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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Why are their kids getting to goto a school MY tax dollars pay for, but yet they couldn't come here LEGALLY and PAY taxes too?!

    This doesn't seem habitually wrong to you??
    Look through OP's posting history. The only reason they post crap like this is to feel relevant through virtue signaling (LOOK AT MY POSTS AND HOW I CALL ATTENTION TO IT! I OBVIOUSLY CARE ABOUT THE "OPPRESSED"!). I wish the moderators would finally put an end to it and just permaban OP for this constant flow of uselessness that's meant to inflame attitudes

  2. #362
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samitsu View Post
    As a person with a great education, who's never been on welfare, never been arrested, or not even had a parking ticket, but can not get into the US to work due to strict immigration laws, I see this move against illegals as pure justice. Why should they be rewarded with a good life in the US for doing something illegal when there's thousands of us who try to go the legal route just to be constantly rejected?

    Do we want a society where crime pays?
    No, ideally we want one where laws are just and serve the general good. I.e. one where shitheaded immigration policies like this aren't extant.

    I got in to the US legally and became a citizen at tremendous expense, and the fact that you can't muster up empathy because 'they stole your place in the queue' is laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    No, ideally we want one where laws are just and serve the general good. I.e. one where shitheaded immigration policies like this aren't extant.

    I got in to the US legally and became a citizen at tremendous expense, and the fact that you can't muster up empathy because 'they stole your place in the queue' is laughable.
    I never said they "stole my place", it's not gonna be easier for me to get in legally if they throw out illegals, but it just shows that there is actually some justice for us who follow the rules.

    What's laughable is someone who asks for empathy for people who break the law just to get what they want the most.

  4. #364
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samitsu View Post
    I never said they "stole my place", it's not gonna be easier for me to get in legally if they throw out illegals, but it just shows that there is actually some justice for us who follow the rules.
    There is no justice to be had in deporting a working mother of two citizens, nor in creating an environment where people are risking frostbite or hypothermia to flee ICE.

    What you call 'justice' is actually just good old spite.

    What's laughable is someone who asks for empathy for people who break the law just to get what they want the most.
    Largely because I do not view the law as this monolith of timeless ideals but rather as an often flawed instrument that needs to be actively tailored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There is no justice to be had in deporting a working mother of two citizens, nor in creating an environment where people are risking frostbite or hypothermia to flee ICE.
    There is justice is sending someone back to their home country when they illegally enter and stay in a different country. Like you, they can do it legally. Doesn't matter that they ahve 2 kids. They created their own environment with their illegal actions.

    Now they must deal with the consequences.

    What you call 'justice' is actually just good old spite.
    What you call spite, is really just upholding the law. If you don't want ot be subjected to the punishment, I'd suggest you or anyone not break another countries laws.

    Largely because I do not view the law as this monolith of timeless ideals but rather as an often flawed instrument that needs to be actively tailored.
    Nothing wrong with adjustments and realignments of laws which is whats going on right now it seems but if you are in the U.S. illegally and have a criminal record, you might want to gather your things and be prepared.

    Those that are here illegally might want to do the same because you could get caught in the same net that catches all the other illegal fish.
    Last edited by quras; 2017-02-13 at 09:30 PM.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There is no justice to be had in deporting a working mother of two citizens, nor in creating an environment where people are risking frostbite or hypothermia to flee ICE.

    What you call 'justice' is actually just good old spite.



    Largely because I do not view the law as this monolith of timeless ideals but rather as an often flawed instrument that needs to be actively tailored.
    I call justice upholding the law. What's the point in having laws if we just pick and chose based on feels?

  7. #367
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    There is justice is sending someone back to their home country when they illegally enter and stay in a different country. Like you, they can do it legally. Doesn't matter that they ahve 2 kids. They created their own environment with their illegal actions.

    Now they must deal with the consequences.
    First off, most of them do enter legally. They just remain after their entry documents expire - which, I'm happy to inform you, is about as illegal as jaywalking.

    Secondly, none of these immigrants have the luxury of being an upper class Australian being sponsored by a globally spanning corporation. I have no illusions about the level of privilege I was given in terms of immigration consideration.

    Thirdly, the US has a vested interest in the wellbeing of its citizens up and to the point of granting amnesty to an undocumented mother who is providing care to her citizen children.

    What you call spite, is really just upholding the law. If you don't want ot be subjected to the punishment, I'd suggest you not break the law.
    Which apparently negates any analysis of whether the law itself is effective and/or just.

    Nothing wrong with adjustments and realignments of laws which is whats going on right now it seems but if you are in the U.S. illegally and have a criminal record, you might want to gather your things and be prepared.

    Those that are here illegally might want to do the same because you could get caught in the same net that catches all the other illegal fish.
    Do you honestly see nothing wrong in a situation where government policy is instigating mass panic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    I call justice upholding the law. What's the point in having laws if we just pick and chose based on feels?
    If I managed to successfully pass a law that being a political independent merited castration, would you be the first to go and get the snip?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post

    If I managed to successfully pass a law that being a political independent merited castration, would you be the first to go and get the snip?
    Nice hyperbole, I think I will deal in reality.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Nice hyperbole, I think I will deal in reality.
    Yeah. I mean there's never been an instance where someone like, say, the father of modern computing has been forced to undergo something like chemical castration owing to his personal inclinations.

    Why don't you answer the question. Would you follow a law that is clearly unjust and damaging to your person?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    the rich do get off easy. i've never said anything about them, but obviously they do need to be brought to heel.

    but the fucking reality is that there's no reason to break the law. don't you goddamned tell me i'm lying. i'd bet what money i got that you have more than i do. i've broken the law once, and that's because i was a stupid teenager. other than that, we have no reason to break the law, and there will never be a reason to break the fucking law. if you see an excuse to, it's because you're just looking for a fucking excuse to. there's never a legitimate excuse to.
    Hope you don't break the law and download music, videos, games, mangas or whatever for 'free'. Cause you are good and don't break the law and pay for everything.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    First off, most of them do enter legally. They just remain after their entry documents expire - which, I'm happy to inform you, is about as illegal as jaywalking.
    Not at that time it is not. Especially so if they have another criminal record listed. You can down play that all you want but when a non-citizen goes from legal to illegal. There is a problem. Do it the right way or go home.

    Secondly, none of these immigrants have the luxury of being an upper class Australian being sponsored by a globally spanning corporation. I have no illusions about the level of privilege I was given in terms of immigration consideration.
    Then they will have to work for that citizenship status. It will not be handed to them. There level of privileged does not in any way mean immigrants that come into the U.S. illegally or stay past their allotted time somehow get a free pass on the procedure to become a citizen. All countries should have these measures.

    Thirdly, the US has a vested interest in the wellbeing of its citizens up and to the point of granting amnesty to an undocumented mother who is providing care to her citizen children.
    She can take her children with her/him or the children will be taken care of in the services that said country already has in place. If they did not want to deal with that then don't break the immigration laws.

    If you do not break the law in these cases, then you really wont be affected by the punishment. The illegal parents actions caused the grief, just like when other criminals go to jail and separate families. Let preach about not breaking the laws that are currently in place.

    Which apparently negates any analysis of whether the law itself is effective and/or just.
    No, it's jsut the current law at hand. Till it's changed thats the one we'll go by.

    Do you honestly see nothing wrong in a situation where government policy is instigating mass panic.
    I have no problem instilling fear in criminals that break a countries laws. I have no problem with criminals being worried they might get caught.

    If I managed to successfully pass a law that being a political independent merited castration, would you be the first to go and get the snip?
    When that passes into law then we can have that discussion. Otherwise, it's of no use here in the reality of the situation.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Yeah. I mean there's never been an instance where someone like, say, the father of modern computing has been forced to undergo something like chemical castration owing to his personal inclinations.

    Why don't you answer the question. Would you follow a law that is clearly unjust and damaging to your person?
    Here's a better example

    There is an EXISTING law that says I go to jail if I don't pay my taxes
    I refuse to pay my taxes

    Should I go to jail or should the government let me stay with my family? You know because of feels.


    You act as if there wasn't already a known law or consequences already in place for breaking said law.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Not at that time it is not. Especially so if they have another criminal record listed. You can down play that all you want but when a non-citizen goes from legal to illegal. There is a problem. Do it the right way or go home.
    With all the bitching conservatives do about welfare queens I'm surprised you take such issue with people breaking the law in order to work.

    Then they will have to work for that citizenship status. It will not be handed to them. There level of privileged does not in any way mean immigrants that come into the U.S. illegally or stay past their allotted time somehow get a free pass on the procedure to become a citizen. All countries should have these measures.
    Because you say so, right?

    Please, do point out the demonstrable benefit in the current immigration policy.

    She can take her children with her/him or the children will be taken care of in the services that said country already has in place. If they did not want to deal with that then don't break the immigration laws.
    They are US citizens.

    If you do not break the law in these cases, then you really wont be affected by the punishment. The illegal parents actions caused the grief, just like when other criminals go to jail and separate families. Let preach about not breaking the laws that are currently in place.
    No, I'd rather point out that law is unjust and should be changed.

    No, it's jsut the current law at hand. Till it's changed thats the one we'll go by.
    Makes it easier to avoid actually having to think, right?

    I have no problem instilling fear in criminals that break a countries laws. I have no problem with criminals being worried they might get caught.
    The vast majority of these people have only the committed the crime of something like ID fraud and have been otherwise positively contributing to the welfare of this country.

    But, as I said. Most anti-immigration folks' closest experience to a violent Mexican is an overly spicy Chipotle bowl.

    When that passes into law then we can have that discussion. Otherwise, it's of no use here in the reality of the situation.
    Hint: I chose castration because of a specific case which required a government pardon in the UK recently.

    What's your problem with thought experiments?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Here's a better example

    There is an EXISTING law that says I go to jail if I don't pay my taxes
    I refuse to pay my taxes

    Should I go to jail or should the government let me stay with my family? You know because of feels.

    You act as if there wasn't already a known law or consequences already in place for breaking said law.
    Implying the existence of taxation is somehow bad.

    Or are you going to bitch about how it's theft or whatever bullshit passes for Libertarian these days?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #374
    Deleted
    People who enter a country illegally 100% know what they're doing and the risks that it can incur down the line, so anyone complaining has no sympathy from me. A country cannot allow just anyone to enter or leave as they see fit for many reasons (such as security, checking criminal backgrounds as they enter etc.), and this must be enforced.

    The law must be upheld, if people don't like it then they can find ways through the proper channels to try and change it.
    Also, people entering illegally and thus breaking the law, receiving penalties and becoming criminals (yes, that is what they are) does nothing but damage their cause as off the bat it shows that they are not willing to follow the laws of the country they wish to enter.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post

    No, I'd rather point out that law is unjust and should be changed.

    The vast majority of these people have only the committed the crime of something like ID fraud and have been otherwise positively contributing to the welfare of this country.

    Except the original article in the other thread (not this fucked up feels thread) pointed out that 150/160 of these people were breaking other laws like child sex crimes and weapons charges. So 10 illegal immigrants got caught in the net that were doing nothing wrong at all. Except stealing someones SSN, evading taxes, and being here illegally.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ts-behind-bars


    I am not clear what law you want changed, but you keep bringing up some make believe mother of US citizens. So you want to change the law so that parents that cross the border and a day later drop a baby within the US should be able to stay?
    Yeah that will not be taken advantage of or anything.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vultahn View Post
    People who enter a country illegally 100% know what they're doing and the risks that it can incur down the line, so anyone complaining has no sympathy from me. A country cannot allow just anyone to enter or leave as they see fit for many reasons (such as security, checking criminal backgrounds as they enter etc.), and this must be enforced.

    The law must be upheld, if people don't like it then they can find ways through the proper channels to try and change it.
    Also, people entering illegally and thus breaking the law, receiving penalties and becoming criminals (yes, that is what they are) does nothing but damage their cause as off the bat it shows that they are not willing to follow the laws of the country they wish to enter.
    Yes. Everyone knows that in order to break the law and get away with it you have to either be a cop or have a net income of at least two hundred thousand a year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Molis View Post
    Except the original article in the other thread (not this fucked up feels thread) pointed out that 150/160 of these people were breaking other laws like child sex crimes and weapons charges. So 10 illegal immigrants got caught in the net that were doing nothing wrong at all. Except stealing someones SSN, evading taxes, and being here illegally.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ts-behind-bars


    I am not clear what law you want changed, but you keep bringing up some make believe mother of US citizens. So you want to change the law so that parents that cross the border and a day later drop a baby within the US should be able to stay?
    Yeah that will not be taken advantage of or anything.
    If you are born on US soil you are a US citizen, that is the law. Which I am perfectly okay with.

    By all means, keep arguing that 'the law is the law' rather than actually using your brain and question -why- the law needs to be that way or what benefit it cultivates.

    I'm wary of these attempts because it's one step away from how Australians treat their undocumented immigrants. I.e. brutally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    I'm not denying that. However it doesn't mean we should lose our humanity.
    What is humane about exploiting illegal aliens?

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    What is humane about exploiting illegal aliens?
    Nothing. But that would involve punishing corporations and we can't have that because big government or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    These people are desperate. Barely scraping together a living and yes, paying taxes. Aren't they what we want in our country?
    Then invite them to Canada, but wait, Canada's immigration laws wont let them in, will they?

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  20. #380
    Where they have it wrong is they are not taking jobs Americans don't want, they are taking jobs that Americans cant have if they don't take pay below the legal level.

    Corrupt businesses employing illegals well below the legal pay level are just as guilty as the illegals themselves.

    There is also the problem of LEGAL work visa immigrants shorting themselves and driving down the wages, as an example, here in Canada the trucking industry was devastated by visa truckers would come over here, work their asses off, work over the legal hours limit, not follow speed laws, not keep their trucks up to safety standards and just drive hoping not to get pulled over until their visas were over, go home and the void was filled with a new VISA trucker, a lot of people died and truckers went from 120k-150k in the 80s/90s to less then minimum wage.

    Now wages are so low and the laws are so strict there is a serious shortage of truckers up here. no one wants to spend their life of the road doing a stressful job for mcdonalds level wages.

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