BM or MM on Nighthold fights

[Pyrophobia]

This discussion will be not what spec is better in Nighthold but if you can play both effectively what spec should one switch to and at what boss.


After investing up to 50 artifact power in what is the off-spec for me it has been bothering me when should i use it. In order to use the Off-spec to it's full potential one would need bis legendaries but that will hardly happen over night.

All this time i've been wondering should i get 3x single target relics for my BM spec or should i try to get 3x cleave relics and use it for cleave fights.
Now i got Kiljaeden's Kunning trinket and what legendary legs that i could use for BM spec (that or the neck) all the other legendaries i have are MM specific
and using the L-Trinket i am thinking maybe a 3x cleave relics is the way to go for BM and using MM on single target fights with only fast / short target switches. (got Legendary Boots/belt/ring/bracers for MM)

We are 3/10 m and will soon have to face either Spellblade or Krosus and i can't make up my mind what to do single target Krosus as MM with trickshot and what sims to be highest dps single target setup for my MM boots+trinket legendaries and 2 set or single target it with BM and then cleave spellblade with the MM belt+boots or use the 3 cleave relics i got on the BM and cleave with BM there instead of MM ....
If only we could replace relics freely once we have them

[cLax0n]

I was also having the same dilemma about choosing which spec I wanted to be for Nighthold. Ultimately, I chose BM. With the recent buffs, BM is actually really good. After finally realizing that Blizzard (Ion) isn't going to ever remove Vulnerable as a mechanic, I decided to just abandon MM.

In Heroic NH, MM and BM perform roughly the same with MM beating out BM on fights that involve multiple persisting adds/targets (Skorpyon, Spellblade, Tichondrious, High Botanist), but on any fight that has even slight movement BM wins.

BM also is more effective than MM on fights that are lengthy, and MM heavily depends on the Trueshot CD, and so if a fight lasts for an irregular duration (Trueshot CD is about to come off but fight ends).

In mythic (I am only 3/10M) BM is performing really well. For fights like Trilliax and Chrono, BM is close to top DPS while MM is close to bottom. Because the M NH bosses live longer and dodging mechanics is much more crucial, MM DPS greatly suffers while BM DPS remains unaffected.

Basically BM and MM are close in DPS. MM > BM in Heroic NH; BM > MM in Mythic NH. And if you solely go by warcraftlogs.com just know that numbers are heavily skewed due to fights like Skorpyron and Spellblade where a lot of aoe padding can occur (I know the adds have to die, but its still considered padding if cleaving off boss yields the same result).

[Pyrophobia]

As a hunter i'd like to play my hunter properly and use all the 3 specs based on the fights in order to optimize my performance and that of the raid.

That is why i want to be able to switch between BM and MM and eventually kill someone at blizz HQ for making SV a mele spec.
with a kiljaeden trinket and neck/legs as the optimal legendaries for BM that i posses and 50 artifact traits on the weapon +3 relics boosting kill command i should be able to perform nearly as good as MM spec on sims

From my experience on Scorpiron the BM spec of the fellow hunter that has 2 bis BM legendaries was doing better than me on MM spec with belt/boots. I'd probbaly beat him if i focus on the scorpions and dump the 20 belt-stacks on them rather on the scorpion with his armor on.
I don't care much for a boss that we are already killing thou.
Similar on 2-nd boss i managed to beat the BM and the other hunter that was using Meme+vulnerable build but on Trillax when all 3 of us were tasked to use the feasts and soak robots i missed a lot of dps time due to being too far or moving too much even with LnL+Trick Shot build that i am using


My main problem is the RELICS ... i want to figure out should i use 3 cleave relics or 3 single target relics. As when it is OS i can't be requesting relics to replace them for x Boss and then again for Y boss .... Relics ilvl might not be that important for BM but it still matters so don't want to be using 860 ones for mythic NH ...

Seems to me it might be better to use the 3 cleave relics as they alone will be buffing the cleave significantly and thus increasing effectiveness by a lot in cleave situations and then i could use the MM spec for single target or fights like botanist where i don't have to switch that much and can stack the belt procs high. (For comparison on our last HC kill i was only slightly behind the 3 shadow priests on Botanist)
The alternative will be using 3 single target relics and use BM on single target fights and use the belt/boots MM spec for aoe fights and focus on adds at all times.

I was hoping for someone with more experience in playing both specs and with more experience in NH mythic to share his thoughts on what spec will be better on boss per boss basis.
Again the main question to me is what to pick Single target MM + cleave BM or Cleave MM and single target BM
And where to use them on bosses.

[Deleted]

You're not raiding on the cutting edge of progression, otherwise you wouldn't be asking this question, so it doesn't matter. BM isn't structurally underperforming compared to both MM and other ranged DPS specs, so you'll be fine with either spec.

I'm playing BM because of how mobile it is. Ever since I played Ele Shaman in SoO, KC Warlock in MoP and 4set MM in HFC, I have a weakness for 100% mobile DPS specs during progression.

[Pyrophobia]

i am not raiding on the cutting edge but if i have invested in 2x 54 artifact power and have enough legendaries to make both specs work why can't i optimize the one for 1 task and the other for 2-nd and use both.

The problem is i am not sure what to optimize for what task. If we could switch out relics freely with ones we posses and reuse them after i would test different setups and know but i have to do that with sims and asking around what other ppl think.

Right now i got 3x single target relics in the BM build and even thou it's on 50 artifact power level it sims out on single target as 672k where my MM L&L/Trickshot build sims to 696k and True Aim / Trickshot to 721

The problem with True Aim - Trickshot is that i will not be able to switch to anything other than the main target and that's not how mythic raiding works so L&L spec is what i use most of the time

I just want to use both specs and potentially be more useful in the progression ... from 4-th to the last boss.

[Kirbypro]

Well...another consideration also is relics, if your guild wants to give you 2x the relics compared to other DPS so you can dual spec, I guess you can make it work. I know its not going to pass in my guild b/c its still progression and everybody needs every relic.

The two specs are pretty close I think. Play whichever one you want. Its basically all about movement. BM target switching is not "that" bad these days, most bosses BM have not problems target switching. BM is basically a melee spec for Krosus b/c badly placed imps are soooooooo far away that it not worth it to switch over.

[Pyrophobia]

Well my guild won't just hand me the relics i need to use the BM spec effectively on it's max but when i roll for OS i could win those relics. Point is when i ask for that relic for OS that i am going to use in raid and nobody needs it for MS guildies might pass it once or twice and that is enough to get the 3 relics needed ... or i can switch to BM loot spec from now on and get them from other sources.

the point is to make up my mind where i want to use BM so i can get the proper relics. If i want to use it in most Cleave fights then it's important to have 3 cleave relics then i can use an aoe stomp etc. build and just do other tasks while keeping cleave up 24/7

[Makro]

I think you should just stick to MM, considering your legendaries. You can maybe switch to BM for Elisande, in which case I'd favor ST relics.

[Cedrin]

I think you should just stick to MM, considering your legendaries. You can maybe switch to BM for Elisande, in which case I'd favor ST relics.

I only use single target relics with BM. There is plenty of AoE without using furious swipes. Some do like to run one swipes relic but it's not needed. I play BM on all fights very effectively.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not that important to use any cleave relics in my opinion. Also I don't think many top logs if any are using cleave relics.

[Absoul]

High movement only handicaps MM if you are relying on aimed shots for your main source of deeps.

On high movement fights like Elissandre I am running LNL/explosive/piercing/voley build (with 2p and fury of the burning sky) as most of the casts will be instant but it does rely on having multi target in the fight to pull competitive numbers. My logs arent amazing but I occasionally get epic and legendary parses with this build.
I actually use this build for all NH fights except Skrillex, Krosus and Star (I run trickshot/patient sniper/crows with 4p for those fights)

my BM spec is not up to par but I did try H Eli with it and loved the high mobility

[ydraw]

i am not raiding on the cutting edge but if i have invested in 2x 54 artifact power and have enough legendaries to make both specs work why can't i optimize the one for 1 task and the other for 2-nd and use both.

The problem is i am not sure what to optimize for what task. If we could switch out relics freely with ones we posses and reuse them after i would test different setups and know but i have to do that with sims and asking around what other ppl think.

Right now i got 3x single target relics in the BM build and even thou it's on 50 artifact power level it sims out on single target as 672k where my MM L&L/Trickshot build sims to 696k and True Aim / Trickshot to 721

The problem with True Aim - Trickshot is that i will not be able to switch to anything other than the main target and that's not how mythic raiding works so L&L spec is what i use most of the time

I just want to use both specs and potentially be more useful in the progression ... from 4-th to the last boss.

IMO, MM is the superior AOE spec, while BM is better for ST fights with movement. MM is one of the top specs for the AOE fights on Warcraft logs while BM is middling.

So if I was you I'd optimise BM for Single Target and play MM for AOE fights. Which means getting KC relics for your BM weapon.