"Skills, not gear should matter in PvP" - Look at it now...

[Critical92]

The pvp system in WoD S3 was the best system of all. One little ashran grind and you had full honor (700+30 in pvp) and some 710 gladi items.
There is no possability that you get roflstomped with honor gear against a full gladi gear except you play terrible.

In legion a fresh toon has to grind 1. honor talents (will be faster in the future) 2. artifact weapon (alts have it faster at 35 with knowledge) 3. gear only boosts your strength to some extent.

What legion misses the most is that you can adjust your stats like you want. Example is your spec works well with 20% crit but your template has 10% and 15% haste that is your worst stat. I think stat customisation is what bothers most people.

Let the templates pre define a total stat value (enhanced by itemlevel) that the player can choose where to put.
Like the standard asia grinder, you get max level (often hundreds of levels) and you have 10000 points to spend on INT, AGI, etc.
That would open up some playstyles.

[Torais]

I find it amusingly ironic the main push behind making gear irrelevant was making it easier for players new to PvP to get involved without getting crushed. But instead we traded one grind (gear) for another (PvP skills). Of course if you play the "wrong" class (i.e Hunters) your artifacts are critically important anyway so yeah...so much for that.

Personally I find PvP pretty damn lousy. Not quite WoD level but pretty damn close. Class seems to trump skill any day of the week. Despite being told for years how many knobs Holinka and friends have to turn to actually balance things, they all seem too busy spinning their chairs around making propeller noises to actually do anything let alone balance the game or (*Gasp!*) work on a new BG.

[Teri]

What legion misses the most is that you can adjust your stats like you want. Example is your spec works well with 20% crit but your template has 10% and 15% haste that is your worst stat. I think stat customisation is what bothers most people.

Yeah that's what I hate the most about templates, the preset secondaries, not always your wanted playstyles, and then they make some really plain pvp talents like "6% haste" for some classes, could be more interesting then that.

In the end it's still better then world pvp as that's just "if you dont have max itemlevel , get stomped by people with 1 million more hp" 54 trait mythic raiders vs the "average joe" is a huge difference in stamina alone. Fury warrior hp is especially high.

[Kagthul]

You said that pvp gear you recieve is only based only on current itemlevel which shows you know nothing of the mechanics of drops. Who is lying now?

That would still be you, Junior.

iLevel of gear that drops is based on your current iLevel until your rating surpasses a pretty high point. Never said otherwise. There are half a dozen or more Blue posts that detail exaxtly how it works, but hey, what do they know, theyre only the ones who made the game. You dont start getting 880 base gear until youre past 2k rating. Until about 1850 you cant earn gear above your iLevel floor based on your current iLevel.

You're probably just some random pleb who expects to get 900itemlevel from afk'ing at stables in AB, sorry I cannot help you open your eyes, I'm done with you

My eyes are wide open. This has been discussed to death even before the xpac went live. I know how to do math, and one of the things i do for a living is build and evaluate game systems. You can go lookmthrough the threads and see the math. Its plain as day.

Even before the xpac launched, it became obvious they were removing tangible rewards from the reach of about 90% of the people whomactively PvPed at endgame.

We predicted that said removal would cause ladder collapse and the PvP community to shrink staggeringly.

Guess what? We were right. Ladder imploded, and people even bothering to do casuals has plummeted from almost 50% of the active max level character base to about 16% (based on Armory datamining; keep in mind, that 16% figure is based on Prestige achievements.. which you can get without even PvPing, so the real number is likely lower).

Queue times have exploded, competitive ladder is a joke.

Proof is in the pudding, kiddo. PvP is contracting at a disturbing rate.

Also.... you do realize that on your armory link, we can see when you acquired gear. "Several Hours" equals, apparently, over 42 days.

Who's a liar?

That'd be... you.

[Hexme]

I enjoy the new system, I can step into a battleground and be on a semi even playing field, previous expansions you step into a bg and you get stomped by geared players.

Although I will agree, now there is a prestige system of sorts, there should be some form of match making based on that, this would allow for a gear element to come back into pvp

Said no caster (except maybe balance druids) during this expansion

[Deleted]

You said that pvp gear you recieve is only based only on current itemlevel which shows you know nothing of the mechanics of drops. Who is lying now?

You're probably just some random pleb who expects to get 900itemlevel from afk'ing at stables in AB, sorry I cannot help you open your eyes, I'm done with you

Here, let me quote you what you said.

And it's not getting gear - Alt DH went from 790 itemlevel to 870 in a few hours from doing arena -

... which you most certainly did not based on this character. The time period you claimed of this happening is why people are frowning at you, not your claim that you can get 870 ilevel from just pvp.

[Cuppy]

The problem is the gear sucks. PvE players who dabbled in casual, unrated PvP in previous expansions now have almost no incentive to do PvP.

Depends! I got 840 gear from instance, and 855 gear from BG. Your argument is invalid
Also I like more PvP now. Your argument is invalid

[Thelxi]

But they didn't. Also, I don't think anybody is opposed to gear having 0 impact in rated pvp. But again, it's not even 0. The whole thing is a deliberate illusion that facilitates the next level of timesink and RNG gearing that was reached in Legion.

[Maduk]

... which you most certainly did not based on this character. The time period you claimed of this happening is why people are frowning at you, not your claim that you can get 870 ilevel from just pvp.

He played just 72 Arenas and 10 BGs. Thats quite possible in just "a few hours".
He isn't lying.

@Topic
With 7.2 and the decrease in honor needed to get to prestige 1, everything except class balance is in a good spot.
Artifact traits are only a problem if you start Legion just now. Everyone else has enough AK to get to easily to trait 30.

[shoegazing]

I got an ilvl 940 legendary for doing 10 3v3 arena wins today

Still doesn't make up for the fact that my class isn't any fun to play after Blizzard decided to delete half of the buttons from our spellbooks

[Vorkreist]

Legion PvP is a sad joke. Everything is designed for pve carebears to derp around in unrated bgs.

[Deleted]

Legion PvP is a sad joke. Everything is designed for pve carebears to derp around in unrated bgs.

1 point missing in ur signature

8.0x
honor now can be gained by training the dummy

[Osmeric]

Legion PvP is a sad joke. Everything is designed for pve carebears to derp around in unrated bgs.

So, having essentially no gear reward is being "designed for"? Who knew!

[Deleted]

He played just 72 Arenas and 10 BGs. Thats quite possible in just "a few hours".
He isn't lying.

Ok. If you say so.

[Osmeric]

it only seems to have had a boom when casual players or raiders felt that PvP was an easy way to gear up.

Bingo. Maybe Legion PvP is Blizzard finally wanting to see what fraction of people really wanted to PvP in the first place, just for its own sake. The number is probably small, which means Blizzard will deemphasize PvP in WoW from now on.

[Jibjub]

The design PHILOSOPHY is correct. PvP should be 100% about skill, not gear. But Blizzard failed at implementing it. Don't throw away the philosophy because Blizzard messed it up.

Here's what I would do:

1) Stats are 100% pvp templated -- gear has NO bearing on stats, zero, purely cosmetic.

2) Levels are removed in pvp -- no matter what level you are, when you go into instanced pvp, you are "max level" and have all abilities and equal gear/armor (this means you can choose whatever comp you want for arena ... which you think might be bad because "everyone will just do fotm" ... but you are wrong, this will force Blizzard to make things more balanced)

3) Add more customization / choices for your character (more complex talent trees would be nice). If this cannot be implemented without screwing up balance, I can live without it.

4) There should still be rewards. Gold, mounts, armor (for world pvp and cosmetic), prestigious stuff that you can only get from PvP (some you grind for, others you need to win a lot).

5) If ALL you want to do is PvP, it should be B2P (like GW2). You buy the game or most current expansion and you don't need to sub. You log in, you are plopped in a PvP lobby where you can mess around with your "build" and duel people and stuff. And then you queue for BGs and arenas. If you are not paying a sub, you wouldn't earn gold or other rewards (except cosmetics) but I think it'd be nice to have this hybrid model that let players PvP without having to pay a sub. It would increase PvP populations and it could still work because of numbers 1 and 2 above.

In other words, take a page out of GW2's book, but since they are Blizzard, do it way better.

[Deleted]

pvp is fine. i like it, I play it, many do. its the same stuff every single time, some people cry its bad and instantly some stupids speak of the "majority". there are sad men every season, just walk away from eternal tears and you will enjoy the game much more yourself.

[Cuppy]

The design PHILOSOPHY is correct. PvP should be 100% about skill, not gear. But Blizzard failed at implementing it. Don't throw away the philosophy because Blizzard messed it up.

Here's what I would do:

1) Stats are 100% pvp templated -- gear has NO bearing on stats, zero, purely cosmetic.

2) Levels are removed in pvp -- no matter what level you are, when you go into instanced pvp, you are "max level" and have all abilities and equal gear/armor (this means you can choose whatever comp you want for arena ... which you think might be bad because "everyone will just do fotm" ... but you are wrong, this will force Blizzard to make things more balanced)

3) Add more customization / choices for your character (more complex talent trees would be nice). If this cannot be implemented without screwing up balance, I can live without it.

4) There should still be rewards. Gold, mounts, armor (for world pvp and cosmetic), prestigious stuff that you can only get from PvP (some you grind for, others you need to win a lot).

5) If ALL you want to do is PvP, it should be B2P (like GW2). You buy the game or most current expansion and you don't need to sub. You log in, you are plopped in a PvP lobby where you can mess around with your "build" and duel people and stuff. And then you queue for BGs and arenas. If you are not paying a sub, you wouldn't earn gold or other rewards (except cosmetics) but I think it'd be nice to have this hybrid model that let players PvP without having to pay a sub. It would increase PvP populations and it could still work because of numbers 1 and 2 above.

In other words, take a page out of GW2's book, but since they are Blizzard, do it way better.

This, this a fucking billion times.

Why they don't make a template (Or maybe 2-3 with different secondary stats), and stick with it. No 0.000001% scaling, NOTHING ELSE.
Also pvp can drop gear, just make it obsolete in pvp.
PvP=Skills
PvE=Gear

[Matthias]

Just based on all of the QQ I've heard the real issue with PvP is the pruning, starting in WoD.

Blizz wanted to decrease the skill disparity to make newer players feel less discouraged when they get wrecked in meters. That's fine for PvE imo.
But in PvP skill caps should go as high as the heavens if that's just how the class is designed. One of the greatest parts about PvP for me is learning how to fully abuse my tool kit, many abilities that I never bother using in PvE.

Knowing that Demoralizing Shout could knock Rogues out of stealth, or that they can't Cloak of Shadows a Bleed, so I must maintain Rend on them so they can't reset, unless their timing is insane on the Rend Ticks. Using my Banner to Intervene to close the distance. Reflecting Ice Traps (which I was never good at).

Now I'll admit I feel like every class got a little too damn bloated by MoP, hell I'll never understand why in Cata Warriors a class with Charge, Intecept and Intervene, got Heroic Leap, while Mages the class with the most control got Ring of Frost.....give that crap to Ele Sham ffs. By MoP it just seemed like every class had an answer for everything. But yea the cut out way too much.

I think people's biggest beef in Legion is they just don't feel like they can out play their opponent, so even if they were losing, they felt that they could have played it better.

The idea behind PvP this expansion was that it should be Skill over Gear. Yet Blizzard completely neutered the Skill Cap. FYI though I still think most people whining about PvP just suck at it and aren't able to adapt.

[Deleted]

Ok. If you say so.

Damn facts are hard to swallow, the char is 880 now after doing a few rbgs as well, continue to be blind though.