Why can't bolvar not just order all of scourge to kill themselves

[Rafoel]

Bolvar doesnt have frostmourne, and Mal'ganis was completly unprepared. Kil'jaden and a bunch of Dreadlords wouldn't be.

Well, we know that Illidan > Tichondrius, and Arthas > Illidan.

Besides, Arthas confronted the Dreadlord Council at the beginning of Frozen Throne campaign, and they fled from him.




On another topic - I listened to 7.2 Bolvar voiceovers. At one moment he says that - "Helm of Dominion showed me things". Then he talks about visions of undead armies. Wtf is that? Helm isn't supposed to do that! Arthas heard voice talking to him through Frostmourne, but it was Ner'zhul's voice, not the blade's. Till this moment, we didn't have a single suggestion that the Helm can do anything on its own, it was merely a tool to command the undead.

It's either Ner'zhul's spirit that hid inside the helment, or Kil'jaeden using his former connection to the Lich King to manipulate Bolvar. Either way, something REALLY fishy is going on.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well, we know that Illidan > Tichondrius, and Arthas > Illidan.

Besides, Arthas confronted the Dreadlord Council at the beginning of Frozen Throne campaign, and they fled from him.




On another topic - I listened to 7.2 Bolvar voiceovers. At one moment he says that - "Helm of Dominion showed me things". Then he talks about visions of undead armies. Wtf is that? Helm isn't supposed to do that! Arthas heard voice talking to him through Frostmourne, but it was Ner'zhul's voice, not the blade's. Till this moment, we didn't have a single suggestion that the Helm can do anything on its own, it was merely a tool to command the undead.

It's either Ner'zhul's spirit that hid inside the helment, or Kil'jaeden using his former connection to the Lich King to manipulate Bolvar. Either way, something REALLY fishy is going on.

The frozen Throne +being the lich king expands your consciousness. Neither of your scenarios are any more likely then the helm just being the helm.

[Zulkhan]

The frozen Throne +being the lich king expands your consciousness. Neither of your scenarios are any more likely then the helm just being the helm.

Nah, is Ner'zhul man. You just lack faith.

[Arkthugal]

If Blizzard really wanted that situation to make sense, there wouldn't "need" to be a Lich King in the first place. As people have been complaining about since 3.3: Almost every quest line that involves Scourge leads to a Quest that can be summarized as "kill their commanders, without direction they're much less of a threat" but for some reason after destroying nearly all the Scourge across all of the surface of Northrend all the way to and into ICC and occupying the friggin content suddenly... there "needs to be someone holding them back."

...Right. Someone check Uther's Ghost and see if that was actually Kil'jaeden.

Because the truth is that killing their commanders did precisely nothing to weaken the Scourge. Throughout the entirety of Wrath, Arthas was holding back an army of undead large enough to simply bury all of Azeroth in a tide of corpses. He didn't, precisely because he wanted a group of powerful lieutenants (us) for the inevitable moment when the Legion came knocking, and he came within an inch of pulling it off.

With Arthas dead, they needed someone else to hold back that endless tide of Scourge, which is what Bolvar's been doing, though if you're a DK he makes it quite clear that if you fail, he's just going to let the full might of the Scourge loose on Azeroth and kill everything.

[Manabomb]

To be fair, it's always been Ner'zhuls will to get revenge on KJ and the Legion.

Perhaps that will is now the foundation in which the Lich King as a demi-god entity is built. It's the reason why Arthas ultimately wanted the players as champions of the scourge at the peak of their power, to fight the Legion.

[Kagthul]

Tichondrius: Lord Archimonde, all the preparations have been made.
Archimonde: Very well, Tichondrius. Since the Lich King is of no further use to me, you dreadlords will now command the Scourge.

And this is Dreadlords "Dealing with the Lich King" how?

This is them usurping command of the mindless Scourge in Lordaeron, which we already know to be far easier than confronting or attacking the Lich King; also, this was before the merger of Ner'zhul and Arthas. And we already know that the Lich King had armies of undead so big he could simply have burried the living in tides of the dead, and did not, for his own agenda. The Dreadlords never got command of those undead, did they? The entity that is the Lich King has continued to grow in power as it has consumed/merged with new hosts.

Something easily known if you ever even bothered to play Wc3
Edit: I see Aqua already posted it.

Nothing he posted had anything to do with Dreadlords confronting or overpowering or attacking or harming the Lich King; merely assuming command of Scourge that are far from him and already easy to pry from his control. Wowza.

another reason to not bring them to the broken isles is well, dreadlords

and dreadlord versus bolvar, who do you think has a stronger control over the undead...?

- - - Updated - - -

Bolvar. By miles and miles. Though distance does play a part, so he'd have trouble keeping control of the Scourge so far from Northrend, which is why he enlists the Ebon Blade in the first place. Unlike Arthas, Bolvar does not have trusted powerful Scourge lieutenants who can keep control of distant Scourge forces.

well and the saronite fortress around him, we know saronite is the blood of the old gods, and the old gods can whisper and corrupt through it (when i say old gods i mean yog, derp)

The Scourge are immune to the effects of Saronite. Ergo, so is the Lich King.

Also, the Lich King was going to launch the legion had the ebon blade not intervened. I doubt he'd be stupid enough to send his undead to the broken shore if he knows he can't maintain control over them.

Actually, that's precisely WHY he enlists the Ebon Blade instead of unleashing the Scourge. He's sure the Scourge would kill everything on the Broken Isles, but so far away, they would indiscriminately kill EVERYTHING, and Bolvar is still trying to "win", not turn Azeroth into a graveyard. He has made intimation, though, that if the Heroes (particularly the Deathlord of the Ebon Blade) fail, releasing the Scourge to wipe Azeroth clean is not off the table. He knows he wont be able to maintain fine control of the Scourge so far away, but if the heroes fail, he'd rather Azeroth be a lifeless husk than taken by the Legion.

Because the truth is that killing their commanders did precisely nothing to weaken the Scourge. Throughout the entirety of Wrath, Arthas was holding back an army of undead large enough to simply bury all of Azeroth in a tide of corpses. He didn't, precisely because he wanted a group of powerful lieutenants (us) for the inevitable moment when the Legion came knocking, and he came within an inch of pulling it off.

With Arthas dead, they needed someone else to hold back that endless tide of Scourge, which is what Bolvar's been doing, though if you're a DK he makes it quite clear that if you fail, he's just going to let the full might of the Scourge loose on Azeroth and kill everything.

People need to pay attention to this last post.

The Lich King has grown far beyond whatever Kil'Jaeden intended. First merging with Arthas, and then Bolvar, and has grown in power to the point where it control an army of undead so large it could bury the world in corpses if it so chose.

Something like a Dreadlord poses no threat to The Lich King. They can be killed, even without Frostmourne. If one attacked Bolvar, or even dozens or hundreds, theyd be torn apart by tens of thousands of Scourge each.

He's already capable of wiping out all life on Azeroth - has been since Arthas took over, and probably before. The only reason he hasn't is because Arthas didn't desire to rule over a world of only the undead, and was playing a long game trying to raise champions of the Scourge that could stand toe to toe with the best the Legion had to offer, and because Bolvar (as his successor) takes his duty to Azeroth seriously... but Bolvar has already said that if it comes to it, he will unleash the Scourge to wipe Azeroth clean. And he can.

Consider the Scourge the be the Nuclear Option. Mutually Assured Destruction.

[FelPlague]

And this is Dreadlords "Dealing with the Lich King" how?

This is them usurping command of the mindless Scourge in Lordaeron, which we already know to be far easier than confronting or attacking the Lich King; also, this was before the merger of Ner'zhul and Arthas. And we already know that the Lich King had armies of undead so big he could simply have burried the living in tides of the dead, and did not, for his own agenda. The Dreadlords never got command of those undead, did they? The entity that is the Lich King has continued to grow in power as it has consumed/merged with new hosts.



Nothing he posted had anything to do with Dreadlords confronting or overpowering or attacking or harming the Lich King; merely assuming command of Scourge that are far from him and already easy to pry from his control. Wowza.



Bolvar. By miles and miles. Though distance does play a part, so he'd have trouble keeping control of the Scourge so far from Northrend, which is why he enlists the Ebon Blade in the first place. Unlike Arthas, Bolvar does not have trusted powerful Scourge lieutenants who can keep control of distant Scourge forces.



The Scourge are immune to the effects of Saronite. Ergo, so is the Lich King.



Actually, that's precisely WHY he enlists the Ebon Blade instead of unleashing the Scourge. He's sure the Scourge would kill everything on the Broken Isles, but so far away, they would indiscriminately kill EVERYTHING, and Bolvar is still trying to "win", not turn Azeroth into a graveyard. He has made intimation, though, that if the Heroes (particularly the Deathlord of the Ebon Blade) fail, releasing the Scourge to wipe Azeroth clean is not off the table. He knows he wont be able to maintain fine control of the Scourge so far away, but if the heroes fail, he'd rather Azeroth be a lifeless husk than taken by the Legion.



People need to pay attention to this last post.

The Lich King has grown far beyond whatever Kil'Jaeden intended. First merging with Arthas, and then Bolvar, and has grown in power to the point where it control an army of undead so large it could bury the world in corpses if it so chose.

Something like a Dreadlord poses no threat to The Lich King. They can be killed, even without Frostmourne. If one attacked Bolvar, or even dozens or hundreds, theyd be torn apart by tens of thousands of Scourge each.

He's already capable of wiping out all life on Azeroth - has been since Arthas took over, and probably before. The only reason he hasn't is because Arthas didn't desire to rule over a world of only the undead, and was playing a long game trying to raise champions of the Scourge that could stand toe to toe with the best the Legion had to offer, and because Bolvar (as his successor) takes his duty to Azeroth seriously... but Bolvar has already said that if it comes to it, he will unleash the Scourge to wipe Azeroth clean. And he can.

uhhh no things that have no santiy are immune... not dead things... as we see with undead shadow preists...

[Kagthul]

uhhh no things that have no santiy are immune... not dead things... as we see with undead shadow preists...

Forsaken are not Scourge, for one.

For two, Xal'atath is not Saronite. Xal'atath is an Old God, or at the very least, what remains of it.

[Kontinuum]

That "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world" thing was always retarded.

If the need arises, we'll bitch slap Bolvar, just like we did with Arthas.

[FelPlague]

Forsaken are not Scourge, for one.

For two, Xal'atath is not Saronite. Xal'atath is an Old God, or at the very least, what remains of it.

anything with a soul can be corrupted
aqnd bolvar for sure has a soul...

[Zandalariprelate]

Well, we know that Illidan > Tichondrius, and Arthas > Illidan.

Besides, Arthas confronted the Dreadlord Council at the beginning of Frozen Throne campaign, and they fled from him.




On another topic - I listened to 7.2 Bolvar voiceovers. At one moment he says that - "Helm of Dominion showed me things". Then he talks about visions of undead armies. Wtf is that? Helm isn't supposed to do that! Arthas heard voice talking to him through Frostmourne, but it was Ner'zhul's voice, not the blade's. Till this moment, we didn't have a single suggestion that the Helm can do anything on its own, it was merely a tool to command the undead.

It's either Ner'zhul's spirit that hid inside the helment, or Kil'jaeden using his former connection to the Lich King to manipulate Bolvar. Either way, something REALLY fishy is going on.

Yeah since the beginning bolvar had become more edgy since the last time we meet him in icecrown for me Ner'zhul is just acting like him to get revenge against the legion but we are gonna end the scourge once in for all in 7.3 in the campaign of the dk either we perma kill nerzhul or we just create or steal the bligh of the forsaken and we eliminate the scourge with that and bolvar incluided

[Kagthul]

That "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world" thing was always retarded.

If the need arises, we'll bitch slap Bolvar, just like we did with Arthas.

You obviously played a different version of the Lich King encounter than i did. Arthas straight up mass-killed all of us with a wave of his hand. The only reason he didnt win was because of a lame Deus-Ex-Asspull-Machina.

He had WON. we were all dead, and he was seconds away from raising us all as unspeakably powerful Scourge lieutenants.

We didnt bitch slap him. He bitch slapped US. And then Blizzard's hand-chosen plot NPC of Awesome whose coat-tails we were riding 'saved the day'. (And i hope were all ready for round 2 of that with Marty-Stu Illidan, whom im sure will be gracious enough to let us hold his cloak while he saves the day.)

[Kontinuum]

And then Blizzard's hand-chosen plot NPC of Awesome whose coat-tails we were riding 'saved the day'.

That was right after another Blizzard's hand-chosen plot NPC of Awesome killed us. Whatever, the end result is dead Arthas.

[Jastall]

If Blizzard really wanted that situation to make sense, there wouldn't "need" to be a Lich King in the first place. As people have been complaining about since 3.3: Almost every quest line that involves Scourge leads to a Quest that can be summarized as "kill their commanders, without direction they're much less of a threat" but for some reason after destroying nearly all the Scourge across all of the surface of Northrend all the way to and into ICC and occupying the friggin content suddenly... there "needs to be someone holding them back."

...Right. Someone check Uther's Ghost and see if that was actually Kil'jaeden.

Yeah, that bit of lore has always made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I mean, if there's some sort of failsafe that prevents the Lich King from suiciding all his undead off a cliff or something, why not just line them all up somewhere and have the Red Dragons torch them all or something.

[Mighty Parrot]

Would Bolvar still be able to reanimate/raise the dead though? He has us (Deathlords) go out and kill a "few" dragonflight members...a few bronze...maybe some greens and a shit ton of Reds...

What the fuck is he planning on doing? Raising a undead dragon army? What of the Frostwyrm/Magmawyrm/Emberwyrms seen during Wrath? Did they all die out or did we take the remaining Frostwyrms as mounts?

Really weird that we have to go and kill a member of a Dragonflight to make our own mount. (I thought for sure he voiceovers he was talking about Galakarond, apparently there was another that was stronger than him.)

GG Bolvar...consider the Dragonflight/Alliance/Horde all on your ass next expansion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nothing he posted had anything to do with Dreadlords confronting or overpowering or attacking or harming the Lich King; merely assuming command of Scourge that are far from him and already easy to pry from his control. Wowza.

Here you act as if you know what you are talking about, but you forgetting that ner'zhul easily held control of the scourge no matter where they were and still had the dreadlords take the scourge from him. In what story other than the one in your mind has Bolvar shown any capability to do what Ner'zhul could not? Personally I just think you can't stand the idea of dreadlords being better than Bolvar, despite it being quite clear they could take the scourge from the First and defiantly stronger lich King, Ner'zhul

[Kagthul]

Here you act as if you know what you are talking about,

Because I do.

but you forgetting that ner'zhul easily held control of the scourge no matter where they were

I will await with bated breath your source on that one. Or not, since you don't have one, but we DO have plenty of sources from WC3 and TFT that show that Ner'zhul's range was not unlimited. He had a hard time even keeping all of what would be the Forsaken under control and that was WITH powerful lieutenants (Kel'thuzad, Arthas) there to enforce his power and will. The moment he took even a tiny hit to his power, (when the Frozen Throne was cracked) he lost control of what would become the Forsaken and the undead in the Plaguelands.

And all the Dreadlords could do was take some hosts from the Plaguelands. Ner'zhul had literally endless armies in Northrend - if they could have taken them.. dont you think they would have? Would have made the assault on Hyjal a lot less dicey, i think.

and still had the dreadlords take the scourge from him.

Yeah, the ones in Lordaeron. Far away, that he had trouble controlling all the time in the first place, which led to him having Kel'thuzad turned into a Lich to help control said forces. You know, events that happened in WC3.

In what story other than the one in your mind has Bolvar shown any capability to do what Ner'zhul could not?

None, actually. I never said that Bovlar could do things Ner'zhul could not. I simply pointed out that you were incorrect in your flawed assertion that the Dreadlords could simply take the Scourge away from the Lich King at will. In fact, if you go back and look, i point out that one of the reasons that Bolvar enlists the aid of the Ebon Blade is precisely because he cant reliably control the Scourge when they get too far away from Northrend (which is why he doesn't have control of the undead in the Plaguelands) and he doesn't want to unleash the Scourge because they would just wash over the world like a wave and kill literally everything. In fact, if anything, Bolvar's level of power is more likely to be equivalent to that of the Ner'zhul Lich King, I.E. less powerful than Arthas.

Personally I just think you can't stand the idea of dreadlords being better than Bolvar,

I have no particular stake in Bolvar as an NPC. I do have a stake in not inventing things out of whole cloth to fit your head-narrative, which is all you seem capable of.

despite it being quite clear they could take the scourge from the First and defiantly stronger lich King, Ner'zhul

Defiantly stronger? Maybe you meant definitely.

That's a clear fallacy, however, as the Arthas-Lich King was far more powerful than Ner'zhul. Ner'zhul was literally crippled by Kil'jaeden (thats WHY he was imprisoned in the Frozen Throne in the first place, to limit his power and influence); when Arthas freed him and merged with him, eventually subsuming him to become the dominant mind in the bonding, he was FAR more powerful.

Bolvar isn't that powerful (yet) - and may never be.

But can Dreadlords just "take the scourge away from him" - no. Not remotely. There's no lore of any kind to back that up. Otherwise they already would have. Literally thousands of Dreadlords are on Azeroth right now. If they could just go take the (literally endless) armies of the Scourge away from Bolvar... they would have.

The war would already be over. We (the heroes) would have been burried in an endless wave of the dead.

The Lich King freed himself from the Frozen Throne and has grown in power beyond what Kil'jaeden planned. Its hardly even the first time one of Kil'kaeden's well laid plans has backfired and created a power he can no longer control and that threatens to thwart and destroy him.

[nothingsjim]

Here you act as if you know what you are talking about, but you forgetting that ner'zhul easily held control of the scourge no matter where they were and still had the dreadlords take the scourge from him. In what story other than the one in your mind has Bolvar shown any capability to do what Ner'zhul could not? Personally I just think you can't stand the idea of dreadlords being better than Bolvar, despite it being quite clear they could take the scourge from the First and defiantly stronger lich King, Ner'zhul

I think he's saying that Ner'zhul didn't actually contest the Dreadlords when the latter is trying to take control of the Scourge, for the simple reason that Archimonde and the Legion was here and such act of defiance will not go well for Ner'zhul.

Later on in TFT, the Dreadlord did take control of Scourge from Ner'zhul, but at that point LK was already losing power due to Illidan's meddling.

[LaplaceNoMa]

but with a new Lich King and Vellen's prophecy of a Lich King far worse than Arthas

What

Could you please elaborate? Can't find anything on the wikis.

[Theoris]

What

Could you please elaborate? Can't find anything on the wikis.

It's in Velen's shorty story. He was pondering over visions about possible futures that 'may or may not come to pass'. One was of a Lich King far more terrible than Ner'zhul and Arthas rising to power and killing every living thing on Azeroth.

Edit:
Here's the part talking about it:

In one possible future, he'd seen a successive Lich King rise from the Frozen Throne, even more terrible than Arthas or Ner'zhul, and sweep across the land with thousands of skeletal warriors in his wake. When the Legion returned, it was to a world already dead, and the demons laughed and played with the unnaturally risen draenei—all to spite Velen for the chase he'd led across the universe.