Oklahoma : Women who want an abortion face needing the father’s written consent

[PassingBy]

A pregnant female is the only one with the choice to continue to use her body to sustain life other then her own or not, correct.

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Then men can take it up with the government.

An individual woman has nothing to do with that issue.

Well currently that individual woman is using government to force the man into supporting a child that he didn't want.
Same as the morons in Oklahoma wanting to give the individual man an opportunity to force a woman into carrying a child that she doesn't want.

There is 0 difference apart from the fact that one thing is already a law and has been ruining men's lives for quite a long time and another one is just a project in one state.

[Total Crica]

You can't screw willy nilly and then just murder your unborn child

It's not murder to refuse to continue to use your body to sustain a life other then your own.

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that individual woman is using government

No, she is not. The government does that, not her. The government passes laws, individual women do not.

[derpkitteh]

What for, bruised feelings? He should find a woman who wants his kids, instead of forcing another to be a broodmare. You realize that aside from the potential, and potentially permanent, physical damage it can cause, there is mental damage as well from being held captive in her state for 9 months, slowly becoming more and more encumbered, racking up medical bills, change of lifestyle, having to buy maternity clothes to fit in, nevermind that her working life is going to be disrupted. Who is going to pay those costs for her if the man wants the kid so badly?

When men can carry pregnancies themselves, they can have the exact same rights, no questions asked. Until then, they do not ever get to violate the right of another person, and force them to be in a cattle-status for close to a year against their will.

then allow the abortion, and force her to pay compensation to the father. $100k would be good.

and in the opposite case, allow the man to have a complete legal "abortion" from the child so he doesn't have to pay child support if he doesn't want to.

[PassingBy]

Wrong.

In a non-rape scenario, here is what happened - Two people consented to have sex with each other. One or both of them screwed up and didn't use protection and a baby is created.
If both of these people don't want the baby, then it could be aborted. (although really that's murder)

If one of these people wants the baby and the other doesn't, then the baby can be kept.
If one of these people wants the baby and the other doesn't, then the baby can't be kept.
How can the same thing end in two different results? Because the woman's wants out weight the man's, that's how, and that's not right.
And this is all because the woman is the one to carry the baby?
It's not man's fault that human biology dictates that the female is the sex that gets pregnant.
If the man TRULY wants the baby, then the female should have to carry it, and the man pay for ALL the costs and then he can be the parent. That's FAIR.

Basically women need to learn this simple fact - Abortion is not a get out of jail card. You can't screw willy nilly and then just murder your unborn child so you don't have to deal with being a mother.
**If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.**
If you are the woman, and you don't want to be pregnant, then either A) DON'T have sex, or B) Make sure a contraceptive is being used.

There should be a procedure of some sort.
I mean we have surrogate mothers now, why not make some kind of a similar procedure for men that want a child, but don't want the woman.

You settle for an amount that she finds fair. Along with all the charges for medical attention and so on.
She carrys the child, gives birth to it, then her parental rights are cancelled she takes the money and fucks off.

The man can raise the child on his own if he wants to.

It is just a matter of a mutual agreement and a proper procedure so that the mother can't reinstate her parental rights, and so that without the father's consent she can't be seeing the child and so on.

However this still has to be a mutual decision not something government forces on you.
Forcing a woman to carry the child (even if she gets paid afterwards) if she doesn't want it is as fucked up as forcing the man to pay for the child and its mother for the rest of his life just because he put his dick in her cunt and didn't pull out on time.

[Reivur]

Men can lie about wanting to be there for the kid as well. It goes both ways and is a very poor line of argument.

Eghhh. I know we've had the same discussion/conclusion about this before, but this line... One is objectively more severe. The guy lies you can get an abortion and drop the scumbag. And yeah, I know having an abortion isn't a picnic or anything, but its a choice and option.

She lies about it and his finances (and, should he fail at that potentially his freedom) is hooked for 18 years. There's no opt out. I know before we agreed that there should be with terms, but since that doesn't currently exist and doesn't seem like it will for some time now it seems very callous to suggest that this kind of lie is as damaging or equivalent to its opposite. One clearly has an overwhelming power dynamic at play, the other doesn't.

[Halyon]

Basically women need to learn this simple fact - Abortion is not a get out of jail card. You can't screw willy nilly and then just murder your unborn child so you don't have to deal with being a mother.
**If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.**
If you are the woman, and you don't want to be pregnant, then either A) DON'T have sex, or B) Make sure a contraceptive is being used.

And that's why abortion is both illegal and considered murd- no wait it isn't. In most parts of the world it's safe, legal and not considered murder. If you wanna debate this subject and be taken any amount of seriously, learn to know what you're talking about.

[Total Crica]

then allow the abortion, and force her to pay compensation to the father. $100k would be good.

Compensation for what, exactly? For having sex with her? Is he a $100k prostitute?

[Eldrad]

It's not murder to refuse to continue to use your body to sustain a life other then your own.

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I don't know if I have ever heard a more callous and evil description for describing your unborn child. Basically, in your opinion, your child is a parasite.
Its for people like you that these laws should exist so the child has a chance at life.
Fast forward 20 years... when the kids is an adult and can have a conversation with you, would you still think nothing of just killing your child?

[PassingBy]

It's not murder to refuse to continue to use your body to sustain a life other then your own.

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No, she is not. The government does that, not her. The government passes laws, individual women do not.

Yes she is.
Do you think that the court just automatically charges you with a bill for child support if there is noone claiming it?

The woman is all like "no, no I don't need any money, thank you, please let poor Steve live his life as he choses to. I want him to have a right to chose what to do with his life. If he is not ready - it means he has a right to take off" and the evil government is like "no-no here take the money or we are going to put you to jail you stupid bitch"?

[derpkitteh]

Compensation for what, exactly? For having sex with her? Is he a $100k prostitute?

compensation for losing his child. some people might be selfish, uncaring wastes of life. but not everyone is.

[Total Crica]

the court just automatically charges you with a bill for child support

Yes, they do, if they find the father. She doesn't go find him, the courts do.

I never named the father of my child, they took a dna test and found him their-selves.

[Halyon]

then allow the abortion, and force her to pay compensation to the father. $100k would be good.

What's he being compensated for? 15 minutes of time and a free donation of semen? Both of which he spent willingly might I add. If you want this kind of deal, then you may want to look into eugenics and breeding programs. Then you may have some leeway if production of results failing turns to actual consequence of monetary value, and were you can stipulate such conditions contractually.

A man can have 30 women pregnant at the same time if he's active and successful enough, a woman can only carry 1 pregnancy at a time.

She may owe him an explenation/apology depending on the scenario, but that is personal and between them...

[Eldrad]

And that's why abortion is both illegal and considered murd- no wait it isn't. In most parts of the world it's safe, legal and not considered murder. If you wanna debate this subject and be taken any amount of seriously, learn to know what you're talking about.

Murder - the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

The difference here is a group of people who can easily shrug off moral responsibility have said it's not illegal. It's still premeditated killing of one human by another, which is murder in my book.
I know what I'm talking about just fine, thanks.

[Total Crica]

compensation for losing his child.

He never had a child to loose.

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in your opinion, your child is a parasite.

That is exactly how it acts until it is born, correct.

[derpkitteh]

He never had a child to loose.

you have an attitude that would probably make me hurt you if we were speaking in the same room.

reality isn't yours to decide what is real or not. there are facts and truths, the child would have existed or no abortion would be desired.

[Reivur]

I don't know if I have ever heard a more callous and evil description for describing your unborn child. Basically, in your opinion, your child is a parasite.
Its for people like you that these laws should exist so the child has a chance at life.
Fast forward 20 years... when the kids is an adult and can have a conversation with you, would you still think nothing of just killing your child?

They probably wouldn't, because at that point its developed into a person.

I don't see why you care since you've mentioned contraception. That implies that masturbation is also okay. Why is it alright to jettison your 'child' into latex or a tissue? Do you not understand why your terms are so nebulous and people aren't taking your exaggerated Virtuous sentiments seriously?

[PassingBy]

Yes, they do, if they find the father. She doesn't go find him, the courts do.

I never named the father of my child, they took a dna test and found him their-selves.

So you gave birth to a child, and then out of the blue the court just decided to take random DNA samples from all men in the country and found the father?

Or you went to court or to the specific state department that enforces the child support order?

I really believe it was some variation of the latter. Or the way child support works where you live differs greatly from where I live.

[Total Crica]

would probably make me hurt you

Which is why a woman should never pop a child out for you. You are unsafe to be around.

[Halyon]

I don't know if I have ever heard a more callous and evil description for describing your unborn child. Basically, in your opinion, your child is a parasite.
Its for people like you that these laws should exist so the child has a chance at life.
Fast forward 20 years... when the kids is an adult and can have a conversation with you, would you still think nothing of just killing your child?

...it's true though. And it's a fetus. It's not a person, it's a clump of developing tissue. The rest is sentimental value, which is deeply personal, and you don't have the right to push personal value unto others who don't share it.

And, if I was forced to give birth to someone, they wouldn't even be near me 2 mins. later. I wouldn't want anything whatsoever to do with it. Nothing.

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Murder - the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

The difference here is a group of people who can easily shrug off moral responsibility have said it's not illegal. It's still premeditated killing of one human by another, which is murder in my book.
I know what I'm talking about just fine, thanks.

A fetus is not a human being. So you are in fact wrong. Yes, the fetus has human dna, so it is human, this is true, only an idiot would deny it. But an idiot would also play word and definition-games and try to tell other people that dna makes you more than human, it makes you a human being that qualifies for rights that just human does not.

Your books are irrelevant.

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compensation for losing his child. some people might be selfish, uncaring wastes of life. but not everyone is.

He can't lose something he never had. A fetus is not a child. A child has to be born.

[Total Crica]

So you gave birth to a child, and then out of the blue the court just decided to take random DNA samples from all men in the country and found the father?

Or you went to court or to the specific state department that enforces the child support order?

I really believe it was some variation of the latter. Or the way child support works where you live differs greatly from where I live.

I was coerced by my family to have the child instead of abort at 19. I was separated from my husband at the time I had it.

I was raped between the time I separated from my husband and having my child.

I never named the father on my child's birth certificate because I honestly did not know if it was my husband or my rapist.

My family took me to get state welfare for the child. The state took DNA from my child and then forced my husband to submit to a DNA test.

I did not initiate any of that. My family and the government did.