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  1. #121
    Banned Kontinuum's Avatar
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    Warcraft tabletop RPG is non-canon.

  2. #122
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    Stop cutting parts of the sentences to make up a point that fits you, this is not fox news.
    Perhaps you are not familiar with the forum guidelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    Also RPG is not cannon? you know WoW is an RPG right lol? Or you mean specifically the manual of WARCRAFT RPG that was created by blizzard and updated to include the new wow monsters as the MMO/expansions were released which was overseen by Chris Metzen and Wow design team is not canon? K bye.
    Really? Where have you been for the past 6 years?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?
    No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated. (AskCDev2)
    Also, my signature...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  3. #123
    I think the actual answer is we don't know.

    Ner'zhul is dead that has been confirmed out of game. We also know however, that something is going on with Bolvar. The Bolvar directing the Ebon Blade in Legion is not the same guy who we left frozen in a block on ice and the end of Wrath.

    Because we don't really know a lot about the helm or how much power KJ infused into it we can't really say what the helm can or can't do to assist Bolvar.

    Lastly, Blizzard has no problem retconning so whatever we think we know today might have changed which would actually explain Legion Bolvar however, as players we just have not yet been filled in on the retcon.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    I think the actual answer is we don't know.

    Ner'zhul is dead that has been confirmed out of game. We also know however, that something is going on with Bolvar. The Bolvar directing the Ebon Blade in Legion is not the same guy who we left frozen in a block on ice and the end of Wrath.

    Because we don't really know a lot about the helm or how much power KJ infused into it we can't really say what the helm can or can't do to assist Bolvar.

    Lastly, Blizzard has no problem retconning so whatever we think we know today might have changed which would actually explain Legion Bolvar however, as players we just have not yet been filled in on the retcon.
    You know, so far Mal'ganis is not present in any part of legion and in 7.2 there is 0 mention of him, maybe he is manipulating the ebon blade and building some trust between them so he can send them to a "dangerous mission" which is actually a trap.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    Stop cutting parts of the sentences to make up a point that fits you, this is not fox news. Also RPG is not cannon? you know WoW is an RPG right lol? Or you mean specifically the manual of WARCRAFT RPG that was created by blizzard and updated to include the new wow monsters as the MMO/expansions were released which was overseen by Chris Metzen and Wow design team is not canon? K bye.
    Sadly, whether or not material was written by Blizzard, by anyone who works for Blizzard, any of their employees, whether it bears the Warcraft logo... none of these make a bit of material canon. Information is canon only until Blizzard releases the next change in the universal storyline that makes it invalid. The Warcraft II and Warcraft III games and manuals were 100% canon, until they weren't.

    They went out of their way to declare the RPG non-canon. Other older bits of the WoW universe have been declared irrelevant far more quietly, but it has happened nevertheless.

    As for the actual question of the OP.... because Blizzard says so. That's pretty much all we've got. The entire story there made no sense in the first place, so there's no cause to assume there's anything as substantial as a reason for why Bolvar can't just kill off the scourge.

  6. #126
    So they can strip mine it for more content later. Blizzard have made it clear that gameplay and mechanics > story, so they probably told their lore nerds to leave an out for them in case they wanted another trip into the zombie North Pole.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That doesn't make any sense. Why would the LK randomly die on a world conquered by the Scourge?
    Because its quite possible that the heroes of the land managed to kill him, and with no one to take his place, the Scourge overran the world, exactly as we were told they would without a Jailer to keep them under control.

    If he'd already managed to co nquer most of the world and was killed during the "last stand" of the heroes, there'd be nothing left to stop the Scourge from just consuming everything.

    And thats just the very first thing that came to mind.

    We DONT know the circumstances of this possible future. Simply a "successive (< this implies, not Bolvar) Lich King Worse than Arthas or Ner'zhul rose up off the Frozen Throne and laid waste to the world".

    Doesnt mean he wasnt killed in the process. Doesnt mean he was, either.

    We simply DONT KNOW.

  8. #128
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Because its quite possible that the heroes of the land managed to kill him, and with no one to take his place, the Scourge overran the world, exactly as we were told they would without a Jailer to keep them under control.

    If he'd already managed to co nquer most of the world and was killed during the "last stand" of the heroes, there'd be nothing left to stop the Scourge from just consuming everything.

    And thats just the very first thing that came to mind.

    We DONT know the circumstances of this possible future. Simply a "successive (< this implies, not Bolvar) Lich King Worse than Arthas or Ner'zhul rose up off the Frozen Throne and laid waste to the world".

    Doesnt mean he wasnt killed in the process. Doesnt mean he was, either.

    We simply DONT KNOW.
    Except that's not what the story says. It says the Lich King sweeps across the land "with thousands of skeletal warriors in his wake." The LK killed everyone and raised the skeletons as he passed. It isn't even that the Scourge killed everything, the LK himself did it.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    I think the actual answer is we don't know.

    Ner'zhul is dead that has been confirmed out of game. We also know however, that something is going on with Bolvar. The Bolvar directing the Ebon Blade in Legion is not the same guy who we left frozen in a block on ice and the end of Wrath.
    And ill give you that. We dont know what has happened to Bolvar to change him. He might have taken the job with every intention of just sitting on his ass in Icecrown and suppressing the Scourge forever, only to have hideous truths revealed to him by his new power. After all, in the end... even Arthas was trying to save the world from the Legion. Despite his fucked up way of doing it, that was his intent from the get go - to cull and winnow the "heroes" of Azeroth down to the very, very best, so that they would form an unstoppable force of powerful Scourge lieutenants.

    Bolvar might be coming around to that same conclusion, or at least a similar one. (He certainly implies the hell out of this during the DK class campaign, where he all but states outright that if you fail, he's going to unleash the Scourge as a sort of "Nuclear Option", and the new stuff from 7.2 implies that he may have plans developed for a middle-ground (if you fall, taking the Ebon Blade over personally and using them how he sees fit) before hitting the big red button.

    I would say that the difference is Arthas was corrupted into the job and wasn't truly a very good person to begin with. Bolvar, on the other hand, took the job KNOWING he was condemning himself to damnation, and was, at heart, a very, very good man. So the power of the Lich King may have affected him, but he's not quite at the "Im gonna rule the world" level, just "ill destroy the world before i let the fucking Legion have it".

    Because we don't really know a lot about the helm or how much power KJ infused into it we can't really say what the helm can or can't do to assist Bolvar.

    Lastly, Blizzard has no problem retconning so whatever we think we know today might have changed which would actually explain Legion Bolvar however, as players we just have not yet been filled in on the retcon.
    I dont even think there needs to be a Retcon. Hes had a few years to sit and stew and examine all sorts of information he never had before. He probably knows a lot of things we dont have any clue about, and that shit can change you.

    He may know the real stakes (he may have already learned that Azeroth was a Titan, and that the Old Gods corrupting her would be the literal end of days) and, as a former paladin, is ready to make the "hard choices" to save the universe, even if it means sacrificing Azeroth to do it.

    he implies that when he has you raise the Horsemen; all of them are (relatively) good people in life. Nazgrim was savage, but he was a loyal soldier and did what he thought was best for his people. His first instinct when told that Azeroth is in dire trouble and needs his help? Ok, lets do it. Zero hesitation. Whitemane was also a very good person before she let her desire for revenge overtake her. King Thoras was, by all accounts, one hell of a dude in life. You can see it in his response when you raise him - first order of business, deal with that shitbird of a son who murdered me. Second order of business? Azeroth's in trouble? Only way i can help is if i accept damnation? Zero hesitation, sign me up, lets kill some demons. Darion was a good person in life, and arguably, a good person even in undeath after he was released from Arthas' control. He sacrificed himself without hesitation for the Ebon Blade, because he knows that victory may depend on someone making the hard choice that the "good guys" cant make.

    ALL FOUR of the Horsemen sign up willingly, knowing what it will cost them. I submit that Bolvar is rather similar (though there is no proof either way) - willingly accepted damnation, and is now making plans to make sure the bad guys dont win, even if its a pyhrric victory for the good guys.

    "We do what the living cannot".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except that's not what the story says. It says the Lich King sweeps across the land "with thousands of skeletal warriors in his wake." The LK killed everyone and raised the skeletons as he passed. It isn't even that the Scourge killed everything, the LK himself did it.
    .. yeah, that's not what "in his wake" means. It means behind. That's all. Means he leads from the front. Hardly surprising.

    And the story does clearly say "a successive Lich King".

    As for the rest... we. dont. know.

    It was a "possible future, that never came to pass" - paraphrasing.
    Last edited by Kagthul; 2017-02-14 at 06:24 AM.

  10. #130
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    After all, in the end... even Arthas was trying to save the world from the Legion. Despite his fucked up way of doing it, that was his intent from the get go - to cull and winnow the "heroes" of Azeroth down to the very, very best, so that they would form an unstoppable force of powerful Scourge lieutenants.
    Save Azeroth from the Legion....? Arthas wanted those heroes to be Scourge so he could send them back and destroy the kingdoms of Azeroth. He wasn't trying to save Azeroth he was trying to conquer it. "All must serve the one true king."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    .. yeah, that's not what "in his wake" means. It means behind. That's all. Means he leads from the front. Hardly surprising.
    Yes... The army of skeletons succeeded the LK as he swept across Azeroth.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Save Azeroth from the Legion....? Arthas wanted those heroes to be Scourge so he could send them back and destroy the kingdoms of Azeroth. He wasn't trying to save Azeroth he was trying to conquer it. "All must serve the one true king."
    Might want to read up on all those novels you keep harping on about. Or was it that other guy that i already put on ignore that was constantly re-defining words? Maybe it was. Neither of you has presented anything resembling an argument. In the Arthas novel, its clearly stated that he's building that plan to confront the Legion when they inevitably return.

    He didn't need to raise the heroes to send them back against the kingdoms of Azeroth. He already had an army of Scourge that was so big he could have literally swept across the lands of the living and scoured Azeroth of life. We know this, because Bolvar inherited that army.

    Yes... The army of skeletons succeeded the LK as he swept across Azeroth.
    .... are you.. really that dumb? Nowhere does it say that he went and killed everyone by himself. It says he swept across Azeroth with his army of skeletons behind him. You know, like most armies do when they follow their king.

    Do you not understand what the words you're reading actually mean?

    'cause it certainly seems that way.

    How about this? You can join driveldude on ignore. Bye!

  12. #132
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Might want to read up on all those novels you keep harping on about. Or was it that other guy that i already put on ignore that was constantly re-defining words? Maybe it was. Neither of you has presented anything resembling an argument. In the Arthas novel, its clearly stated that he's building that plan to confront the Legion when they inevitably return.
    You mean Ner'zhul's plan to free himself from the Legion despite helping to summon them for their invasion? You do realize that Ner'zhul is not the same character as Arthas, right? Arthas' initial goal was revenge against Mal'ganis. Yes, he helped Ner'zhul (his master) to undermine the Legion. Nowhere in Rise of the Lich King did it state either of their goals was to "save" Azeroth.

    Perhaps you should read the novel yourself and provide an actual quote to substantiate your claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    He didn't need to raise the heroes to send them back against the kingdoms of Azeroth. He already had an army of Scourge that was so big he could have literally swept across the lands of the living and scoured Azeroth of life. We know this, because Bolvar inherited that army.
    Did you miss the WotLK trailer?
    "Only then will you understand - you've been following in my footsteps all along."

    Or the LK encounter in WoW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    .... are you.. really that dumb? Nowhere does it say that he went and killed everyone by himself. It says he swept across Azeroth with his army of skeletons behind him. You know, like most armies do when they follow their king.

    Do you not understand what the words you're reading actually mean?
    And nowhere does that even hint that the LK got defeated by some "last stand" of heroes you invented. The story says the LK conquered Azeroth. Not the Scourge, the LK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    How about this? You can join driveldude on ignore. Bye!
    GG...?

  13. #133
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    helm twists the mind, i am pretty sure it twisted his the moment it got on his head, and plus, you got a free large army under your command, why kill them?

  14. #134
    What if the Helm itself is the problem? Lich King was created to be a tool of ultimate anihilation of the living beings on Azeroth. To be effective, Lich King was supposed to ne hesitate, never relent, never stand back, always push forward, be ruthless and unable to be reasoned with.

    Ner'zhul wasn't exactly as good guy. Still, there is a long road from even a ruthless killer to "I will kill every living being on the planet so that all that remains is undead, and nothing will stop me on this way, nor convince me to sway from it". For Arthas, we learnt to accept his transition from paladin to monster, yet we always considered Ner'zhul and his Frostmourne to be a big part of the problem. Later, even after vanqusihing Ner'zhul, the Lich King's goals somehow stayed the same. The battle between Ner'zhul and Arthas wasn't about the ultimate goal, but merely about who will be in charge.

    And now we have Bolvar talking weird, speaking about Helm showing him things, visions of armies of undead, and behaving completely un-paladin.

    Maybe Kil'jaeden was smarter than we fought - he is called Deceiver for a reason. The Scourge is a scourge upon the world, literally, and the Lich King wasn't invincible - especially his former version, trapped in ice.

    Leave the Lich King Ner'zhul alone, and the Scourge will relentlessly fight until all of Azeroth is cleansed of living.

    Destroy the Lich King, and the uncontrolled Scourge will do just the same.

    Replace the Lich King, and the cursed Helm will influence his mind, slowly changing him into what Lich King originally was. And always supposed to be.


    Nevertheless, its nigh impossible that Blizzard is doing all this foreshadowing with Bolvar for nothing. Something serious is coming, and it most likely will not be limited to death knight campaigns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  15. #135
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    What if the Helm itself is the problem? Lich King was created to be a tool of ultimate anihilation of the living beings on Azeroth. To be effective, Lich King was supposed to ne hesitate, never relent, never stand back, always push forward, be ruthless and unable to be reasoned with.

    Ner'zhul wasn't exactly as good guy. Still, there is a long road from even a ruthless killer to "I will kill every living being on the planet so that all that remains is undead, and nothing will stop me on this way, nor convince me to sway from it". For Arthas, we learnt to accept his transition from paladin to monster, yet we always considered Ner'zhul and his Frostmourne to be a big part of the problem. Later, even after vanqusihing Ner'zhul, the Lich King's goals somehow stayed the same. The battle between Ner'zhul and Arthas wasn't about the ultimate goal, but merely about who will be in charge.

    And now we have Bolvar talking weird, speaking about Helm showing him things, visions of armies of undead, and behaving completely un-paladin.

    Maybe Kil'jaeden was smarter than we fought - he is called Deceiver for a reason. The Scourge is a scourge upon the world, literally, and the Lich King wasn't invincible - especially his former version, trapped in ice.

    Leave the Lich King Ner'zhul alone, and the Scourge will relentlessly fight until all of Azeroth is cleansed of living.

    Destroy the Lich King, and the uncontrolled Scourge will do just the same.

    Replace the Lich King, and the cursed Helm will influence his mind, slowly changing him into what Lich King originally was. And always supposed to be.


    Nevertheless, its nigh impossible that Blizzard is doing all this foreshadowing with Bolvar for nothing. Something serious is coming, and it most likely will not be limited to death knight campaigns.
    Its probably what is happening. Even if the helmet doesn't alter you, having your mind expand and hearing the screaming souls of the scourge in your head would.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  16. #136
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    GG...?
    Really bad game I say.

    "I ignore people the moment I grow pissed of their constant arguing!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Really bad game I say.

    "I ignore people the moment I grow pissed of their constant arguing!"
    No, i ignore them when we get to the third or fourth instance of them repeating the same debunked, misproven headcanon 'facts' over and over again without aknowledging that theyve been proven wrong by actual in-game and in-canon facts.

    The moment they hit 'nuh-uh!' as their primary argument, theyve proven themselves not worth conversing with. If your 'argument' and 'facts' wouldnt make it out of a middle school debate class, ive no use for you.

  18. #138
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    No, i ignore them when we get to the third or fourth instance of them repeating the same debunked, misproven headcanon 'facts' over and over again without aknowledging that theyve been proven wrong by actual in-game and in-canon facts.

    The moment they hit 'nuh-uh!' as their primary argument, theyve proven themselves not worth conversing with. If your 'argument' and 'facts' wouldnt make it out of a middle school debate class, ive no use for you.
    Funny because we're providing quotes while you're the one posting ad hominems and saying "nuh-uh" with no citations.

  19. #139
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    Because, ultimately the Helm is Ner'zhul and The Scourge. I know it was retconned somewhat, but I remember too well that the original description was that Ner'zhul's soul was ripped apart and forged as the helm, not just a soul "simply" bound into the helm.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And the Necromantic/Demonic magics that bind the Scourge to its wearer. Ner'zhul or no, I somehow doubt either that or the presence of the Scourge hive-mind or collective consciousness in one's head is good for one's sanity.
    Completely unrelated, Aucald did you move to PA? I thought you were in Canada!

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