Vengeance "Fueled By Pain"

[Delimit]

It's coming from... reality? We're certainly balanced around our Meta uptime. Just like a Paladin is balanced around having Guardian of Ancient Kings, we're balanced around having Metamorphosis; and that includes the random uptime provided by the trait. Everything is "just one" something. "Just one" ability, "just one" talent, "just one" stat. Saying "just one" doesn't really mean anything.

If we did not have that trait and did not have the random spikes in maximum HP, armor, and the leech gain, would we not need some sort of buff to compensate for this? We most certainly would, because right now we're balanced/tuned/[whatever word you want to use] around having that proc.

If our tanking spec were completely whole and functioned beautifully without FbP ever existing, if there were no problems and everybody was happy, and then they randomly added FbP... that'd be one thing. It would PURELY be a bonus and wouldn't hurt anything. If it never went off, who cares? If it did, nice and pretty bonus! That's not the case. We rely on its uptime to compensate for our overall damage taken per hit, our overall avoidance gaps, our mediocre/lack of effective defensive abilities, and our "take more damage but heal it up afterwards" design.

Saying that we're (we, being Vengeance mains) "balanced around" implies that the entire spec revolves around FbP, it's just not that impactful. Could it have some influence? Possibly. The entire spec being tuned around 1 RPPM from a single RNG trait? Doubtful. What you described is exactly how it already works, since it already functions as a bonus. You could literally never get a FbP proc and be fine. Play the spec like it doesn't exist and be fine. While I don't put a lot of stock into Blizzards balancing team lately, I would give them enough credit to believe that they aren't stupid enough to be basing the entire spec around a single trait with an RNG proc of 1 RPPM.

[Extremity]

Saying that we're (we, being Vengeance mains) "balanced around" implies that the entire spec revolves around FbP, it's just not that impactful. Could it have some influence? Possibly. The entire spec being tuned around 1 RPPM from a single RNG trait? Doubtful. What you described is exactly how it already works, since it already functions as a bonus. You could literally never get a FbP proc and be fine. Play the spec like it doesn't exist and be fine. While I don't put a lot of stock into Blizzards balancing team lately, I would give them enough credit to believe that they aren't stupid enough to be basing the entire spec around a single trait with an RNG proc of 1 RPPM.

"Balanced around" is not the same as "balanced solely around". You are "balanced" around the fact that immolation aura can generate a soul fragment when you take that talent.

My point is that you cannot treat FbP as some freebie that has zero implications. Because we have periods of high armor and higher health, we are balanced accordingly and are less "powerful" in other areas. If you take the periods of high health/armor into account and look at our overall effective health as an average, it is increased because of that. If not for it, we would need a buff to that fight-long average from another source. To be balanced around, regardless of how much or how little, something you have absolutely zero control over, it goes against not only everything players expect from a tanking class, but against what Blizzard has SPECIFICALLY said they want tanking classes to be like. If you want RNG and the inability to control the most important aspects of your toon, you should play an RNG-heavy DPS or something. Tanking is, has always been, and always should be about control.

The point isn't that you could be fine without one, the point is that we're already lacking compared to other tanks in terms of defensives; to take now our best one and have a MAJORITY of its uptime be completely out of our hands is stupid. It's worthless half the time it procs and many times leads to unpredictable damage intake. On top of that, for a healer to be effective at healing a DH tank they need to monitor and be aware of our random proc's uptime; while that's not especially difficult, it's still asking more of a healer, and asking them to do extra work for one tanking class that they don't have to do for ANY other, for very little gain. It's not really surprising why most groups out there prefer most other tanks to Demon Hunters. If a group is looking for a tank and three types apply, one of which is DH, that DH is probably not getting picked. Some like them, some think they're fine, and I'm not saying we can't tank everything and do well - I'm saying that we're far enough into the expansion that the general consensus IS relevant, and for a reason. If you're going to tell me you'd rather take a DH tank over a bear to progression content, I'd probably accuse you of lying.

[Tinary]

My point is that you cannot treat FbP as some freebie that has zero implications. Because we have periods of high armor and higher health, we are balanced accordingly and are less "powerful" in other areas. If you take the periods of high health/armor into account and look at our overall effective health as an average, it is increased because of that. If not for it, we would need a buff to that fight-long average from another source. To be balanced around, regardless of how much or how little, something you have absolutely zero control over, it goes against not only everything players expect from a tanking class, but against what Blizzard has SPECIFICALLY said they want tanking classes to be like. If you want RNG and the inability to control the most important aspects of your toon, you should play an RNG-heavy DPS or something. Tanking is, has always been, and always should be about control.

The point isn't that you could be fine without one, the point is that we're already lacking compared to other tanks in terms of defensives; to take now our best one and have a MAJORITY of its uptime be completely out of our hands is stupid. It's worthless half the time it procs and many times leads to unpredictable damage intake. On top of that, for a healer to be effective at healing a DH tank they need to monitor and be aware of our random proc's uptime; while that's not especially difficult, it's still asking more of a healer, and asking them to do extra work for one tanking class that they don't have to do for ANY other, for very little gain. It's not really surprising why most groups out there prefer most other tanks to Demon Hunters. If a group is looking for a tank and three types apply, one of which is DH, that DH is probably not getting picked. Some like them, some think they're fine, and I'm not saying we can't tank everything and do well - I'm saying that we're far enough into the expansion that the general consensus IS relevant, and for a reason. If you're going to tell me you'd rather take a DH tank over a bear to progression content, I'd probably accuse you of lying.

If you are not one of those who think that only progression is mythic then yes, I take DH over bear, mainly cause I play them both and I just like DH kit more.
Secondly, almost every tank spec has a damn RNG golden trait
Blood: Skeletal shattering http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192558/skeletal-shattering
Guardian: Adaptive fur http://www.wowhead.com/spell=200850/adaptive-fur
Prot: Dragon scales http://www.wowhead.com/spell=203576/dragon-scales and also Scales of earth http://www.wowhead.com/spell=189064/scales-of-earth
Monk doesnt have but his entire spec is based around RNG dodge which mastery reduces but still.
Prot pala I dont know, but according to the wowhead that spec doesnt also.

Out of those, our is pretty good. It can be a waste but so can those and its fine. Control is fine but spec does need to have a RNG, otherwise its boring. You could also argue that self-healing tanks shouldnt have a chance to crit heals since its out of your control to know when you will heal yourself too much. If you wished to play a RNG less tank where you have total control over the dmg intake and such, guardian would be good for you. Tho I do agree that it would be much better trait if you could control the activation, sadly then we would be balanced around that we can control our proc meta and our defensive stuff would prolly be reduced.

[Extremity]

If you are not one of those who think that only progression is mythic then yes, I take DH over bear, mainly cause I play them both and I just like DH kit more.
Secondly, almost every tank spec has a damn RNG golden trait
Blood: Skeletal shattering http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192558/skeletal-shattering
Guardian: Adaptive fur http://www.wowhead.com/spell=200850/adaptive-fur
Prot: Dragon scales http://www.wowhead.com/spell=203576/dragon-scales and also Scales of earth http://www.wowhead.com/spell=189064/scales-of-earth
Monk doesnt have but his entire spec is based around RNG dodge which mastery reduces but still.
Prot pala I dont know, but according to the wowhead that spec doesnt also.

Out of those, our is pretty good. It can be a waste but so can those and its fine. Control is fine but spec does need to have a RNG, otherwise its boring. You could also argue that self-healing tanks shouldnt have a chance to crit heals since its out of your control to know when you will heal yourself too much. If you wished to play a RNG less tank where you have total control over the dmg intake and such, guardian would be good for you. Tho I do agree that it would be much better trait if you could control the activation, sadly then we would be balanced around that we can control our proc meta and our defensive stuff would prolly be reduced.

Dude, you're missing the point. You're saying "our proc is better" like it's a good thing. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, OURS IS GOOD. It doesn't matter if you have some minor little defensive proc. It matters when a MAJOR SOURCE of your damage reduction and overall cooldowns CANNOT be controlled. If you took EVERYTHING from a Protection Warrior aside from Shield Wall and some minor "10% less magic damage for 5 seconds" crap or whatever it is, made Shield Wall less effective, made it so 60+% of their Shield Wall uptime was random and out of their control, balanced them around having this random uptime, and the Warrior took more damage than other tanks when Shield Wall was *not* active... those Warriors would not be happy.

If it were a crappy proc that was meaningless and on top of that we had reliably defensives that weren't limited to a single target, that'd be okay. We don't.

[Munkky]

Hmm, something with 1rppm that procs a third to half the time when you aren't tanking is a MAJOR SOURCE of our mitigation and survivability? That sounds a bit Extreme. Meta itself is strong, however the 5 seconds that procs sometimes when you are tanking is definitely not huge, especially due to not taking Soul Rending nearly as much anymore. The devs know its not that strong, probably why its getting buffed in 7.2. The proc itself isn't necessarily meaningless, however on everything besides using Soul Rending and going with no healer, it definitely isn't worth of being a big piece of spec balance. It's more of a "fun" proc with some benefit.

[Tinary]

Demon spikes is pretty good defensive, Empowered wards are pretty good also, Meta itself is pretty good. Fiery brand is meh but otherwise I fail to see how this is a bad thing and how our spec is balanced around it. Yesh, we have a random 5 sec meta per minute but I doubt this is why we are so bad at some encounters, we are bad cause its the take damage, then heal spec not mitigate as much as you can. FpB is not our MAJOR SOURCE of damage reduction, its 15 sec per 3 min and all it does is what, like 20% psyhical damage reduction, maybe bit more. Increased health is not reduction, it just means you have more room to manuver. Explain me please how we are balanced around it? Veng DH takes 20% less psyhical damage for random 15 seconds out of 3 min and has 30% more hp, lets make it so that for another 165 seconds they take increased damage? Doubt it. It was designed as a pain gain/fun talent but I dont remember where I read that, will see if I can dig up bout that when I get home from work.

[Delimit]

"Balanced around" is not the same as "balanced solely around". You are "balanced" around the fact that immolation aura can generate a soul fragment when you take that talent.

My point is that you cannot treat FbP as some freebie that has zero implications. Because we have periods of high armor and higher health, we are balanced accordingly and are less "powerful" in other areas. If you take the periods of high health/armor into account and look at our overall effective health as an average, it is increased because of that. If not for it, we would need a buff to that fight-long average from another source. To be balanced around, regardless of how much or how little, something you have absolutely zero control over, it goes against not only everything players expect from a tanking class, but against what Blizzard has SPECIFICALLY said they want tanking classes to be like. If you want RNG and the inability to control the most important aspects of your toon, you should play an RNG-heavy DPS or something. Tanking is, has always been, and always should be about control.

The point isn't that you could be fine without one, the point is that we're already lacking compared to other tanks in terms of defensives; to take now our best one and have a MAJORITY of its uptime be completely out of our hands is stupid. It's worthless half the time it procs and many times leads to unpredictable damage intake. On top of that, for a healer to be effective at healing a DH tank they need to monitor and be aware of our random proc's uptime; while that's not especially difficult, it's still asking more of a healer, and asking them to do extra work for one tanking class that they don't have to do for ANY other, for very little gain. It's not really surprising why most groups out there prefer most other tanks to Demon Hunters. If a group is looking for a tank and three types apply, one of which is DH, that DH is probably not getting picked. Some like them, some think they're fine, and I'm not saying we can't tank everything and do well - I'm saying that we're far enough into the expansion that the general consensus IS relevant, and for a reason. If you're going to tell me you'd rather take a DH tank over a bear to progression content, I'd probably accuse you of lying.

Unless you're at the very edge of min/maxing the spec, you can and should treat FbP as a "freebie". You're a Havoc main, who is going to get far more of an improvement out of simply playing the spec better than you are worrying about few seconds of a buff that has little impact on your overall survival. Healers absolutely do not need to keep track of our FbP procs to be "effective".

The "general consensus" around FbP, is that it's fine. Any negative perception about the spec has never had anything to do with FbP. This is a non issue.

[Rev21Sihx]

I've done more than a few M+, not once has a healer ever mentioned FbP procs. I don't mean this as a insult, but you've done practically no dungeons and don't raid, where are you getting all of these healer whispers from, complaining about FbP? Battlegrounds? WQ? What content are you doing that this single trait is becoming an issue for you?

I have run every Heroic, Mythic and 10m and 25m Emerald Nightmare. I have run them as Main Tank. Where are you getting this info?

- - - Updated - - -

Dude, you're missing the point. You're saying "our proc is better" like it's a good thing. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, OURS IS GOOD. It doesn't matter if you have some minor little defensive proc. It matters when a MAJOR SOURCE of your damage reduction and overall cooldowns CANNOT be controlled. If you took EVERYTHING from a Protection Warrior aside from Shield Wall and some minor "10% less magic damage for 5 seconds" crap or whatever it is, made Shield Wall less effective, made it so 60+% of their Shield Wall uptime was random and out of their control, balanced them around having this random uptime, and the Warrior took more damage than other tanks when Shield Wall was *not* active... those Warriors would not be happy.

If it were a crappy proc that was meaningless and on top of that we had reliably defensives that weren't limited to a single target, that'd be okay. We don't.

Again, I agree with this. It doesn't have to be considered a problem just because it is currently a benefit. It is the way it us used and they way that is currently in the game compared to other tanks survival.

The spec cannot be played like "It doesn't exist" when it changes our form visually, it changes out rotation (Super Shear) and it puts on hold other abilities to spam into our soul creation and soul absorption.

*EDIT* Added in tanking info up top.

[Delimit]

I have run every Heroic, Mythic and 10m and 25m Emerald Nightmare. Where are you getting this info?

The armory of the character that you keep you cross posting this with on bnet forums, (where it was subsequently downvoted and buried) the one that has a single clear of Normal EN and hasn't even gone through the dungeons on heroic, and only just completed your first +2 dungeon in time within the last day. (10m and 25m? That's not even a thing anymore) I don't care about your progress, (complete lack of) only the fact that I question where you're having all these issues with a single trait that is causing you to post this identical thread in 3 different forums.

[Munkky]

Again, I agree with this. It doesn't have to be considered a problem just because it is currently a benefit. It is the way it us used and they way that is currently in the game compared to other tanks survival.

The spec cannot be played like "It doesn't exist" when it changes our form visually, it changes out rotation (Super Shear) and it puts on hold other abilities to spam into our soul creation and soul absorption.

For the second part, you just don't use cds during it, thats all it really changes. If you can get severs in then sure, but its not that important, you only get 4 or so GCDs into it anyway.

On the first part, if it isn't a problem, then why make multiple threads to get a discussion going on why FBP is a problem?

[shanthi]

Yeah, but comparing a major part of our spec, that we're quite literally balanced around, to a trinket is kind of the problem is it not?

We're "balanced around" everything, but FbP is a minor perk. If you completely removed it from Vengeance, the spec would be only imperceptibly weaker. Munkky's description of it as a "fun" thing seems about right. It adds a very little bit of extra power, but it's more thematic than anything.

[Rev21Sihx]

We're "balanced around" everything, but FbP is a minor perk. If you completely removed it from Vengeance, the spec would be only imperceptibly weaker. Munkky's description of it as a "fun" thing seems about right. It adds a very little bit of extra power, but it's more thematic than anything.

That is the literally definition of a discussion. Most people posting here are coming with ideas to make it better if it were removed, or to change the current iteration.

The armory of the character that you keep you cross posting this with on bnet forums, (where it was subsequently downvoted and buried) the one that has a single clear of Normal EN and hasn't even gone through the dungeons on heroic, and only just completed your first +2 dungeon in time within the last day. (10m and 25m? That's not even a thing anymore) I don't care about your progress, (complete lack of) only the fact that I question where you're having all these issues with a single trait that is causing you to post this identical thread in 3 different forums.

I am not sure what has made you so obsessed with me as to be monitoring my posts, but the information you have posted there is incorrect. My armory does not even show this. Did you look at the right character?

I would really like to keep this on-topic. My character has nothing to do with this ability, or the concerns brought up by multiple posters here. I have only made a single post about this in the official forums in the 7.2 section under the recommended changes area, which is where it would belong to bring attention to if other people agreed, or had similar issues with the ability. If there are other posts, or characters then this is an imposter, or someone who closely has my name.

My post was not downvoted, almost no one posted in the topic at all. Are you sure you aren't getting me confused with another character? Regardless, that has no merit here; and frankly that is very poor forum etiquette to resort to that to try to silence me.

I understand if you don't agree if this is an issue, or if you like the ability. But all we are doing is discussing it's viability and this is not hurting, or affecting you in any way.

I encourage you to discuss this in a more civil way and bring up some topics, or points as to why this WOULD be a bad idea, as opposed to what we are discussing.

[Delimit]

I am not sure what has made you so obsessed with me as to be monitoring my posts, but the information you have posted there is incorrect. My armory does not even show this. Did you look at the right character?

I would really like to keep this on-topic. My character has nothing to do with this ability, or the concerns brought up by multiple posters here. I have only made a single post about this in the official forums in the 7.2 section under the recommended changes area, which is where it would belong to bring attention to if other people agreed, or had similar issues with the ability. If there are other posts, or characters then this is an imposter, or someone who closely has my name.

My post was not downvoted, almost no one posted in the topic at all. Are you sure you aren't getting me confused with another character? Regardless, that has no merit here; and frankly that is very poor forum etiquette to resort to that to try to silence me.

I understand if you don't agree if this is an issue, or if you like the ability. But all we are doing is discussing it's viability and this is not hurting, or affecting you in any way.

There is no confusion or incorrect information, the armory is public. (useful for context in how/why someone is having issues) Seeing your threads being posted in the forums that I visit daily, isn't "monitoring" your post. You copy/pasted the same overstated/exaggerated post here, in the Vengeance Bnet section, and in the PTR section, all on the same day. Both posts on Bnet were downvoted, and hardly anyone posted in either of them. Making wild exaggerations and then dismissing any counter points to the contrary is also pretty poor "forum etiquette". May I remind you that you're the one who brought up how often this was being posted in other forums, which prompted me to go back specifically to look for your claimed "lot of us", to make sure that I wasn't missing this sudden influx of players having issues with the trait or healers struggling to heal because of it. The only post was yours. It seems that people like it the way that it is, and it appears to be a non-issue.

The ability is thematically bound to the spec, and isn't likely to be removed. Looking forward to the new traits that keep us in Meta form for even longer.

[shanthi]

That is the literally definition of a discussion. Most people posting here are coming with ideas to make it better if it were removed, or to change the current iteration.

I don't understand why you thought that was in any way relevant to what I said. What is literally the definition of discussion?

[Rev21Sihx]

I don't understand why you thought that was in any way relevant to what I said. What is literally the definition of discussion?

I never meant to quote you, I was speaking to the end of Munkky's post. I am sorry for the post confusion.

if it isn't a problem, then why make multiple threads to get a discussion going on why FBP is a problem?

- - - Updated - - -

Looking forward to the new traits that keep us in Meta form for even longer.

As am I, Maybe this ability will be more useful then.

[Super Kami Dende]

I see Fueled by pain as more of a luck based bonus than a requirement that needs to be insanely balanced.

Like Dragon Scales for Prot, Rattling Bones for Blood, Gory/Adaptive Fur for Guardians or FacePalm for BrM.

All Traits that have a "chance"to increase your survivability but are not guaranteed to proc when you need them.

[shanthi]

Also, regarding Vengeance being balanced around FbP, Blizzard also likely realizes that it not being controllable makes it less powerful and factors that into the balancing.

[Extremity]

We're "balanced around" everything, but FbP is a minor perk. If you completely removed it from Vengeance, the spec would be only imperceptibly weaker. Munkky's description of it as a "fun" thing seems about right. It adds a very little bit of extra power, but it's more thematic than anything.

I feel like we've sort of turned around the discussion. I don't think that FbP is making or breaking the spec or that it's some horrendous issue that's preventing us from tanking properly. As I've said several times in this thread, I think Demon Hunter tanks are capable of tanking anything other classes can, even if they aren't the optimal choice every time.

What I am saying is that when you have an ability like FbP that adds overall uptime to a cooldown over the course of a fight, the class is balanced accordingly to compensate for that. Whether it's the strength of the ability, its cooldown length, or whatever else, you can be absolutely sure that it's not a "freebie". Somewhere else in our class design, something has been balanced around the fact that we've got periods of uptime on a relatively strong defensive ability.

The point is that, especially considering Blizzards more recent (relatively recent, during Legion's lifespan) statements and apparent goals with tanking, being balanced (regardless of how much or how little) around RNG isn't good. If I'm going to have 40% uptime on a defensive ability, I don't like the fact that on one attempt it could never be up when I needed it and on another it could be up at the best times. It's a little ridiculous that you can take 20% less damage on one attempt compared to another purely because you got lucky with proc timing.

So, again, I'm not trying to say that this is a devastating problem for the spec and we're just screwed until they fix it. On the other hand, acting like it's not an issue, whether big or small, seems odd.

- - - Updated - - -

I see Fueled by pain as more of a luck based bonus than a requirement that needs to be insanely balanced.

Like Dragon Scales for Prot, Rattling Bones for Blood, Gory/Adaptive Fur for Guardians or FacePalm for BrM.

All Traits that have a "chance"to increase your survivability but are not guaranteed to proc when you need them.

Each of those classes also has more respectable defensive abilities, and those procs are minor in comparison. A Prot Paladin is not randomly having Shield of the Righteous applied outside of their control and thus being balanced around "20% more SotR uptme!".

[Super Kami Dende]

Each of those classes also has more respectable defensive abilities, and those procs are minor in comparison. A Prot Paladin is not randomly having Shield of the Righteous applied outside of their control and thus being balanced around "20% more SotR uptme!".

I mean if you think you can't survive outside of Meta that's more of a You problem than a Class problem. You also chose Prot Pally to compare it with which is literally the only tank that doesn't have an RNG tank Trait, since their RNG sits on the RNG of SotR stack refreshes.

Also, I find my DH has plenty of respectable def abilities. My DH feels near godlike with comparable Ilvl to my Paladin.

[Extremity]

I mean if you think you can't survive outside of Meta that's more of a You problem than a Class problem. You also chose Prot Pally to compare it with which is literally the only tank that doesn't have an RNG tank Trait, since their RNG sits on the RNG of SotR stack refreshes.

Also, I find my DH has plenty of respectable def abilities. My DH feels near godlike with comparable Ilvl to my Paladin.

Maybe read the entire reply next time, which you clearly didn't if you think I am even remotely close to the opinion of "can't survive outside of Meta".