Fire ST buffs expected soon now that the world first race is over

[Xetenor]

I've been maxed out on fire for a while now and with no bracers still since legion launch (not that it will really make much of a difference anyway), I am tempted to either re-roll into fury warrior, trying out frost (most likely not), or maybe ret pally. I am not expecting fire to go get any better at all until next expansion (if even then). Blizzard has stated very strongly in class development forum that they are happy with the state of class balance and they will not change it in 7.2 and further most likely.

There is realy no point in playing fire really anymore for me with melee just dominating. Though it looks like from warcraft logs that frost does well, I rarely ever see any frost mages in any M+ or even raids that do actually really good dps. Are there just barely any frost mages and the logs that we see are from those that are getting godlike RNG/procs or something? I know in mythic level nighthold from warcraftlogs, frost looks pretty good but there are barely much guilds doing mythic nighthold. We are just starting mythic nighthold this week now so I dunno what to do. I am literally stuck deciding what to do and have lost interest to play really sadly. It was so tough to choose a spec/class to stick to during beginning of legion. Wish I stuck to my initial choice of fury warrior.

[D3athsting]

Reports from 2nigh fun en run:
*first bosses tried arcane*
Krosus 526k 83%, 8/13 dps (100k behind rogue)
Augur 565k 89%, 6/13 dps (100k behind rogue)
Botanist 650k 83% 7/13 dps (280k behind spriest)
Guldan 454k 75% 7/13 dps (90k behind rogue)

all i can say is fuck blizzard and fuck whoever is at class balance, this guy should be reassigned to toilet cleaning

[Extremity]

DH along with just about every melee are OP, only chance fire has is AoE and even then melee are right there

You mention crazy burst, ours was nuked with 7.1.5 and not fully compensated. Watch any fire mage, after combust we exist purely on RNG. Mostly getting HU procs. So RNG to get a crit to generate a HU proc then same RNG for your instant Pyro to crit and actually do decent damage. It is why our sustain sucks, and therefore our DPS is signifiicantly below melee

Over 85% of Nighthold best I can hope for is to be 5-6 on DPS charts, never a chance at top 3. You on the other hand have a chance every fight to finish top 3. That is all we are asking, actually make it possible for a pure DPS class to compete for top 3 on 75% of the fights.

First of all, I really think the whole "pure dps" thing needs to be let go. I don't think that when a class has nothing but DPS specs it should automatically mean each one should always be top 3, not do I think that's a largely shared mindset anymore. I think having three DPS specs should mean it's more important that each one is unique and stands out in its own way, but not that each one needs to be parsing #1 on a majority of fights. I agree that at least one per class should be high-performing, but considering specs like Ret... I don't think being "pure" automatically means that "non-pure" should never be as good. I also think specs that perform towards the top of the spectrum should be more difficult to play. I don't consider Fire Mage to have one of the more complex rotations, and I honestly think that of your 3 specs, whichever has the higher skillcap should have the highest DPS potential.

That aside, there's nothing special about Mages in regards to other classes. Every class is asking to be able to be in the top 3 on most fights, whether they are pure or not. It's just impossible - you can't have everybody be top 3 on most fights. The most you can hope for is they're all relatively close on DPS, but even then they're not all going to be top 3 aside from there literally being an eight-way tie. I see a lot of players who are upset when they're #6 on DPS, even if there's only a 1% difference between them and the #3 player.

Again, I'm not saying I disagree that Fire needs help. Honestly, I feel like the whole Hot Streak system is FAR too heavily relied on. It seems like they took something that should (and perhaps was even originally intended to) have played more of a secondary role within the spec. I feel like Fire should have it's primary rotation, whatever that is, with the Hot Streak system being a bonus proc on top of it. Completely less reliance on crit as a secondary stat, perhaps having Mastery or Haste being your best (I don't know what your Mastery is, but you get what I'm saying). Then, in addition to whatever your regular playstyle it is, now and then you get a Hot Streak proc. I feel like it would be a lot better (and a lot easier to balance) if you did more damage baseline, ran with less crit baseline, had only one ability that was a guaranteed crit, and thus had less Hot Streak procs. If a Fire Mage did great damage passively and then on top of that proc'd Hot Streak on a crit, getting that free cast from a second crit would occur less often but would be genuinely extra damage. Instead, you guys are completely balanced around a proc that on ANY other class would be moreso bonus damage.

I feel like a Fire Mage is like a Ret Paladin that is completely designed and balanced around having Divine Purpose, just one that procs more. It just seems weird to me.

I'm not an expert on the class nor do I claim to be; this could be the dumbest post in the history of this board, for all I know. I just feel like Mage should always be the master of the flat-out and cliche "cast fire/ice/whatever spells nonstop" playstyle type. If they were balanced around a standard rotation and had Hot Streak occur less often (instead of relying and being balanced ENTIRELY around it), not only would it be easier for them to do more damage overall, but they could make those Hot Streak Pyros *incredible*. The less they proc, the harder they can hit. I feel like it'd be a lot more fun if it were a bit more rare, but when you got one it was just devastating. In addition, it would be easier to balance you in general. Right now they've got to take a shitload of facts into consideration when they try to balance your spec; how many casts are instant, how much your secondary stats (crit specifically) interact with your playstyle since some do more than they would for other classes, needing to lower damage of one spell beyond what they normally would to compensate for another spell becoming instant/whatever. I feel like a more cliche caster playstyle with awesome, powerful procs NOW and then would just be better overall and would allow you to perform better over the course of the fight without the Devs needing to worry about a streak where you do 14 million damage in 3 globals or whatever.

I picture the Mage class as follows. Again, this is purely in my head and is based on the limited knowledge I have on the current state of the class. I knew a *lot* about mages in the past but simply have not followed them enough in Legion... so before anybody gets upset with me for whatever reason, please keep in mind that I am in NO way claiming to be an expert on the class.

My view on how Mages should be:

Fire: Masters of sustained single target damage; some passive cleave via spreading DoTs, but less cleave/AOE than Arcane
Fire should be the master of high total damage done over a fight; "ABC" (always be casting) personified, Fire has great sustain through the use of Fireball and other standard cast-time abilities to do single target damage. Crit will be a lower stat priority for Fire, with most running around 25-30%. The Hot Streak system will be in place, but with fewer abilities able to give a guaranteed crit. Because of this, the spec is not BALANCED around Hot Streak and getting a proc is more exciting and can do much more burst. These proc'd attacks are Fire's primary (and only) source of instant, on-demand burst; aside from this, it is a sustained-damage spec. More damage is inflicted through the target being burnt, causing a % of damage over time (think Bloodlet for Havoc). While Fire has far less on-demand burst overall, over the course of a fight their sustained single target damage is highest of the three specs. Their burns (DoTs) can also spread to other nearby enemies, and while it's a decent amount of damage it's not as much spread pressure as Arcane. Fire earns its spot in a raid purely through sustained damage output.

Frost: Masters of devastating burst damage. Less sustained than Fire, but the highest on-demand burst of the class. Great for shorter fights and high-priority targets. Great for PVP.
Frost Mages should be the masters of on-demand burst, doing less sustained damage over long periods (as compared to Fire) but having absolutely insane burst periods via properly setting up shatter combos and the like. Their sustained DPS certainly isn't terrible, but the longer a fight goes on the less sustained damage they will do compared to Fire. For priority adds that need to be killed or on shorter fights, no other Mage spec can keep up with the absurd burst that Frost can pump out. They also have the most utility and control in terms of snares/roots and the like, along with defensive utility for a raid group (some kind of Ring of Frost-looking ability that helps reduce raid damage or something). Frost is, in most situations, the go-to PVP spec for its insane on-demand damage and control. Frost earns its spot in a raid due to its crazy burst for fights with priority kill targets, its assistance with snaring enemies when needed, and its single minor raid-wide defensive.

Arcane: Masters of multi-target cleave and AOE
Arcane should have reasonable ST damage through standard cast time spells, but only through direct damage (no additional DoT like Fire has). They have a 2/3m CD-based debuff they can apply to an enemy to slow its rate of attack temporarily (think Slow). Their sustained single target damage is not terrible, similar to Frost, but is consistently less than Fire. They do rely more on burst damage than Fire does, but compared to Frost Arcane's burst is for less damage but more often (similar to how it currently is with Arcane Blast). They also have a slight ramp-up period, similar to Frost, but (again) for somewhat less damage and at a faster rate. On a single target fight, it may seem like there's no reason to take Arcane over the other two; that's because Arcane's strength begins with cleave. Arcane does more damage for every enemy target. When there are two or more enemies, Arcane will keep up Fire's sustained DPS, surpassing it at 3 targets. On AoE, Arcane will destroy the two other specs with relative ease. Arcane earns its spot in a raid through providing incredible cleave/AOE damage while still having mediocre (near midpack) sustained ST damage and providing Slow as a minor cooldown to temporarily reduce boss damage on the tank.

------

So yeah, that's how I view it. Fire for ST, Frost for PVP and incredible on-demand burst, Arcane for cleave/AoE. I feel like it's be a cool setup.

Now, ignoring my ideas -- how are things ACTUALLY set up right now? What is Fire's strength, and why would you pick it over the other two? The same question for Frost and Arcane. I remember that for YEARS, Frost was the go-to PVP spec. Are the issues you guys are having specific to Fire or do they also apply to the class in general? What makes X spec weaker than Y? I'm just curious to whether it's simply "we want to be doing more damage" or if's a "mechanically, the way X functions is subpar and should be replaced with Y."

Edit:
You know how druids can select an Affinity, allowing them to obtain a bit of utility from alternate specs? A healer can pick Balance affinity to help do more damage, a DPS can pick Guardian affinity for some survivability, etc? I always thought that would be a *great* thing for mages. A Fire can pick Arcane affinity and gain a little bit of AoE damage. Just the same, an Arcane could pick Frost affinity for a little on-demand ST burst, or a Frost could pick Fire affinity to assist their ST damage. I'm thinking it would be..

Fire affinity: Your attacks have a chance to burn their target, doing X% damage over X seconds (increase ST sustained).
Arcane affinity: Your attacks have a chance to cause your target to explode with arcane energy, doing X damage within X yards (increase AOE)
Frost affinity: Your attacks have a small chance proc [Buff Name], which will launch an ice lance towards your target if used within the next X seconds, dealing X Frost damage (increase on-demand burst).

Since there are three specs and three rows in a talent tier, I suppose you could pick your own spec to enhance it further (ie Fire could still pick Fire affinity). Or, picking your own spec could be a specific buff; fire picking fire or frost picking frost is simply a pre-set gain. Mana regen, 2% more damage done, whatever. It could also still just give you the ability; fire picking fire would still get the additional debuff, frost picking frost would still give you the ice lance proc, arcane picking arcane would still gain more AOE. I just think the affinity idea is *great* and more should have it. A frost mage being able to say "I need a little more AOE on this fight" and being able to simply swap affinities rather than having to respec entirely would be awesome. Some players love their spec and don't want to be forced to change to perform well on a fight; this would be awesome for those situations.

I don't know, maybe that's too much, but I always thought Mage was *perfect* for that Affinity-type system if they really make each spec have unique strengths.

[mrgreenthump]

-snip-

So yeah, that's how I view it. Fire for ST, Frost for PVP and incredible on-demand burst, Arcane for cleave/AoE. I feel like it's be a cool setup.

Now, ignoring my ideas -- how are things ACTUALLY set up right now? What is Fire's strength, and why would you pick it over the other two? The same question for Frost and Arcane. I remember that for YEARS, Frost was the go-to PVP spec. Are the issues you guys are having specific to Fire or do they also apply to the class in general? What makes X spec weaker than Y? I'm just curious to whether it's simply "we want to be doing more damage" or if's a "mechanically, the way X functions is subpar and should be replaced with Y."

The biggest problem with Mage currently is.. The legendaries. Our BiS legendaries are just way too strong and we are reliant on said legendaries to perform.


As to the actual specs..

Fire's strenght is it's burst AoE, which is pretty much useless in a raid setting. Fire has decent cleave, but when the ST damage is bad and cleave being based on said damage, the cleave is lackluster also. How bad is Fire? I do more single target dps with as Frost without legendaries, 7 ilevels less on weapon(given bis relic) and 10 less paragon traits.

The real problem with Mage is that we got 3 specs which all have something good in them, but also have big weaknesses, that makes said specs less than ideal on some encounters. Fire is closest to a well-rounded spec, but it needs some serious love and attention in the damage department. Frost has good ST and cleave, but everything else is pretty meh. And Arcane has excellent AoE and it's damage is decent, but it too could use a small damage buff.

So we need to switch specs on encounter to encounter, depending on what is needed. Which is a real problem when you take into account the Paragon system and legendaries. Those people who got Belovir's, Norgannon's and Sephuz's as their first legendaries and hopelessly behind everyone atm, because they probably only have DPS legendaries for one spec.

[Alvito]

I've run m+ with some competent warlocks and they outdpsed me often.

Also let's look at this from objective perspective (that doesn't depend on individual opinions):
Fire is fine in m+, but doesn't "wreck" it

All bosses, brilliant way to smash all the numbers together and to get a worthless mess.

[Woobels]

No, the current issue with mage is that our best ST spec is Frost, by a WIDE margin, and our best aoe/add spec is Fire, again by a wide margin.

This means we need to put in 200% of the work of a hybrid to be competitive, warlocks have the same issue I believe.

It's retarded and it means playing a hybrid over a pure means you put to in way less work for better payoff.

This is ignoring legendaries entirely, which are again a much bigger issue for pures than hybrids.

All of this is because Blizzard, once again, did not stay true to their word and decided to completely change spec balance with 7.1.5.

[Ipsissimus]

TEXT

I apologize for the rant, but given the effort you've put into your post I'd like to clarify a few things.

Mages are asking for a spec to compete with the others.
The reason this thread is about Fire is because Blizzard forced our hand into playing the spec at the start of the expansion, despite extended feedback during alpha/beta, to all three specs. Most of us have remained Fire following the massive investment into your spec required in Legion and the fact that prior to the current raid, the other two specs weren't exactly super relevant for progression (shout out to Frost Mages on Odyn and Guarm though). When going into NH we weren't certain which of our 3 specs will end up being optimal. That is, as a result of the incoming hotfixes, and not because the collective mind of all Mages failed to deduce which spec would serve us best in the encounters.

There is no justification for what Blizzard has done to pure DPS classes this expansion. Rogues, while doing great at the moment, have had to funnel AP and legendary loot chances into all three specs. A Rogue asking to be able to compete for a top 3 spot in every fight is absolutely not the same as an Enhancement Shaman or a Retribution Paladin doing so.

A good 'pure' DPS used to meet his or her guild's standard with all three of their specs.
A 'hybrid' used to provide unique and important buffs and debuffs to the raid and party.
The raid size used to be big enough to accommodate all classes, and most specs.
Raid throughput used to depend on providing all those buffs and debuffs.

Blizzard massively incentivized 'pure' DPS to invest into a single spec.
They pruned those buffs and debuffs away.
The raid sized diminished while more classes were added.
The only thing that matters for raid throughput is how Blizzard has balanced the specs which happen to comprise it. Oh right, as long as you have a Blood Lust class in your midst.

There is no correct answer to how classes and specs should be balanced. When you zoom out and examine Legion's design philosophy and character progression mechanism within the scope of WoW as a whole, it genuinely doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So for now, we will continue complaining how even a Mage with the two BiS single target legendary items can't keep up unless he exceedingly outperforms the other members of his raid. Exceedingly because Legion also introduced a fair bit of RNG to how we, the players, deal damage. It's damn hard work working and playing around that. Guess where the Mage without those two items is no matter how good he or she might be at pressing their buttons hard?

As for your suggestion of the basic rotation dealing significant damage and Always Be Casting being rewarded justly: That is simply how the game used to be before Blizzard fell in love with tying everyone's damage to their procs.
Much like the other old and better philosophies and designs, I sincerely doubt it's ever coming back.

[Kernel]

All bosses, brilliant way to smash all the numbers together and to get a worthless mess.

It is total DPS in M+, not bosses, I was answering to the "fire wrecks M+" thing. Even in M+, Fire is far from being strongest.

[Extremity]

I apologize for the rant, but given the effort you've put into your post I'd like to clarify a few things.

Mages are asking for a spec to compete with the others.
The reason this thread is about Fire is because Blizzard forced our hand into playing the spec at the start of the expansion, despite extended feedback during alpha/beta, to all three specs. Most of us have remained Fire following the massive investment into your spec required in Legion and the fact that prior to the current raid, the other two specs weren't exactly super relevant for progression (shout out to Frost Mages on Odyn and Guarm though). When going into NH we weren't certain which of our 3 specs will end up being optimal. That is, as a result of the incoming hotfixes, and not because the collective mind of all Mages failed to deduce which spec would serve us best in the encounters.

There is no justification for what Blizzard has done to pure DPS classes this expansion. Rogues, while doing great at the moment, have had to funnel AP and legendary loot chances into all three specs. A Rogue asking to be able to compete for a top 3 spot in every fight is absolutely not the same as an Enhancement Shaman or a Retribution Paladin doing so.

A good 'pure' DPS used to meet his or her guild's standard with all three of their specs.
A 'hybrid' used to provide unique and important buffs and debuffs to the raid and party.
The raid size used to be big enough to accommodate all classes, and most specs.
Raid throughput used to depend on providing all those buffs and debuffs.

Blizzard massively incentivized 'pure' DPS to invest into a single spec.
They pruned those buffs and debuffs away.
The raid sized diminished while more classes were added.
The only thing that matters for raid throughput is how Blizzard has balanced the specs which happen to comprise it. Oh right, as long as you have a Blood Lust class in your midst.

There is no correct answer to how classes and specs should be balanced. When you zoom out and examine Legion's design philosophy and character progression mechanism within the scope of WoW as a whole, it genuinely doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So for now, we will continue complaining how even a Mage with the two BiS single target legendary items can't keep up unless he exceedingly outperforms the other members of his raid. Exceedingly because Legion also introduced a fair bit of RNG to how we, the players, deal damage. It's damn hard work working and playing around that. Guess where the Mage without those two items is no matter how good he or she might be at pressing their buttons hard?

As for your suggestion of the basic rotation dealing significant damage and Always Be Casting being rewarded justly: That is simply how the game used to be before Blizzard fell in love with tying everyone's damage to their procs.
Much like the other old and better philosophies and designs, I sincerely doubt it's ever coming back.

I agree with what you're saying and this probably wasn't the best thread for my random "check out this dumb idea, guys!" ramblings.

I totally understand the multi-spec AP problem. We've gone from pures being the go-to classes for DPS to them having a tremendous disadvantage, and single-DPS-spec hybrids having an overwhelming advantage in terms of DPS due to only needing to channel AP into one weapon. Now, hybrids that need to play all (or two) or their specs will still run into the same problem, but the point is that they can POTENTIALLY only focus on one spec. One could argue that Mages could also potentially feed only one spec, but the difference is that if a hybrid is going to DPS, if they've made that decision, they have one spec to worry about. Even hybrids with multiple DPS specs such as Shaman or Druids still have to pick if they're going to be melee or ranged, and can lock down to that spec for AP; there is no "better" melee DPS option for a Shaman, no "better" caster DPS option for a Druid. As a Mage, if one spec ends up being better than another for an encounter (or, God forbid, overall) then you're effectively screwed if you need to swap.

I get what you're saying, completely, although it's certainly a game problem more than a "Mage" problem. As for what you said about Fire -- I leveled a Fire mage in beta, so I know what you're talking about. I only got to 108 or so, however, because it was just... boring. I tried Arcane, but it was no better. I did KIND of like Frost, but Fire just went so quicker. It's always odd to me when the easier of the three specs performs the best.

The "legendaries between specs" problem isn't Mage-only either, many other classes have the same horrible situation, and many also flat out can't perform without getting legendary X or Y.

Blizzard definitely failed with Fire. When I say "others have this AP problem too" and "others have legendary issues too" I'm in no way trying to belittle your issues; Fire is a weird, clunky spec that is ENTIRELY BASED on a style that should be a minor part of a properly designed spec. It's as if they were building Fire for Legion and got Hot Streak working. Then, they were distracted and started working on something else. Before they knew it they only had two days to finish Mages, so they just made the entire spec revolve around "Crit once -- okay, now crit again!" and gave you an ability that always crits and an Artifact ability that also acts accordingly.

Seriously, the Fire mage feels as if your entire playstyle is what would normally be a small portion of a class. As I said earlier, it's like a Ret Paladin having something like Divine Purpose baseline and being based ENTIRELY around it.

I said it before and I'll say it again - they don't need to do a major redesign right now, but they need to make changes. Mages, more specifically Fire, SHOULD get back to that "ABC" playstyle - Fireball should be your main button, crit should be far lower on your stat priorities, and Hot Streak procs should be *nothing* but a bonus. It should hit hard so that it's fun when it happens. Outside of that, the spec should be about managing uptimes on your burns (DoTs) in some regard and then using short-cooldown (<1m) abilities at the appropriate time to enhance those DoTs or your next few spells. That sounds like a typical class to me. Honestly, Frost should be about "setting up" abilities for high damage, Arcane should be mindless Blast spam, and Fire should be somewhere in between; constant casting while managing one or two debuffs and dealing with a few high priority abilities/cooldowns.

Having your spec be, literally "crit twice in a row" is fucking stupid, honestly, especially with two abilities (that both have charges) that crit 100% of the time. Then it turns in to "crit once, then use [insert ability]" -- if abilities or down, hope you crit twice passively until they're back up.

If you can explain how to play a class in literally the most optimal way (aside from placement and shit, I'm talking purely the buttons you push) in 10 seconds, something is wrong with that class. Havoc is easy to play, and I could not communicate every detail and intricacy in the time I could explain Fire.

It sucks, because I know a lot of Mages out there that are GREAT players. I'm sure plenty of you guys are great players, too. I'm seriously sorry that you guys have had to contend with this for so long, but I respect the fact that you're sticking it out and hoping for change rather than jumping ship like many others. I did the same with my Paladin for almost a decade. You'll be destroying everybody on the meters (and hopefully actually enjoying yourselves while doing it) again soon™!

This really does bring up the main issue (or one of them) of Legion; people focus so much on things being "alt friendly" when there's so much that's not even "main friendly". If you cap out the artifact weapon for one spec, you should gain progress in your alternative specs at a faster rate; I'm not talking AK, I'm talking an additional source of bonus AP. Or, bring back dual spec in another regard; applying AP to a weapon after rank 34 also applies 20/50/whatever percent of that AP to a second spec's weapon of your choosing. Honestly, it doesn't matter how they do it, they need to let you work on a second spec at the same time, at a reduced rate, without gimping your primary. Honestly, how did Blizzard not foresee these issues? I'm not saying don't make peope work for it or to give it for free... I'm just saying keep it REASONABLE, make it POSSIBLE to maintain more than one spec without having to accept the fact that your primary will ALWAYS be behind people that focus on one.

[Zenfoldor]

It's looking to me(speculation) like Legendaries will be turned into tokens for the new outdoor content, similar to timeless isles. In 7.2 then, I expect only AP will prevent us from switching. We may finally get to relatively easily switch specs for different bosses again.

[D3athsting]

It's looking to me(speculation) like Legendaries will be turned into tokens for the new outdoor content, similar to timeless isles. In 7.2 then, I expect only AP will prevent us from switching. We may finally get to relatively easily switch specs for different bosses again.

Leggies aren't a panacea for fire mage, i think many ppl here who don't have them overestimate those items, all i can say is don't expect to jump from bottom to top of recount with legendaries, you will still be middle of the pack and don't expect to beat melees on any fight that isn't aluriel skorpylol or tychondrius, fire is beyond broken for ST and average for aoe but devs don't care, they seem more occupied to release tomb of sargeras (and then the usual 12 months content drought) with ppl still progressing on nh than looking at class balance, my guild is the only reason i'm not unsubbing and doing something better than trying to be useful to my raid with a handicapped class

[gallamann]

Snip

Concerning Beta -

Someone at Blizzard should be fucking FIRED. Any serious developer would have needed only one login to the Mage Class Hall to see Mage balance was completely borked. Over 99% of the mages present were fire. That is as broken as it gets.

Further they took away what made Frost fun (machine gun play style) and gave it to fire.

People like me told them plenty of times Frost needed help to justify playing it Live, in Beta and we got ZERO movement.

More were posting same about Arcane.

[Fayenoor]

Concerning Beta -

Someone at Blizzard should be fucking FIRED. Any serious developer would have needed only one login to the Mage Class Hall to see Mage balance was completely borked. Over 99% of the mages present were fire. That is as broken as it gets.

Further they took away what made Frost fun (machine gun play style) and gave it to fire.

People like me told them plenty of times Frost needed help to justify playing it Live, in Beta and we got ZERO movement.

More were posting same about Arcane.

Celestalon discussed this in a tweet. According to him the actual difference in DPS between Fire frost and arcane is around 5-10%. However, the best players always play the highest DPS spec, so the lower DPS specs always end up under-represented. As a result the perceived difference in DPS between the 3 specs become much larger than it actually is.

[D3athsting]

Celestalon discussed this in a tweet. According to him the actual difference in DPS between Fire frost and arcane is around 5-10%. However, the best players always play the highest DPS spec, so the lower DPS specs always end up under-represented. As a result the perceived difference in DPS between the 3 specs become much larger than it actually is.

He's right, all 3 specs are quite similar... all of them do shit dps

[Deleted]

Celestalon discussed this in a tweet. According to him the actual difference in DPS between Fire frost and arcane is around 5-10%. However, the best players always play the highest DPS spec, so the lower DPS specs always end up under-represented. As a result the perceived difference in DPS between the 3 specs become much larger than it actually is.

which just shows how out of touch with reality celestalon actually is bcoz what he mentions have literally no impact on how it is in game, in game we are throttled back through AP and legendaries, only ppl that put in 12+ hours a day farming AP and have 54 traits in each weapon and having 2 bis legendaries for each spec have the option to gravitate towards the optimal specs or they have just been lucky and picked the correct spec from the start AND none of this really matters when compared to mage's position when it comes to dps as mage is consistently bad in NH. celestalon must have been high on something when he wrote that, well when he writes anything really.

- - - Updated - - -

He's right, all 3 specs are quite similar... all of them do shit dps

aye, and the fact that we havent gotten buffs shows the glaring issues blizz has when buffs/nerfs needs to be given, they are almost always way too slow, being consistently 15ish% behind on most fights and not getting buffs is just stupid..

[texhex]

i dont want to quote that person above with the wall of text, but i just want to add some notes.
obviously one specific spec of a pure dps class should not always be #1, but dont forget, everytime we swap from spec A to spec B it is like rerolling a class within a class, compared to a hybrid, that maybe only has one dps spec. as a pure dps class you expect to switch around specs to stay competitive. its basically something other people dont want to do.. they want to stay elemental all the time. we take a class, where we are willing to switch between specs to stay competitive and it has been like that in the past. one tier fire was good, then arcane and sometimes frost, but never that one spec was supergood for a whole expansion. If we would have sticked to fire always it would have been like for every other hybrid dps spec... up's and down's. But since legion we are like doomed into one spec. as a hybrid i can at least heal some m+ if its needed. as a pure dps... well you stick to your best performing oen and it is the one where you have most traits and legendaries, even if it might be the currently worst spec.

yes as a pure DPS i expect to have at least one spec, that performs above average, because i have a high probability (3 chances) that at least one is good, when i am willing to switch the spec (which is basically like switching from elemental to moonkin, except you keep gear etc)
but if you see, that baasically all your specs are trash it has something like a bitter taste.

Legion destroyed pure DPS specs anyway. We only have one spec and we are locked to it, becasue no matter how bad your current one is compared to your others, you will still perform better with it becasue ofd traits and legendaries, but shit as hell compared to other classes.

For me the legion legendary and trait system first felt nice. Now its annoying as f**k. It locks you to something you maybe dont want to play anymore.
If i knew that before i would have played 3 mages same time... one fire one frost one arcane. only real way to keep all 3 specs viable.

[Deleted]

Issues have more to do with how bad nightholds encounters are designed for ranged classes rather than on clasd balance by itself.



A lot of encounters are movement heavy, but most ranged classes aren t designed for that in wow.

[mrgreenthump]

Issues have more to do with how bad nightholds encounters are designed for ranged classes rather than on clasd balance by itself.



A lot of encounters are movement heavy, but most ranged classes aren t designed for that in wow.

That's good and all, but we are talking about Fire Mages here... And there really ain't an encounter in Nighthold where we would have to cast scorch.

[Deleted]

I agree that mage developers are complete and utter dimwits. First of all, they released a class with 3 cooldown-based specs. Seriously, you have to be completely retarded to make 3 classes that used to have their very own flavour so similarly shitty. Combustion=Arcane Power≈Icy Veins.

Secondly, they released the class with one workable spec and 2 completely broken ones which is why everyone rolled fire; you didn't have a choice. Thus removing any sense of identity from mage players; you're all clones.

I mean, we haven't even brought up the fail of cleave mechanics, ignite spreading, Living Bomb, crit scaling, pyro nerfind rather than legendary balancing, etc. and it's already obvious the mage class designer dropped the (fire)ball. Imagine if you would actually scrutinise mechanics and decisions, decisions that have been exponentially bad throughout this whole fucking expansion.

I agree with one of the posters above: The mage designer should be fired at once.

[globenstine]

just mad fire isnt fotm anymore. at least mages have two good specs. try being a hunter. SV is a meme and bm/mm are barely average.