Ghostcrawler on unsubbing

[FelPlague]

and then left AGAIN. another point that tends to be ignored as extremely relevant.

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no it was flying. they still WANT to play but vote with their wallets. blizzard made a game decision that they dont agree with. simple as that. not saying i 100% share their ideals, but who am i to say that what they want to pay for is wrong because of their reasoning?

so if they added flying back in you would play forever, and you were perfectly fine with playing, perfectly happy, and never even thought of quitting, till they removed flying?

[Puupi]

*snip*

The issue here isn't me fathoming or accepting that people quit for family reasons. Or doing that for recurring times. I've done that myself, too.

However, what I argue is that it can't be the vast majority of quitters and people quitting for any other reasons that family/time to be a small minority like GC said. Especially when it's plain obvious like WoD when 70% of players just suddenly quit.

[MoanaLisa]

I'm not sure how effective it would be for him to try and talk about those 5 whys.

Probably not.

"FUCK YOU, THAT'S WHY" isn't very instructive.

With some of the moronic things I've seen over the years I suspect the second why is about as far as it would go.

[Fabinas]

Yes i know, already mentioned that on one of my previous posts. That even makes things worse. Claiming stuff, claiming he has seen the proof, does not want to debate the proof, cannot present the proof. Sorry, won't take his word for it. His argument is too biased.

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Who the fuck do you think you are to "explain" anything to anyone? Their opinion of the game is just as valid as yours. Get over yourself.

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Blizzard routinely attributes game design changes to player feedback. What exactly would they get out of hiding that?

Game changes is one things, especially when already asking for feedback. Here, we are talking FORCED changes because of players unsubbing. See Blizzard's revert of no flight ever. Those things hurt a company and the professional rep of their devs a lot.

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Yeah no. Many forum regulars on the official forums have provided screenshots of when their accounts expire and yet magically their account remained active past that date and they continued playing the game and posting in the forums.

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It isn't an opinion. He saw the data on what players said their reasons for leaving are. No where did he say there were no other reasons players left just that for the ones that did leave a reason most of them did so due to lack of time or friends in game.

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Why would GC do "PR" for a company he no longer works for?

And before you trot out the tired claim that developers never speak badly of companies they no longer work for out of fear for the future of their career, many devs have slammed previous employers including Blizzard.

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And if GC had provided numbers or any form of proof you and the rest of the haters would still be claiming he is lying.

As someone else said earlier in the thread none of us have ever had access to that kind of information whereas GC as a former Blizzard employee and as a current Riot employee does have access to it.

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Those of you making this claim do realize your position on the matter is no stronger or compelling than GC's right?

When an argument is presented by an objective third party it has more credibility than stated by a biased one. GC is by definition biased, because he still works in the gaming industry and he wouldnt do himself or any of his current or former colleagues a favor admitting a decision was reverted due to player pressure through unsubbing. Now if this argument was presented by a journalist with some numbers, i'd be more than willing to discuss it. Now i'm not.

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So now he is lying about seeing this data? Get the fuck out of here.

Noone has to lie. All they have to do is present numbers in a certain way. For example picking a certain period of player loss instead of another. Imagine we had the number of the unsubbing of players between the announcement of "no flight anymore" on WoW and the announcement of the pathfinder compromise. No dev would ever use those numbers to make a point about players leaving cause personal reasons. But numbers of unsubbing through the year content draughts of last tier of MoP and WoD could easily be attributed to those reasons.

Also, what data did GC is referring to? WoW, LoL? At which span of time? "I was in position to see the data, so i know" does not make ANY claim attributed to those data TRUE. Only if presented ALONG with the data. Maybe he's not lying, but i'm sure if he was ever forced to present those data, don't be folled that they weren't gonna be cherrypicked to prove his arguments. Statistics. The science that makes the numbers lie.

[Relapses]

Yes i know, already mentioned that on one of my previous posts. That even makes things worse. Claiming stuff, claiming he has seen the proof, does not want to debate the proof, cannot present the proof. Sorry, won't take his word for it. His argument is too biased.

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Game changes is one things, especially when already asking for feedback. Here, we are talking FORCED changes because of players unsubbing. See Blizzard's revert of no flight ever. Those things hurt a company and the professional rep of their devs a lot.

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When an argument is presented by an objective third party it has more credibility than stated by a biased one. GC is by definition biased, because he still works in the gaming industry and he wouldnt do himself or any of his current or former colleagues a favor admitting a decision was reverted due to player pressure through unsubbing. Now if this argument was presented by a journalist with some numbers, i'd be more than willing to discuss it. Now i'm not.

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Noone has to lie. All they have to do is present numbers in a certain way. For example picking a certain period of player loss instead of another. Imagine we had the number of the unsubbing of players between the announcement of "no flight anymore" on WoW and the announcement of the pathfinder compromise. No dev would ever use those numbers to make a point about players leaving cause personal reasons. But numbers of unsubbing through the year content draughts of last tier of MoP and WoD could easily be attributed to those reasons.

Also, what data did GC is referring to? WoW, LoL? At which span of time? "I was in position to see the data, so i know" does not make ANY claim attributed to those data TRUE. Only if presented ALONG with the data. Maybe he's not lying, but i'm sure if he was ever forced to present those data, don't be folled that they weren't gonna be cherrypicked to prove his arguments. Statistics. The science that makes the numbers lie.

You keep mentioning that we need to see the data he's referring to in order to take him seriously. We'll never see that information so please quit referring to it in a way that makes it seem quantifiable. You also keep droning on and on about how he still has stake in the industry which motivates him to lie but if you've read his other tweets and AMAs, you'd see that he is very quick to own up to mistakes and even at times besmirch his previous employer.

It really boils down to whether you want to believe what he's saying or not. You clearly don't for what I perceive to be extremely shitty preconceived notions but you're welcome to have an opinion on the matter. Personally, I think a guy who has proven repeatedly that he can successfully be a driving force in the MMO gaming industry is far more believable than the angry, meandering ramblings of some random dude on MMO-C.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Damajin]

I'm going to unsub if the loading bar freeze doesn't get fixed, having to close out and restart everything 5-10 times everytime I play is making me not want to play.

[Mormolyce]

I pretty much suspected all of the thing he said were the case.

Not really much ground for debate here...

*Cue 13 pages of debate*

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I'm going to unsub if the loading bar freeze doesn't get fixed, having to close out and restart everything 5-10 times everytime I play is making me not want to play.

Haven't had that one in years.

[Direpenguin]

No, there really is no ground for debate, as the OP simply made a copy/paste without giving his own thought on the matter.

So you're incapable of having an opinion, without first having someone else give theirs so you can agree or disagree with that?

[Mormolyce]

that is not 1 thing making you quit though again, did you really quit JUST BECAUSE OF FLYING or did you quit because X Y Z A B C D E F G but flying was what finally made you give in?

Honestly, I don't believe people who say "I quit because <insert very specific game preference/issue here>". Maybe they think they did, but really it's just one thing to point at and they were probably just over the game in general.

[Damajin]

I pretty much suspected all of the thing he said were the case.



*Cue 13 pages of debate*

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Haven't had that one in years.

You're lucky, it's been a pretty serious deal since Legion dropped, they were taking submissions on peoples' computer specs and such awhile back to supposedly come up with a fix but it's still happening. Daily for me, who knows with others.

[Sansnom]

Noone has to lie. All they have to do is present numbers in a certain way.

Which is not going to happen.

Also, what data did GC is referring to? WoW, LoL? At which span of time? "I was in position to see the data, so i know" does not make ANY claim attributed to those data TRUE. Only if presented ALONG with the data. Maybe he's not lying, but i'm sure if he was ever forced to present those data, don't be folled that they weren't gonna be cherrypicked to prove his arguments. Statistics. The science that makes the numbers lie.

So, you want to see the data. But at the same you claim the data to be lies? You claim would cherry pick data to support his argument. What is stopping you doing so since you refuse his presentation? Your view of statistics is already making your interpretation to be unacceptable.

Statistics. The science of reading and understanding the data. Not making the numbers work for you. There is another name for that. It can be called propaganda.

[SirCowdog]

Honestly, I don't believe people who say "I quit because <insert very specific game preference/issue here>". Maybe they think they did, but really it's just one thing to point at and they were probably just over the game in general.

And what about players who quit and are waiting to resub or buy Legion when flying is available again? I think that assuming you know the reasons why someone else quit better than they do isn't very good basis for a discussion.

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Which is not going to happen.



So, you want to see the data. But at the same you claim the data to be lies? You claim would cherry pick data to support his argument. What is stopping you doing so since you refuse his presentation? Your view of statistics is already making your interpretation to be unacceptable.

Statistics. The science of reading and understanding the data. Not making the numbers work for you. There is another name for that. It can be called propaganda.

I think it's less about the data being false, and more about the data not being fully complete. The entire discussion centers around GC's claims of why people generally quit playing WoW. But he wasn't around for the shitstorm of WoD to see the data from that time period, so his info, while correct in the terms it was couched in, might not be as relevant today, given the more recent rollercoaster state of the game's population.

The entire mess is one giant appeal to authority. "GC said this, so it must be true". And while I respect GC a hell of a lot more than most of the other WoW devs, the way people are inevitably going to use his original quote out of context is not going to be good.

[Grofatso]

Honestly, I don't believe people who say "I quit because <insert very specific game preference/issue here>". Maybe they think they did, but really it's just one thing to point at and they were probably just over the game in general.

"You think you do... but you don't!"

Gaze too long into the Blizzard, and the Blizzard gazes back at you.

I could have quit for many reasons that accumulated to a breaking point. But I ended up quiting over one reason that even alone would have been enough to tip the scale for me.

I'm not over the game as such though, I'm just over Blizzard. I enjoy Vanilla more Than legion. Go figure.

[Mormolyce]

And what about players who quit and are waiting to resub or buy Legion when flying is available again? I think that assuming you know the reasons why someone else quit better than they do isn't very good basis for a discussion.

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I think it's less about the data being false, and more about the data not being fully complete. The entire discussion centers around GC's claims of why people generally quit playing WoW. But he wasn't around for the shitstorm of WoD to see the data from that time period, so his info, while correct in the terms it was couched in, might not be as relevant today, given the more recent rollercoaster state of the game's population.

The entire mess is one giant appeal to authority. "GC said this, so it must be true". And while I respect GC a hell of a lot more than most of the other WoW devs, the way people are inevitably going to use his original quote out of context is not going to be good.

I don't believe it for a second, frankly.

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"You think you do... but you don't!"

Gaze too long into the Blizzard, and the Blizzard gazes back at you.

Mmm, it's more like I think people talk a lot of shit on forums. And aren't very introspective.

[Grofatso]

I don't believe it for a second, frankly.

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Mmm, it's more like I think people talk a lot of shit on forums. And aren't very introspective.

Yet you presume you have the power to see the truth these people themselves do not? It's cool that you can do all that introspection for others, if it even can be called introspection when an external person - nay, a force - does it for them.

You must be really powerful. Or just projecting a lot.

[Deleted]

Does this idiot realize people choose the "don't have time" option because it's the quickest way to unsub without being nagged further as to why?

....

Im pretty sure you dont have to say anything if you dont want to... when i unsubbed in wod i think? i didnt say anything just ignored the page found somewhere a continue button and thats it.

[MasterOfNone]

that is not 1 thing making you quit though again, did you really quit JUST BECAUSE OF FLYING or did you quit because X Y Z A B C D E F G but flying was what finally made you give in?

im pretty sure i made it clear. not sure why you cant understand

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so if they added flying back in you would play forever, and you were perfectly fine with playing, perfectly happy, and never even thought of quitting, till they removed flying?

why is it "me"? i made examples of people i know, and also said i dont agree with them 100%. what dont you get?

[xZerocidex]

The more efficent way is to not pay them. Most of suggestions get trash-binned pretty fast. Not to mention they only read US forums. Eu is ignored.

Agreed, ppl have an unhealthy attachment to this game,

Take the Hunter forums for example over at bnet, numerous ppl(Not saying that there won't complaints.) complains about how the class is in Legion and is unhappy with how it plays but yet pays them 15$ dollars to play it. Add to the fact that they got a Let's Talk thread that still didn't help with player feedback.

I honestly think unsubbing is the only effective method to get the point across to the devs because let's be real here... if they're getting your money and you're still unhappy with a design why would they care to change it in the first place?

[SirCowdog]

I don't believe it for a second, frankly.

Which part? That people aren't waiting for flight to buy legion? Or that they quit over no-flying in the first place?

I think that if you're not even going to be open to what other people think, then there's not much reason to read the forums in the first place.

[WowIsDead64]

Why would GC do "PR" for a company he no longer works for?

And before you trot out the tired claim that developers never speak badly of companies they no longer work for out of fear for the future of their career, many devs have slammed previous employers including Blizzard.

He advocates all developers, not Blizzard only, including himself and his current company. I guess, initial question was about LOL - not about Wow.