1. #9081
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsujin View Post
    Stop using FR a lot, that's only there to dump rage. I rarely rage starve unless super bad RNG happens, which rarely happens with the 4 set bonus.
    if you rarely ragestarve you are not playing this specc right. on an average guldan fight this will happen at least 2-3 times. by rage starving i don't mean you cannot press MS or slam, it is just that you don't have the amount of rage that would be needed to maintain top dps numbers.

    it is RNG obviousely, but there are ways to counteract RNG, e.g CoF.

    FR fullfills way more purposes than a rage dump. if you cannot keep FR'ing your dps will go to shits anyway. Yes that is the nature of our specc, and maybe there are certain ways to smooth things out such as using a undervalued trinket from nighthold that might offer a much more stable ingame rotation than a simcraft spreadshit will provide on paper.

  2. #9082
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    if you rarely ragestarve you are not playing this specc right. on an average guldan fight this will happen at least 2-3 times. by rage starving i don't mean you cannot press MS or slam, it is just that you don't have the amount of rage that would be needed to maintain top dps numbers.

    it is RNG obviousely, but there are ways to counteract RNG, e.g CoF.

    FR fullfills way more purposes than a rage dump. if you cannot keep FR'ing your dps will go to shits anyway. Yes that is the nature of our specc, and maybe there are certain ways to smooth things out such as using a undervalued trinket from nighthold that might offer a much more stable ingame rotation than a simcraft spreadshit will provide on paper.
    After the two nerfs they put on FR, Slam does more damage per rage spent instead of FR. FR is there to dump your rage - to manage your rage so you're not rage capped - and to set up maximum damage provided that you are about to enter BC and you have Shattered Defenses (with CS debuff on target), or trying to proc CS before you enter BC/Deadly Calm mode. If you keep spamming FR like crazy because it gives you maximum DPS, as those huge numbers show, then you are playing the spec wrong. Obviously you want at least a minimum of 1 FR before you use up Shattered Defenses - most Warriors would opt for 2 FRs as well, but if that's going to "possibly" rage starve you and you're not about to enter BC/Deadly Calm mode, then yeah you deserve to be rage starved. The only time I ever rage starve is when CS reset doesn't occur. The 4 set piece helps proc CS a little better. The BC trinket helps by a large margin as well.

    Anyways, can someone else jump in on this?

  3. #9083
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsujin View Post
    After the two nerfs they put on FR, Slam does more damage per rage spent instead of FR. FR is there to dump your rage - to manage your rage so you're not rage capped - and to set up maximum damage provided that you are about to enter BC and you have Shattered Defenses (with CS debuff on target), or trying to proc CS before you enter BC/Deadly Calm mode. If you keep spamming FR like crazy because it gives you maximum DPS, as those huge numbers show, then you are playing the spec wrong. Obviously you want at least a minimum of 1 FR before you use up Shattered Defenses - most Warriors would opt for 2 FRs as well, but if that's going to "possibly" rage starve you and you're not about to enter BC/Deadly Calm mode, then yeah you deserve to be rage starved. The only time I ever rage starve is when CS reset doesn't occur. The 4 set piece helps proc CS a little better. The BC trinket helps by a large margin as well.

    Anyways, can someone else jump in on this?
    do you even read what i write or do you just re-explain like a monkey?
    Last edited by Kitaen; 2017-02-12 at 11:36 PM.

  4. #9084
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    do you even read what i write or do you just re-explain like a monkey?
    Two things: First, you don't act like an ass. Second, start reading pages and use the search about "rage starve" or similar wordings to it. What I've explained to you is what was discussed here many, many times.

    No one has disrespected you, but your god damn fucking comment is seriously not tolerable. Be respectful and read and research. FR is a rage dump so you don't cap when you are outside of BC and it does increase your MS damage, especially with Shattered Defenses and CS debuff on target. Period. It's not a substitute to Slam anymore. Don't FR like crazy.
    Last edited by Tatsujin; 2017-02-13 at 03:40 AM.

  5. #9085
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsujin View Post
    Two things: First, you don't act like an ass. Second, start reading pages and use the search about "rage starve" or similar wordings to it. What I've explained to you is what was discussed here many, many times.

    No one has disrespected you, but your god damn fucking comment is seriously not tolerable. Be respectful and read and research. FR is a rage dump so you don't cap when you are outside of BC and it does increase your MS damage, especially with Shattered Defenses and CS debuff on target. Period. It's not a substitute to Slam anymore. Don't FR like crazy.
    first: i never asked advice regarding FR.
    second: i know this class and all of its mechanics very well, stop educating me, lesser player.
    third: you obviousely cannot read, i was asking if there are ppl with similiar gear to mine that have actually playtested CoF in endgame content. i don't care what you are saying since you are missing my point since the beginning. yet you still want to explain the correct usage of FR; lolmao this is hillarious. and yes you are disrespecting me with your constant desire to educate me on a topic i am very well aware of, now get lost, thank you.

  6. #9086
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    first: i never asked advice regarding FR.
    second: i know this class and all of its mechanics very well, stop educating me, lesser player.
    third: you obviousely cannot read, i was asking if there are ppl with similiar gear to mine that have actually playtested CoF in endgame content. i don't care what you are saying since you are missing my point since the beginning. yet you still want to explain the correct usage of FR; lolmao this is hillarious. and yes you are disrespecting me with your constant desire to educate me on a topic i am very well aware of, now get lost, thank you.
    Dude, you said you were ragestarved, he said you shouldent be.
    And others doesent seem to have that problem, so take a chill pill.

    Feel the lesser player, and learn. You seem to need it.

  7. #9087
    There is certainly no "rage starvation" on the latest page. Eks dee.

    As about FR rotation. I like it, very much. I like pressing buttons in general, even if it means spamming, but honestly don't like the feel of furious warrior being arms. How come fury is more cold blooded and tactical and arms is more crazy spammy than a fury itself? That's bullshit.
    Last edited by ReD-EyeD; 2017-02-13 at 12:08 PM.

  8. #9088
    I've been running my sims again lately to update with new gear, some interesting results but it's crazy how good Draught of Souls is and how much Arms would be literally in the dumpster without it. The results I get are different to the compendium lists thrown around and it just puts extra emphases on the point that people should always sim their own char. This is with 4set (chest/helm/gloves/shoulders) and Legendary Legs + Execute ring, at ilvl894-895 equipped + 54 traits.

    Single Target



    Hectic Add Cleave



    I think because of how sensitive the haste caps are (the one at around 13-15% for 6GCD's within CS) we see Arcano 860 pulling ahead in my gearset on single target, though I believe SC currently over exaggerates how much latency is going on causing it to overvalue haste a bit. It has a massive hardon for haste up to 26% without tier, while no more than 22-23% was needed for me in game when I ran that.

    Claw looks a lot lower than other sims might suggest on ST, probably because other sims weren't simming it alongside Draught. Draught scales with Mastery/Verse but doesn't with STR, so losing the secondaries off other trinkets is a nerf to Draught and overall dps, something that won't show up if you sim trinkets on their own.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2017-02-13 at 12:26 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  9. #9089
    Quote Originally Posted by krigsmaskin View Post
    Dude, you said you were ragestarved, he said you shouldent be.
    And others doesent seem to have that problem, so take a chill pill.

    Feel the lesser player, and learn. You seem to need it.
    look, the thing is, everybody is ragestarved. the reason is you don't have proccs. you want proccs. so we try to spent as much rage as possible. how do we generate proccs? with "free spells" during BC; CoF helps with that. this was never about beeing low on rage, it was always about maximising dps through having "more rage because of CoF". is that so hard to understand? i don't need a lesson in FR'ing, if you don't know how to properly use FR, arms is not for you. i do, and my mostly 99% logs proof that.

  10. #9090
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    first: i never asked advice regarding FR.
    second: i know this class and all of its mechanics very well, stop educating me, lesser player.
    third: you obviousely cannot read, i was asking if there are ppl with similiar gear to mine that have actually playtested CoF in endgame content. i don't care what you are saying since you are missing my point since the beginning. yet you still want to explain the correct usage of FR; lolmao this is hillarious. and yes you are disrespecting me with your constant desire to educate me on a topic i am very well aware of, now get lost, thank you.
    I've reported you twice. Someone needs to take action against this person.

    You came here asking for advice, then you name call people because "everybody rage starves" and "FR is the best" you really need to relax and read. Also, sarcasm, name calling, and acting like a child is very low of you. Once again, relax and read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    look, the thing is, everybody is ragestarved. the reason is you don't have proccs. you want proccs. so we try to spent as much rage as possible. how do we generate proccs? with "free spells" during BC; CoF helps with that. this was never about beeing low on rage, it was always about maximising dps through having "more rage because of CoF". is that so hard to understand? i don't need a lesson in FR'ing, if you don't know how to properly use FR, arms is not for you. i do, and my mostly 99% logs proof that.
    Show us the logs.

  11. #9091
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsujin View Post
    I've reported you twice. Someone needs to take action against this person.
    bro, relax! if "like a monkey" triggers you, i am truly sorry! you need to start reading what i want, not answering things that were not asked in the first place.
    if someone needs to relax and start reading first it might be yourself, calm down now, lets focus on the problem here, can we agree on that?

  12. #9092
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitaen View Post
    bro, relax! if "like a monkey" triggers you, i am truly sorry! you need to start reading what i want, not answering things that were not asked in the first place.
    if someone needs to relax and start reading first it might be yourself, calm down now, lets focus on the problem here, can we agree on that?
    These posts actually made me laugh - there seems to be a lot of miscommunication (or rather, thoughts LOST in communication). Let me try to boil this down a bit:

    Kitaen is saying the "ideal perfect world" rotation would be to liberally spam FR until 3 stacks since this would logically lead to higher DPS, and he is saying that some times he cannot do this SINCE he would be rage starved if he did so. He was initially asking if the CoF trinket allows for a higher level of liberal FR usage with ring, gloves and 4 pc (FYI I don't know since I don't have gloves or CoF).

    Upon reading his post, Tatsujin seemed to have zeroed in on the term "rage starved" and thought THAT was the issue (not the CoF trinket) and tried to help by saying that the CURRENT optimum rotation to avoid rage starving is to conservatively use FR.

    I guess the major miscommunication is what both of you believe fits the term "optimum rotation/use of FR." For Kitaen who parses high and is pushing for endgame, his "optimum rotation" is an "ideal" rotation where one could spam FR liberally; whereas Tatsujin is saying that the CURRENT optimum rotation is conservative use of FR. The other point of confusion was the term "rage starved." Tatsujin (and most people) would assume being rage starved means running out of rage, but Kitaen's definition is rather not HAVING enough rage to liberally spam FR and having to hold back (and therefore affecting DPS).

    Pretty entertaining overall...

  13. #9093
    Quote Originally Posted by Conniption View Post
    These posts actually made me laugh - there seems to be a lot of miscommunication (or rather, thoughts LOST in communication). Let me try to boil this down a bit:

    Kitaen is saying the "ideal perfect world" rotation would be to liberally spam FR until 3 stacks since this would logically lead to higher DPS, and he is saying that some times he cannot do this SINCE he would be rage starved if he did so. He was initially asking if the CoF trinket allows for a higher level of liberal FR usage with ring, gloves and 4 pc (FYI I don't know since I don't have gloves or CoF).

    Upon reading his post, Tatsujin seemed to have zeroed in on the term "rage starved" and thought THAT was the issue (not the CoF trinket) and tried to help by saying that the CURRENT optimum rotation to avoid rage starving is to conservatively use FR.

    I guess the major miscommunication is what both of you believe fits the term "optimum rotation/use of FR." For Kitaen who parses high and is pushing for endgame, his "optimum rotation" is an "ideal" rotation where one could spam FR liberally; whereas Tatsujin is saying that the CURRENT optimum rotation is conservative use of FR. The other point of confusion was the term "rage starved." Tatsujin (and most people) would assume being rage starved means running out of rage, but Kitaen's definition is rather not HAVING enough rage to liberally spam FR and having to hold back (and therefore affecting DPS).

    Pretty entertaining overall...
    thank you, my lack in writing skills perfectly summed up here, i've nothing more to add, absolutely on point! great post <3

  14. #9094
    I have tested CoF as Arms on a Training Puppet.
    I recorded the time when i could use BC with and without CoF.
    The results are quite frustrating. Because it seems right, that CoF proccs only twice in a minute for us arms warriors... = (
    I played like this for the testing:
    Started the fight with all CDs (including BC). Then played my rota till i used BC the fifth time and then ended the fight.
    The fight length with BC was 2:15 Minutes and without it was 2:34 Minutes. Overall i could use BC 19 seconds earlier than without. The time between the BCs with the trinket were about 22 till 28 seconds, depending on the procc of it. Without the trinket the time between BC was almost all the time around 30 - 31 seconds...
    Reminding that the trinket resets the CD of BC by 5 seconds, this means that the trinkets procc occured about only 4 times...(is my result correct?)
    Nevertheless, it shows, that this trinket isnt made for arms warrior (instead buffing only fury again!).
    Its really sad, that a super new content trinket isnt good for us just like a trinket from the first raid of the expansion (i mean SA)...
    Last edited by Rangatira; 2017-02-13 at 07:42 PM.

  15. #9095
    Deleted
    Hey guys this might be a silly question but during the fight with Skorpyon, when he does his shock wave ability and knocks you back, can we use that knock back to our advantage to charge back into the fight without hitting the clouds around the edges of the room and gain some rage? I've tried it a few times and I know shock wave does little to no damage but I could never tell if any adds spawn so I wonder if getting hit by shock-wave has a domino effect where even if you don't physically hit the clouds, it still counts as your character going into the clouds or if shock-wave is a completely separate ability on it's own that isn't connected to the clouds in anyway.

    I love the idea of using this ability to my advantage as not only does it looks bad ass charging back in mid flight but it also gives back a nice chunk of rage. Anyone ever tried this?
    Last edited by mmoc1742bd4083; 2017-02-13 at 08:08 PM.

  16. #9096
    Quote Originally Posted by Rangatira View Post
    I have tested CoF as Arms on a Training Puppet.
    I recorded the time when i could use BC with and without CoF.
    The results are quite frustrating. Because it seems right, that CoF proccs only twice in a minute for us arms warriors... = (
    I played like this for the testing:
    Started the fight with all CDs (including BC). Then played my rota till i used BC the fifth time and then ended the fight.
    The fight length with BC was 2:15 Minutes and without it was 2:34 Minutes. Overall i could use BC 19 seconds earlier than without. The time between the BCs with the trinket were about 22 till 28 seconds, depending on the procc of it. Without the trinket the time between BC was almost all the time around 30 - 31 seconds...
    Reminding that the trinket resets the CD of BC by 5 seconds, this means that the trinkets procc occured about only 4 times...(is my result correct?)
    Nevertheless, it shows, that this trinket isnt made for arms warrior (instead buffing only fury again!).
    Its really sad, that a super new content trinket isnt good for us just like a trinket from the first raid of the expansion (i mean SA)...
    The RPPM for Arms is 3.3, so in 2:19, it should have procced ~7.65 times on average. You'd think that'd mean that you'd see your fight length being about 7.65*5 = 38.25s shorter, but Anger Management massively reduces the effectiveness of the trinket's CD reduction. The base CD of BC is 60s, and since AM doesn't work while BC is active(since you're not spending rage), that means the remaining 55s of CD time(assuming w/o 4pc) after BC is over ticks off in only 26s(5 + 26 = 31s total CD time). That means when CoF reduces the base CD of BC by 5 seconds, it's not going to reduce the true CD time from 31->26s, it's going to reduce it by about (26/55)*5 = 2.36 seconds. 7.65*2.36 = 18.08s, which is roughly the rate you actually saw.
    Last edited by Xanthan; 2017-02-13 at 11:19 PM.

  17. #9097
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Natty354 View Post
    Hey guys this might be a silly question but during the fight with Skorpyon, when he does his shock wave ability and knocks you back, can we use that knock back to our advantage to charge back into the fight without hitting the clouds around the edges of the room and gain some rage?
    Yes you can, done it several times on hc but you got to spam that charge cause you will get out of range fast. Dunno about mythic, didn't dare to try it, yet ^^

  18. #9098
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthan View Post
    The RPPM for Arms is 3.3, so in 2:19, it should have procced ~7.65 times on average. You'd think that'd mean that you'd see your fight length being about 7.65*5 = 38.25s shorter, but Anger Management massively reduces the effectiveness of the trinket's CD reduction. The base CD of BC is 60s, and since AM doesn't work while BC is active(since you're not spending rage), that means the remaining 55s of CD time(assuming w/o 4pc) after BC is over ticks off in only 26s(5 + 26 = 31s total CD time). That means when CoF reduces the base CD of BC by 5 seconds, it's not going to reduce the true CD time from 31->26s, it's going to reduce it by about (26/55)*5 = 2.36 seconds. 7.65*2.36 = 18.08s, which is roughly the rate you actually saw.
    So is CoF BiS or no? If not then what trinket should we aim for, besides DoS?

  19. #9099
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatsujin View Post
    So is CoF BiS or no? If not then what trinket should we aim for, besides DoS?
    Kil'jaedens, Spontaneous Appendages, Arcano Crystal, Mastery Stat Stick, Terrorbound Nexus. Claw is good for multitarget stuff. All depends on ilvl/application, COF is easier to get at high ilvl but doesn't work out that well because of poor synergy with Anger Management and the STR not benefitting Draught of Souls damage. Arms isn't very good in NH, Draught of Souls is literally carrying the spec and you kinda have to embrace that.

    Adding it to my sim I did yesterday for comparison



    If I replace Legendary Legs with 890 Chronomatic Anomaly (Haste/Mas) legs and then swap in Kil'jaedens for that specific slot we get.



    Bear in mind that Arcano is so high because of how close we sit to Haste caps, one at 10% ish, another at 13% ish while this sim set would sit between 10-15% haste depending on the trinkets used. So for example Spon + Urn sim low because the Haste drops well below optimal values for these breakpoints, in a gearset with more haste Arcano would be lower and Spon would likely be top out of the non-legendaries.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2017-02-14 at 02:57 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  20. #9100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Kil'jaedens, Spontaneous Appendages, Arcano Crystal, Mastery Stat Stick, Terrorbound Nexus. Claw is good for multitarget stuff. All depends on ilvl/application, COF is easier to get at high ilvl but doesn't work out that well because of poor synergy with Anger Management and the STR not benefitting Draught of Souls damage. Arms isn't very good in NH, Draught of Souls is literally carrying the spec and you kinda have to embrace that.

    Adding it to my sim I did yesterday for comparison



    If I replace Legendary Legs with 890 Chronomatic Anomaly (Haste/Mas) legs and then swap in Kil'jaedens for that specific slot we get.



    Bear in mind that Arcano is so high because of how close we sit to Haste caps, one at 10% ish, another at 13% ish while this sim set would sit between 10-15% haste depending on the trinkets used. So for example Spon + Urn sim low because the Haste drops well below optimal values for these breakpoints, in a gearset with more haste Arcano would be lower and Spon would likely be top out of the non-legendaries.

    my sims look similiar, and i am at 18% haste, yet arcanocrystal comes out on top (way way ahead, like in your sims).
    i wonder if that is correct. arcanocrystal beeing 25 ilvls below SA sims 8k higher, that looks fishy to me, breakpoint or not.

    and quite frankly, a 940 kil jaedens is only 1k above a 860 arcanocrystal? mehh

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