Titanforging Really Makes Going to Older Raids and Dungeons Worth Continuing

[Nero Stormchester]

WoD: There's not enough content...QQ
Legion: There's too much content...QQ

Blizzard can't win with you fuckin people.

OT: I love the system, sure RNG sucks but at least it gives you some incentive to doing older content.

THis . 100% agreed. People will always nag. If blizzard was to be half way between the two, people would still nag. I also like the current system despite it being frustrating at times.
P.S.
No one is obligated to do jack , but the option is there for those who want to. If anything the low chance of the needed piece dropping AND titanforging high enough , makes it too improbable for it to be an obligation. It's like saying you're obligated to play the lottery 2 times a week ><

[Deleted]

The fact that we're even comparing Legion's content to WoD should be enough of a red flag as is.

Ya because it's completely unreasonable to compare the current expansion with the previous one.. God what are people thinking?!

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The fact that we're even comparing Legion's content to WoD should be enough of a red flag as is.

Can you name an expansion with more content than Legion? Or a faster rollout for that content?

[Deleted]

It's not mandatory, I'd much rather the situation be that there's too much on offer than too little. Tonight my raid team is faced with the simple situation, as a casual guild most of us are only just closing in on the lower 50's of traits so we can spend some time on Aluriel/Krosus mythic tonight, or to help the group with AP and get a slim chance at some upgrades we can look at doing EN & ToV mythic for a bit more of a push.

Ultimately not much can be done for the people who confuse the presence of content with the requirement to do content. Those most affected are those in guilds, people have to accept that each guild has its own culture/expectations. If your expectations and the guild you're in aren't aligned, you should certainly be thinking about looking elsewhere. Raid nights, consumables, loot distribution, artifact level etc are all things guilds tend to ultimately decide as a group whether actively discussed or not.

[Blackmist]

I don't find the minuscule chance of Titanforged items worth rerunning normal modes. It can make farming your optimum difficulty more interesting, but that's it. The whole point of Titanforging is to keep you subscribed.

[SoulForge]

WoD: There's not enough content...QQ
Legion: There's too much content...QQ

Blizzard can't win with you fuckin people.

OT: I love the system, sure RNG sucks but at least it gives you some incentive to doing older content.

Repeating the same thing again in the off chance it might titanforge is not new content.

THe system only needs two chances, warforged and then titanforged.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I don't know. Preach did a video on a related topic recently. I get that there are uber competitive players who were used to coming home from work and mythic raiding without having to spend all their free time in game. Many of these players are frustrated by all the current options as they feel compelled to be as extreme as their raid mates in order to keep up. Presumably, with no external limits, these players are sometimes pushing each other to the point where none of them are having fun.

On the other hand, there are many of us who never feel compelled to do any of it; we just enjoy being able to mix it up and advance our characters in a variety of ways depending on what mood we're in. I realized recently that there were still trinkets in mythic EN that would serve me better than the ones in heroic NH. I didn't get around to EN this week, despite knowing that, but it might be fun to get a group together next week. We'll mostly keep progressing on the current tier, but going back a tier or two can be a fun change of pace.

Must be an interesting challenge for Blizz, balancing all these different play styles.

[Deleted]

How would that look, with some people playing 12hrs a day and others only 1?

The problem is that you can play 24 hours a day and still have things left to do to improve your character.

Add a cap/cutoff on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. I get what you're saying, that the pool of players is so vastly different that no matter what someone will complain, but you can't possibly think that the majority of the playerbase enjoys farming 24/7.

WoD was "log on for 20 mins and you're done for the day". We went from that to "improving your character literally never ends". Previous expansions were much more balanced in that aspect, of course there were people complaining as always, but the majority was happier.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

It's a great system. People approach it all wrong though. They think they need to do lower difficulties to get Titan forging then complain when they don't get it.
That's like complaining you didn't win the lottery when you are trying to amass a fortune. There are wayyy better ways to get gear.
In reality, it should be a nice surprise when you are doing something you normally wouldn't need gear from and it turns into an upgrade.
Personally I love the system but unfortunately the mentality of this playerbase is contrary to a lot of design elements.

- - - Updated - - -

"Worth continuing" ? Who even wants that?! Its an excuse for Blizzard to not create items such as relics with BiS traits and people are forced to run their old raids in 2018 if this continues.

One of the key problems with classic is the lack of incentive to run content once you out gear it. This problem fixes it. Try to have an open mind. It's not forcing anyone to do anything. You do the hardest content for the best gear but if you happen to do the easier content it might have an upgrade for you if you are super lucky. You shouldn't expect it though.

[Raelbo]

The problem is that you can play 24 hours a day and still have things left to do to improve your character.

That is not a problem unless you make it a problem. It's up to you to realise that you don't need to spend 24 hours a day in the game to have fun and accomplish things. A far healthier approach is to set yourself a time limit and stick to it. Prioritise the things that for you are most important and get those done first, and ignore the other stuff that really isn't that high a priority.

Add a cap/cutoff on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. I get what you're saying, that the pool of players is so vastly different that no matter what someone will complain, but you can't possibly think that the majority of the playerbase enjoys farming 24/7.

There are caps to everything in this game. The problem is that some players believe they need to hit those caps. Those caps are there to make sure the people who want to spend the most time in the game don't run out of stuff to do. The expectation is that the vast majority of players find themselves at different points on the spectrum of how much stuff they are doing and the game allows you to have fun no matter where you sit on the spectrum.

WoD was "log on for 20 mins and you're done for the day". We went from that to "improving your character literally never ends". Previous expansions were much more balanced in that aspect, of course there were people complaining as always, but the majority was happier.

I think that people with a poor ability to moderate themselves are going to be very unhappy this expansion, while people who can self moderate and understand that they don't need to do everything are going to be very happy. Solving this problem by putting in restrictions would be a terrible solution. It would wreck the fun for people who are playing the game as it is intended in order to save people whose primary problem can be fixed by themselves.

[Borfl]

Because I'm going to keep running mythic EN in hopes a BTI will TF +40ilvls every week to be a marginal upgrade over what I have. Not worth my time at all, with my shit luck I know I'll never see it until after 7.2 comes. The legendary system and TF being absurdly random is shit for players except for those who like to incessantly grind 24/7 for marginal upgrades, then congrats you got your World of Diablo.

There's no justification that people running LFR can potentially get higher ilvl than base Mythic drops if they're lucky; it's simply fucking stupid. It's already RNG enough to get the item you want to even drop, but now you have to keep trying again until you get a decent ilvl version of it. It's just blatant shitty design that incentivizes a false hope in which you're just gambling your time in hopes of a decent reward by running old boring stale content you've done 100 times already just like Mythic+.

[Deleted]

geting Mythic ilvl titanforged set helm from normal feels rewarding i have to say. was rly happy in that moment.

[HeiAggra]

Why ppl always cry about content? Questlines and stuff takes weeks to be done. Let's imagine a single questline takes a week to make, with the story the quest make all the crap and rewards and the player will make it in 2 hours top. So how do you guys want new content all the time? It's silly. Legion is great so much to do! You can choose what to do! Raids, mythic +, pvp, everything is there just do what you enjoy and not all or you will burn yourself. As WF and TF goes i would like to have only WF with a upgrade that would go from 5 to 10 ilvls. That would be enought. But that my opinion.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The problem is that you can play 24 hours a day and still have things left to do to improve your character.

Add a cap/cutoff on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. I get what you're saying, that the pool of players is so vastly different that no matter what someone will complain, but you can't possibly think that the majority of the playerbase enjoys farming 24/7.

WoD was "log on for 20 mins and you're done for the day". We went from that to "improving your character literally never ends". Previous expansions were much more balanced in that aspect, of course there were people complaining as always, but the majority was happier.

The majority of us never farm 24/7. We do one thing today, another tomorrow, and something different next week. We don't feel compelled to do it all every time it's available. Being able to mix it up means more variety and a better overall experience (for us). The 'content glut', if that's what we wan t to call it, is only a problem for those uber competitive types who feel pressured to do everything possible every day.

[DisposableHero]

That is not a problem unless you make it a problem.

It is a problem. When every minute you spend logged in there is a way to meaningfully progress your character it makes it much more difficult to overcome a difference in available play time with skill, which has a lot of very skilled players with limited schedules sliding backwards in their progression and competitiveness compared to what they are used to, and that is a problem weather you like it or not. It diminishes the pool of prepared raid candidates mythic raiding guilds have available to recruit from, and it punishes people who want to play alts, because progression is now zero sum. The progression of your alts now detracts from the progression of your main.

This is not people having a poor ability to moderate themselves. This is the reach of players with limited time has been scaled back so players with nigh unlimited time have something to do.

On the other hand, it never bothered people to run the same raid week after week after week hoping for that elusive item. Nobody complained how 5 mans or raids are "not new content" - they just did them. Now with 4 raid difficulties, some RNG and mythic + it has become a "problem"?

The chances of obtaining "that elusive item" have decreased by multiple orders of magnitude since the time you're referring to, yes that is a problem.

[dakalro]

But that's always going to be the case for those who play a lot, right? Legion has demonstrably more content than WoD ever did, but unless Blizz releases a new expansion every WEEK, there will always be repetition for those who want to play for hours every day.

Not really since, before, you took a break between tiers. You forgot about previous raid and only played one. You could spend the other 6 days in a week playing alts, going out and generally slacking. You had a choice. Now you have to do that content to stay competitive.

It feeds on the need of the hardcore players to stay at the top, whatever that top is.

[Dekkers]

I have not had a single piece Titanforge. The chance of that happening is to incredibly tiny.

[ryanmahaffe]

Gonna weigh in here

First: Op I agree, rng titanforge keeps content relevant and combined with AP I think it is overall, good design.

As to some of the comments I have seen here... oh boy.
"Wod had no content, but legion has to much boring content" Not a relevant argument as it is 100% subjective

"Legion forces me to do things" Legion doesn't force you to do a single thing, unless you are a top end mythic raider pushing hard progression, which most of us are not. You aren't forced to do content, you could do whatever you want and any pace and you will still be at a decent pace for at least normal raids and maybe even heroic at this rate.

"Legion is such a grind" Wow is always a grind, it has always been a gear and currency treadmill, except now at cap it's more than just a primary gear treadmill, there is post cap progression. Post cap meaning that you are not meant to be maxed out, it is suppose to be pesistant throughout the expansion, deal with it.

"Legion is repetitive" WoW has always, and will always be a repetitive game, Dungeons, raids, events, dailies. Welcome to a themepark mmorpg, don't like it don't play it.

There is some truth in everything here, but these are all broad statements so just saying them doesn't give you much credibility here.

[Deleted]

That is not a problem unless you make it a problem. It's up to you to realise that you don't need to spend 24 hours a day in the game to have fun and accomplish things. A far healthier approach is to set yourself a time limit and stick to it. Prioritise the things that for you are most important and get those done first, and ignore the other stuff that really isn't that high a priority.



There are caps to everything in this game. The problem is that some players believe they need to hit those caps. Those caps are there to make sure the people who want to spend the most time in the game don't run out of stuff to do. The expectation is that the vast majority of players find themselves at different points on the spectrum of how much stuff they are doing and the game allows you to have fun no matter where you sit on the spectrum.



I think that people with a poor ability to moderate themselves are going to be very unhappy this expansion, while people who can self moderate and understand that they don't need to do everything are going to be very happy. Solving this problem by putting in restrictions would be a terrible solution. It would wreck the fun for people who are playing the game as it is intended in order to save people whose primary problem can be fixed by themselves.

I mean it always comes down to this argument, the classic "you don't need to do it". And it's been used on so many discussions that it got old too fast. When mythic raiders complain that they're forced to run multiple raid difficulties or lfr the answer is "they don't have to". When raid-wide nerfs were introduced people would say "you can turn the nerf off". Why don't you extend this argument and say stuff like "Why do you use flasks on bosses? you don't need to" or "why do you use gear to kill bosses? just kill them naked". The term "need" in a game like WoW means literally nothing.

I understand that lately there's a big portion of the playerbase just logs in, does stuff they find "fun" and log out. They do quests, lfr but never any content with chance of failure that requires self-improvement or teamwork to complete. However, the core of the game has always been about improving your character. It has nothing to do with self-moderation (obviously people who play 24/7 lack that but that's beyond the point). If your aim in this game is to progress in any meaningful way, you need to improve your character. For a lot of people, that's why this game is fun, cos you strive to get better (again obviously, learning curve also matters along with gear/ap) in order to overcome a difficult challenge.

People keep saying noone should give a fuck about raiding and that only a tiny minority is competitive and blizzard shouldn't cater to them and blablabla. There are currently 2000 guilds that have killed Trilliax and 500 guilds that killed Krosus. The cutoff is huge and do you know why? Because krosus is VERY tightly tuned and unless you have >50 traits on the majority of your raid you won't kill him. Do you know what's the typical response to that? "LUL git gud, noone cares about world 500, go farm 500 Maw of Souls if you think you're hardcore".

Caps exist to ensure the game isn't an endless grindfest and no, not everything is capped atm. You can run infinite m+ weekly and the titanforged system ensures there will always be a chance for an upgrade. The AP cap at 54 traits is basically a non-cap and with the new traits coming soon requiring double the amount of MoS runs the grind will be even worse. Caps give you a goal to aim for, they let you plan how to achieve something. With the current system there is no end. How would adding a cap "wreck the fun for people playing the game as intended" when they don't reach that cap anyway with their current playstyle?

Jinzee, who made the proper bird boss guides and raided with Consequence, quit raiding because her guild had many issues with legion analyzed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxi-qsOPbJE

Of course the average mmo-champ poster won't give a fuck but just some food for thought on what happens to many guilds atm.

[HeiAggra]

Gonna weigh in here

First: Op I agree, rng titanforge keeps content relevant and combined with AP I think it is overall, good design.

As to some of the comments I have seen here... oh boy.
"Wod had no content, but legion has to much boring content" Not a relevant argument as it is 100% subjective

"Legion forces me to do things" Legion doesn't force you to do a single thing, unless you are a top end mythic raider pushing hard progression, which most of us are not. You aren't forced to do content, you could do whatever you want and any pace and you will still be at a decent pace for at least normal raids and maybe even heroic at this rate.

"Legion is such a grind" Wow is always a grind, it has always been a gear and currency treadmill, except now at cap it's more than just a primary gear treadmill, there is post cap progression. Post cap meaning that you are not meant to be maxed out, it is suppose to be pesistant throughout the expansion, deal with it.

"Legion is repetitive" WoW has always, and will always be a repetitive game, Dungeons, raids, events, dailies. Welcome to a themepark mmorpg, don't like it don't play it.

There is some truth in everything here, but these are all broad statements so just saying them doesn't give you much credibility here.

100% this! Also before you had to farm for mats to go raid and hope in a 40 man run those 3 loot the boss would drop one would be for you. Now you get gear everywhere.