Oklahoma : Women who want an abortion face needing the father’s written consent

[Total Crica]

I don't see how the right to at least know about the fetus existence is too much to ask for.

The Supreme Court saw spousal notification requirements as placing an undue burden on women who may fear for their safety, or that of their children.

[Swiftshadow]

The Supreme Court saw spousal notification requirements as placing an undue burden on women who may fear for their safety, or that of their children.

Such dangers are only applicable to women who are currently not on amicable terms with the father, or worst case scenario have a restraining order against him.

What if both the father and mother are still lovers, or even friends?

[s_bushido]

Still waiting for a decent solution by him though. Oh wait. To him no problem exists in the first place to even require a solution.

Yes, this is exactly where the anger comes from. The "problem" is that men don't have as much stake in a pregnancy as women do by the simple fact of biology. And the only solution that can be offered to fix this "problem" is to dictate what women are allowed to do with their bodies.

You can forgive the flippant responses to your counseling idea, when in the past this "counseling" has been used as little more than a tool for pro-life propaganda and an attempt to guilt women into making the "right" choice.

You can also forgive the flippant responses when every single time the issue comes up, some percentage of the responses will invariably "the whores should just keep their legs shut if they know what's good for them."

In short, your attempt at being reasonable (whether feigned or not) about a subject like this is going to be met with skepticism.

[Total Crica]

Such dangers are only applicable to women who are currently not on amicable terms with the father, or worst case scenario have a restraining order against him.

What if both the father and mother are still lovers, or even friends?

She is the sole decider of if she feels safe enough to inform the father.

[Swiftshadow]

Yes, this is exactly where the anger comes from. The "problem" is that men don't have as much stake in a pregnancy as women do by the simple fact of biology. And the only solution that can be offered to fix this "problem" is to dictate what women are allowed to do with their bodies.

You can forgive the flippant responses to your counseling idea, when in the past this "counseling" has been used as little more than a tool for pro-life propaganda and an attempt to guilt women into making the "right" choice.

You can also forgive the flippant responses when every single time the issue comes up, some percentage of the responses will invariably "the whores should just keep their legs shut if they know what's good for them."

In short, your attempt at being reasonable (whether feigned or not) about a subject like this is going to be met with skepticism.

Of course if responses to me are less than tactful or even rude, I will get pissed off.

However I will still persist to reply with a reasonable tone because if I do not, then I am doing the same thing they are. Then the possibility of a meaningful discussion being productive or fruitful drastically decreases.

Does this count as feigned attempt at being reasonable? I hope not lol!

[Total Crica]

waiting for a decent solution

A solution to what?

[Torto]

It's a woman's body, so it's a woman's choice. Just as it should be a man's choice whether he pays child support or not.

[Swiftshadow]

A solution to what?

I have long established your stance on this matter.

Since you apparently do not feel that it is a problem, no solution forthcoming from you is necessary.

Like I mentioned much earlier in my replies.

We can agree to disagree. Nothing more.

[Total Crica]

I have long established your stance on this matter.

Since you apparently do not feel that it is a problem, no solution forthcoming from you is necessary.

Like I mentioned much earlier in my replies.

We can agree to disagree. Nothing more.

Disagree on what?

[Swiftshadow]

Disagree on what?

Me - Men do have a right (however small or seemingly insignificant) to at least the knowledge of the fetus existence, if not the fate of it.

You - Men do not have any such rights. Women can do whatever they want with their bodies. Men should just suck it up.

This?

[Total Crica]

Me - Men do have a right (however small or seemingly insignificant) to at least the knowledge of the fetus existence, if not the fate of it.

You - Men do not have any such rights. Women can do whatever they want with their bodies. Men should just suck it up.

This?

That is not a disagreement, that is me correcting you about what men's right's currently are in the USA.

Men should "suck it up" instead of force women to risk their health and well-being based on what men want them to choose.

Just as women should "suck it up" instead of force men to risk their health and well-being based on what women want them to choose.

I am an equal opportunity "suck it up" kind of person.

[Swiftshadow]

That is not a disagreement, that is me correcting you about what men's right's currently are.

And I am trying to tell you what men's rights should be (or could be).

I think the conversation between you and me should conclude here. Since no middle ground can apparently be found in it.

Allow more space for others to post their thoughts.

[Total Crica]

And I am trying to tell you what men's rights should be (or could be).

I think the conversation between you and me should conclude here. Since no middle ground can apparently be found in it.

Allow more space for others to post their thoughts.

No middle ground can be found once you give up, correct.

[Swiftshadow]

No middle ground can be found once you give up, correct.

Give up what?

[Total Crica]

Give up what?

The conversation.

[Swiftshadow]

The conversation.

I'm ending the conversation with you, then yes.

[Total Crica]

I'm ending the conversation with you, then yes.

Your choice. I will "suck it up".

[kail]

It's a woman's body, so it's a woman's choice. Just as it should be a man's choice whether he pays child support or not.

Simple enough.

[Ishayu]

Nnno, a marriage is not a prenup...

Yes, it is. A marriage is a contract and it has many legal implications. Originally, marriage started as a contract between a man and a woman designed to help them bring up children. What comes out of this contract is called a family. It placed certain burdens and responsibility on both husband and wife to make sure that they would try to stay together and bring their child up in a stable home. Depending on country, it can merge your economies, give you massive tax breaks (sadly these days it's often the other way around), split the ownership of your home, creates a legal framework about who has what rights to the child, and so on.

We can certainly argue that many of the contractual obligations are now obsolete. It is where the notions of stay-at-home mother comes from, and also the place where men go to become beasts of burden. That discrepancy is what created the wage gap as well as well, though it should be noted that women were and still are the primary spenders.

I can see the arguments in favour of making the contract more even, or at least allowing some additional wiggle room on how you do things. It did get too traditional and restrictive in the past.

But what people like you have done is argued that this contract should be opened up to people that don't even fit the definition of what it is supposed to do, and then you water it down to the point where it doesn't do much at all except place burdens upon the man and rights upon the woman, and I really dislike that a lot, because it means that I now have to make all this paperwork on the side, and in some cases I cannot even enter into the agreements that used to exist in traditional families at all.

Ok, whatever you say. Don't give a shit if you approve of me and your horribly strawman'd perception of my general behavioural pattern, but let's move on... There are women who care about traditional family values. Find one of those. Use the internet, search for sites they tend to be on. Some of them are probably religious, could start there...

I've noticed that pattern, too. I'm not religious, though, but I think I could live with that.

Different perspectives. Either way, electing Trump was a huge mistake, and certainly won't help the decline... And why? I don't see anything wrong with them from what I know...would you rather it be like India?

I don't think the proposed legislation is the way to go, either. I find it too extreme. All I'm arguing is that something had to be done.

If she did it within voluntary legal abortion limitations, then that's her right to do... Yeah, it's incredibly scummy, and she's a cunt, but it's her right. If not she should be punished in accordance to whatever law applies.

WHY is it her right, though? I find it absolutely appauling that she can even do that and I'm just supposed to suck it up.

You know that male suicide rates are 3-4 times higher than that of women? Do you wanna know why? This is a good place to start looking, let me assure you.

A lot of humans are wankers, a lot aren't...so? I don't have to approve of people and love them for being scum, but I can't impede on their rights. Neither can you.

I can't impede on anybody's rights, but I can say that I don't think killing your unborn child should be a right at all. This is a policy discussion, not a legal one. My position is that it should be a very rarely given privilege granted only in circumstances where carrying the child to term can be proven to cause intense physical or emotional damage to the child or to the mother and father.

No, within legal abortion limitations, the chances of a fetus surviving just being severed from the woman is so slim they're virtually inexistant. The fetus is not a human being, it's not a person, as it doesn't have a brain that can support that, that's just biology. You can read this on wikipedia, but some of the words are medi-speak, so read it slowly...

Incorrect. 3rd term abortions are frequently carried out in the USA, and virtually all of those babies can survive outside the womb.

But even if it couldn't, I find the notion that you get your rights through passing through a vagina head first to be preposterous.

You should go to India. I think you'll like it there. Or Russia.

None of these places have the values I seek. The west did until very recently, however. I suggest you educate yourself on the culture of India or Russia before making such preposterous statements.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

-snip-

Why don't you find a lady with your very same values, that way you win. You can force her to get your permission to get medical treatments.

And then you can let any other person live their lives how they see fit, considering, you know, it doesn't hurt you at all.

Also- we will need some citation on your abortion claims. Everything I see on abortions being carried out that late show figures at around 1% .. and I'm sure those are for medical purposes.