub numbers.


Look I won't argue that GC isn't right, that over the years that large amounts of people simply stop playing for personal reasons. Considering the millions that have come and gone the odds that 1 particular change outdid those millions is probably a long shot. Where I will disagree with him though is that they don't see massive shifts due to other reasons than personal. They didn't try and get out of WoD as fast as possible because people were leaving because of personal reasons. They got out of it asap, and essentially stopped development on it because they knew people didn't find it fun at all.


So yes technically he is correct. However if people unsubbing in mass wasn't seen, you tell me what the heck changed their tune on no-flying so fast? It wasn't because of talk on the forums, they had been getting an ear full of that all expansion and it didn't bother them. So I am gonna call BS that unsubbing on one specific thing can't make an impact. Does it on most things? No that I agree. Does it never make an impact? I'm straight up calling BS on that notion.

They went from "no flight ever again" to "flight after completing a lengthy list of requirements". That is hardly a complete reversal. This bears out their claim that developers were divided on this issue and in how to address it. Only bs here is more flybabies unable to understand flying was never the end all be all of this game.

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The more efficent way is to not pay them. Most of suggestions get trash-binned pretty fast. Not to mention they only read US forums. Eu is ignored.

Oh enough already. NOTHING said in EU forums is ANYTHING different from Us forums.

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What changed about no flying? Are you serious? They came out and announced that flying would not make a return in WoD and all future expansions. A couple of days latter they completely changed that and put out pathfinder. It wasn't due to the forums, people had been giving them hell about no flying for months. So you tell me what made them completely changed their minds?

And I know why people quit. I had 20 people come back for WoD, all of them, every single one left after the first month. Considering we all keep in contact, I knew exactly why they quit. You think they were the only 20 people that quit because WoD stunk? Ok yeah if want to believe that just go right ahead.

Yes Cata lost subs, but Cata lost somewhere in the realm of 1 million subs over a couple of months. They lost 3 times that many in less time with WoD, so if you want to bury your head in the sand and believe it was " personal reasons " you go right ahead. You would be wrong though. WoD may have been overhyped, but if your game can't live it to the hype and people leave, doesn't that mean you screwed the heck up?

You can enjoy and like whatever you like, that doesn't mean that millions of people bailed on an expansion that quickly because of any other reason than it wasn't very good.

If Blizzard was losing subscriptions that rapidly due to lack of flight exclusively why in the fuck would they change their position of NOT FLIGHT EVER to NO FLIGHT UNTIL ACHIEVEMENTS ARE DONE? Do you fucking idiots seriously not understand how truly asinine this claim is? If the players had Blizzard devs by the balls like flybabies claim wouldn't we have gotten unrestricted flight immediately?

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Hey crybaby be aware that unsubbing doesn't equal quitting the game for good. Not even close. With current development one should stay unsubbed for about one full year after each new expansion. If you don't understand why it just proves what insight you really have about all these people you proclaim crybabies. Be glad people take the responsibility to do anything they can to encourage a better development.

A large number of forum malcontents on the official forums have been claiming to quit for years and are still there and have actually been called out repeatedly for it. A certain forum regular has posted no less than 3 different "i quit" threads in the past 6 months and yet doesn't leave or quit. They are actively playing the game and using that game's forums. So no I'm sorry but most people who make a big show of quitting Wow never actually do or at worst they quit a month or so and come back and start up the nonsense again.

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It sounds to me as if he is in denial that the changes they make are responsible for causing players to quit and/or the data they collect from people who quit is woefully inadequate.

Yeah sure he is in denial. It is almost like clockwork that you start spamming your stupid bullshit on the forums every single quarterly shareholders meeting.

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For a time "Will of the Forsaken Nerf" was an available reason when you cancelled your subscription. It never accomplished anything, but it would seem enough people were writing it down that it had to be acknowledged by Blizzard.

It is an example of one of many times where players went into absolute hysterics over a game play change. Doesn't exactly curry favor for the complainers.

[Deleted]

That would explain why many people quit in WoD. Because there were many things to do and they did not have time to play the game, oh wait....

I also thought about wod as an outlier, but its not as clear as that aswell. WoD had i think a pretty massive advertising, i remember alot of things 2 of which are:garrosh axe statue in the center of a big city (or multiple cities) in US and the fact my aunt told me back then: ''hey did you see that warlords game? is that like the thing you are playing?''

So i knew if my aunt heard/saw it in cyprus they threw extra money and efford in advertising.
And what happened is i think WoD attracted quite some new players and also brought back some old players who had quit, much more than other expacks (anything after wotlk). So that creates a whole new dynamic about the number of people who left, cus we just dont know, was the drop in subs due to the increased ppl joining leaving soon after? Or a combination of that and all the other reasons we know including the infamous cyclical nature.

[xanzul]

He does not. he is not part of the dev team and certainly does not reflect all of the player base.

Fine. He doesnt know why players are quitting "now". happy? The fact remains that when he was at Blizzard he saw this data over a period of years and more importantly has seen similar data in a different genre of online gaming. In short? I will take what he says as valid information rather than pretending shitposters here on this site have any actual knowledge of anything.

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Such arguments were made and ignored. The change came only after it was implemented and some of them were defending it on the forums as it happened, since they doxxed themself with that people send tons of pizzas to one of those people's home. Only after that consequence did they reconsider. Essentially they need to get wrecked to change, talk doesn't help.

Regarding Ghostcrawlers post - just sounds like "please don't quit when we turn it to shit".

I'm sorry i was unaware LoL was losing players?

[Deleted]

pretty certain that some random game developer doesn't give a toss that I have unsubbed due changes in the game I Personally don't like.

[FelPlague]

If it seems like this is "incomplete" it's mostly because GC is writing this from the frame of reference of League, not WoW. He brings up great points, especially about how existing players sometimes may feel alienated by the direction the game has taken. It also emphasizes one of the points I've made repeatedly up in the endless "{x} feature killed the game" threads which pop up around here: Players leave the game for personal reasons far more frequently than because of specific changes made to the game.

Additionally, it would also seem a core philosophy of his is that stagnation is far more dangerous for a product than innovation and I'd think his track record proves there's at least a bit of cadence in this theory.

^^^^^^

everyone complains that game companies make nothing new, and no innovation, and how call of duty and assasins creed are bullshit cause its just more of the same thing, nothing new


meanwhile people like mario and pokemon, and scream about how super amazing the games are and how they are allways fun....


people want more content faster ,they hate content drouts, meanwhile an amount of the player base who are quitting wow cause there isnt enough to do.. are now playing servers that will soon hit a point where they will stop... and never release new content... and the content they are doing they have allready done hundreds of times before...





you can never please everyone, so you must go for the majority...

and no, not the vocal minority

[xanzul]

I think the main here is people on MMO associates the decline of WoW to all sort of changes made to the game. LFD, LFR, Flying, Dailies, Raids etc.

However, his first comment is that the data he had seen suggest the people who leave due to directionally change in the game is actually very rare, or there is insufficient evidence of that. Most are due not enough time to play or people have just moved on.

So the arguments raging here about flying, LFR, Vanilla wil, according to the data seen, will not return WoW to the former glory its supporters are claiming it would.

The people here associate community building game changes with said community falling apart because they were no longer able to restrict the "unwashed" from doing said content. I'm sorry but those kinds of people can turn communities into shit rapidly and other players are just fed up with it. LFD and LFR and cross realm zones and any other tech involved in wow has been built to give power to players in how they do content rather than be arbitrarily barred from it because reasons.

[Deleted]

what he writes definitely sounds true for when he was still involved with wow, but that was before "cyclical subs" became a thing. im sure IRL moving on is still a major reason people quit, but i think other reasons are starting to grow in percentage and will continue to do so over time.

[SirCowdog]

Fine. He doesnt know why players are quitting "now". happy? The fact remains that when he was at Blizzard he saw this data over a period of years and more importantly has seen similar data in a different genre of online gaming. In short? I will take what he says as valid information rather than pretending shitposters here on this site have any actual knowledge of anything.?

I mostly agree with what you just said. GC is in a position to have had access to more information that we do as players. The only question I have is how relevant that information is in light of a more fundamental change to the game, such as the removal of flying and the more facebook-oriented gameplay of WoD. People might not quit over smaller changes, like how their individual favorite class plays, but nothing on the level of a the shitstorm that the flying issue caused happened while he was still at Blizzard.

Now, before you go nuts on me, I'm not trying to claim anything specific about flying or non-flying. There's a few threads already dedicated to that. I'm just pointing out that while GC might be correct within the context of his experience, there might be things OUTSIDE his experience that have happened in WoW since he left for LOL.

[Bapestar]

Typical developer arrogance. People unsub because they have jobs and and cant spend time on the game anymore or because their friends left the game. Their friends must of left because they got a job or something. You know the game is 10 years old. That's why they left, not because of something we did.

Something about becoming a game developer on wow makes these people delusional. Must be a cultural thing.

So nobody leaves because they don't enjoy the game or dislike a change???

[FelPlague]

So nobody leaves because they don't enjoy the game or dislike a change???

yes they do
but that amount is extreamly minor
and its not usually because of that
its because they have so little time to play, or their friends dont play, and thats the real reason, but that thing is the straw that broke the camels back, and anything else woulda been enough to make them quit


idk if you know, but it is EXTREAMLY rare that a player is like "WOW I LOVE WOW, i spend 24/7 playing it, its the best game out there its so fun omfg i love it" hey guys were gunna make flying an acheiv based thing you will get half way through the expansion "I FUCKING HATE WOW, NO FLYING? I QUIT"


its a hundred things they dont like about the game, that makes them quit, but the one to break the load is the one they blame
very VERY few players go from "im loving this game" to "i quit it sucks" because of 1 feature...
and tracking down all these features is impossible because its different for each player

that doesent happen... and if it does its 1/100000


not all players do lfr, not all players do norm, not all players do heroic, not all players do mythic, not all players do pet battles, not all players do casual pvp, etc etc etc

but all players have a limited amount of time, and they have friends who play the game or they dont... so of corse that will be the biggest factor

[Bapestar]

yes they do
but that amount is extreamly minor
and its not usually because of that
its because they have so little time to play, or their friends dont play, and thats the real reason, but that thing is the straw that broke the camels back, and anything else woulda been enough to make them quit


idk if you know, but it is EXTREAMLY rare that a player is like "WOW I LOVE WOW, i spend 24/7 playing it, its the best game out there its so fun omfg i love it" hey guys were gunna make flying an acheiv based thing you will get half way through the expansion "I FUCKING HATE WOW, NO FLYING? I QUIT"


its a hundred things they dont like about the game, that makes them quit, but the one to break the load is the one they blame
very VERY few players go from "im loving this game" to "i quit it sucks" because of 1 feature...
and tracking down all these features is impossible because its different for each player

that doesent happen... and if it does its 1/100000


not all players do lfr, not all players do norm, not all players do heroic, not all players do mythic, not all players do pet battles, not all players do casual pvp, etc etc etc

but all players have a limited amount of time, and they have friends who play the game or they dont... so of corse that will be the biggest factor

You admit its true then say its usually not.......You cant just say, the majority or all quit because x reason.

[FelPlague]

You admit its true then say its usually not.......You cant just say, the majority or all quit because x reason.

read the rest of the post...

read even ghost crawlers post, yes people quit because of X but its extreamly low, and most of those people artn even actually quitting because of that

[Deleted]

read the rest of the post...

read even ghost crawlers post, yes people quit because of X but its extreamly low, and most of those people artn even actually quitting because of that

He was asked about statistical data and how about they handled it.

Basically GCs answer could be reduced to "nope, the data we get from players who fill out the form is not even close to being worth be be evaluating it". And he is clever enough to net get into personal interpretations which is basically what 90% of the people demand on those questions he answers.

[manypillars]

People that pay the game with gamecards aren't even asked to leave feedback on why they left, because they do not have a sub.

And now, people who pay with WoW Tokens.

Anyway, I thought GC's comments were a useful window into the reasoning behind decisions that is normally concealed from us outsiders.

People who buy time blocks of game time off Blizzard's own store aren't asked either.

One of the reasons I stopped subbing, aside from Blizzard double charging me, was to avoid that stupid questionnaire that you had to complete in order to stop your subscription. Last time I did you were unable to end it until you completed to the form. An early version of that exit exam let you end your subscription just by saying you no longer had time to play. Otherwise you had to go on to fill out the rest of the form. I can't remember when it changed (Cata maybe?), but I'd suggest that the number of people clicked 'not enough time' just to be allowed to stop their subscription without having to be bothered by filling out the rest of the test wasn't trivial. I'd bet if it's the same form I saw in Cata that a number of people just click 'N/A' down the line to get out of there sooner too.

[Sansnom]

Ghostcrawler is overthinking it. Online video games NEED to be social. That's kinda the whole point.

Well, that is one of the principle of attraction of online games. People are social. I think they are. They just don't need to be social to every person they meet in the a group settings like dungeons and raids.

Not talking to you does not mean that person is being anti-social. That person is just not talking to a random stranger. If people takes offences, then I wonder who actually have a social interaction problem.

Catering to solo play in an online game is like planting a tree on a yacht and going sailing and then saying the tree is the real point of the going sailing. Sure, many people love trees. But is that really what its about?

An online game just implies lots of players playing at the same time. It does not imply it is a 100% team base game. If it is, it would be more than just a MMO.

You think a 100% MMO that requires groups for every part of the game would succeed?