Midwinter stops raiding

[Deleted]

instead this twists into everything you do that does not gain AP feels like you are wasting time playing. want to farm transmog? should farm AP instead. mount? AP. achieves? AP. pvp? AP.

also the bold part is debateable.

E-fucking-xactly. Personally i saw from about 3? months into expac that my luck is horrible as usual and said fuck it, i did some 95-100 percentiles across 8 specs/3 toons i was 'maining', was cool after going into the whole logs thing and climbing from 20 perentile to top, now ill just farm mounts/achievs and play more casual cus the grind will be retarded and i dont even have friends to play with to make it easier ...

[Daffan]

The less guilds in contention the worse. Oh well...

[Hoodzilla]

Its not just the top guilds, I know another reason I just quit was just looking at 7.2. Who the hell wants to keep grinding these dungeons? I know I am in the minority but Nighthold just does not do it for me.

[Demeia]

Precisely. It feels like you are wasting your time. It's not an objective assessment. If people actually stopped to analyse the situation for a few seconds maybe sanity would start to prevail.

Blizzard intended the AP system to be something you progress slowly over a long period of time. They didn't place strict parameters on it so as to allow people to choose to play at their own pace. Instead what has happened is that some people feel the need to devote every waking second to squeezing out every last ounce of AP because they haven't bothered to sit down and rationally look at whether it makes sense or not.

The whole thing to me is that they pulled the plug on Mechanar being the best valor run fairly quickly. But we're months in and they still haven't addressed Maw. It's just sloppy. This whole system is sloppy. I'm not an elite raider but even my lesser grind makes me feel pretty crappy. I have more free time, I could grind 54 AP and help my guild...but I find the grind far too depressing.

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This assumes it's the same people. Setting a weekly cap that is achievable turns it into a chore for everyone. Having no cap means that stupid people grind themselves into dust. IMO the latter is better.

I can't really see this argument. I'm fairly sure the majority of players log on and do their own thing and wouldn't even know there was such a thing as weekly cap. The people that would have a cap "turn into a chore for everyone"... Aren't those people already grinding the hell out of AP anyway? If you care about player progress, you're trying to get as much AP as you can and with no weekly cap, there's no limit, there's no place you should stop.

Also, doesn't the same logic apply? Aren't those people determined to get the cap when it would be a "chore" guilty of being "stupid people"?

For my part I believe insults regarding the intelligence of other people should be banned from the internet .

[Astigmatizm]

I guess I have to spell it out: Paragon artifact levels have the same nett effect as ilevel. In other words the "requirement" to have a level 54 artifact weapon can be mitigated by spending a bit more time farming better gear. So, to be clear, Mythic NH is not tuned for level 54 artifacts. It's tuned for a gear strength that can be achieved by a combination of Artifact Paragon level plus X weeks of gear obtained during progression.

Sure, if you want to clear the hardest content in the game in 3 weeks, you'll probably need to have maxxed your artifact. Not that this should really be an issue at this stage. Reaching level 54 by the start of NH was actually pretty trivial for any dedicated player, as evidenced by the way a not entirely insignificant number of players were complaining about having nothing to spend their AP tokens on having done more than 3 times the effort required to get their main artifact levelled up even before NH arrived (so much so that Blizzard had to make those tokens sellable).

So really, why people think this proves that the new AP grind is a bad thing is a mystery.

Call me when a guild downs Mythic Guldan in his current form without a guild group full of maxed artifact weapons.

Do you really think that most guilds attempting Guldan now after close-to-a-month aren't geared to the teeth? (especially since they do split-raids in heroic). Go look at the average ilvl of groups that down Elisande. Please tell me where they are going to find "more" gear.

[Demeia]

You know probably the simplest solution solution to this would be to lock the traits behind a weekly schedule. If you're grinding slower, you'll catch up those traits through AK increases. If you're grinding harder, you'll get them on schedule. Pretty much everyone would go into Tomb with about the same artifact power and those that were behind would, indeed, catch up through AK.

[Raelbo]

The whole thing to me is that they pulled the plug on Mechanar being the best valor run fairly quickly. But we're months in and they still haven't addressed Maw. It's just sloppy. This whole system is sloppy.

That's because it's a non-issue. The problem with Maw isn't that it's the most effective way to get AP, it's that (most of) the people running ad nauseum it have deluded themselves as to the importance and urgency of obtaining that AP. You're not to going to solve that problem by nerfing Maw, because those people will simply find the next best thing to burn themselves out on.

I'm not an elite raider but even my lesser grind makes me feel pretty crappy. I have more free time, I could grind 54 AP and help my guild...but I find the grind far too depressing.

I am a casual raider. I think two people in my guild have 54 (one of whom got it on the weekend), and the most are below 50 still. I personally have level 49.

I don't grind for AP. I do the stuff I want to do and let it flow naturally. That is a combination of:

• World quests (probably 5-10 a day)
• Regular Raiding (4 hours a week)
• Heroics (maybe 2-3 a week)
• Mythics (maybe 2-3 a week)
• Mythic + (2-3 runs a week) and the weekly chest
• Casual PvP (normal BGs, Ashran, a few arenas here and there)
• Class hall missions
• LFR: Primarily I am there to collect transmog and I don't do every LFR wing every week.

At this pace I'll get to level 54 in a few weeks and then be start on offspecs but I don't use them and once 7.2 arrives those will be a lot easier to pick up with AK40 anyway.

I honestly don't see the point in putting in extra effort to push for 54. I'll get there regardless just doing the stuff I like at my own pace.

[ramayana1423]

The upcoming 7.2 AP grind is going to cause massive amount of top guilds to call it quits. Blizzard's obsession with endless grinds is a sick joke.

[Deleted]

Yeah, i defend a game where the 90% (let's say 85% so you are happy) of players can log in every day and do something really useful if they want to. Yeah WoD was so much better for that 10% of player, just log in 3 days a week and get your WF.

I have to agree. Legion offers a lot more to do for the vast majority of the playerbase than WoD did - which is definitely more important in my opinion. If this comes at the price of burning out the very small amount of people who push for World Firsts, it is unfortunate, but can't be helped unless Blizzard finds some way to make both work out at the same time.

[Paarthurnax]

The upcoming 7.2 AP grind is going to cause massive amount of top guilds to call it quits. Blizzard's obsession with endless grinds is a sick joke.

I've always thought it was weird that actually killing raid bosses didn't give a substantially larger chunk of the AP needed for your weapon progression. Every raid boss kill should drop an appropriate AP token guaranteed. It would have made more sense if the content was tuned for a 35 weapon and anything above that is a bonus, that way the content is slowly nerfed w/out them really having to do anything on their end.

[Erous]

Sucks. Historically one of my favorite guilds and, if given the opportunity, would've raided for them. If you're looking to return more casually or competitive in the future and need a top 10 holy pally, gimme a shout.

[Kazuchika]

I'd give up too if I went almost 2 weeks between kills that weren't Elisande or Gul'dan. Let's be honest MW was falling off in the middle of WoD and it became painfully apparently when Sloot left.

[Sparty]

It's often a Reflex, to do what you can to survive, if you can't outlast the winter, and your pants are full of sharts and farts.

[Narwal]

The AP grind certainly has some appeal to it. It makes continuously playing worth it. However, it clearly has a negative side to it as well. I think it was a worthy experiment, but that it's time for it to go. I would much rather have the option to get on some alts when my main is "done", than to never be done on my main. Just my opinion.

[Raelbo]

I can't really see this argument. I'm fairly sure the majority of players log on and do their own thing and wouldn't even know there was such a thing as weekly cap.

Of course they would because there would be some tracker that would tell them like VP in the past.

The people that would have a cap "turn into a chore for everyone"... Aren't those people already grinding the hell out of AP anyway?

No. Putting a cap on something is like setting a benchmark. It's a declaration that this is the expectation of what you should be doing. Having no cap says something different. It says you have to decide for yourself what cap you want.

In Legion things like weekly mythics (1 of each), Weekly mythic+ chest, daily Heroic, Daily random BG, number of raid bosses (weekly) and emissary quests are the caps they will chase.

If you care about player progress, you're trying to get as much AP as you can and with no weekly cap, there's no limit, there's no place you should stop

Not really. Because there is no mandatory cap, it's up to you to decide where to draw the line. All I am hearing is that people with no ability to moderate their behaviour are going to struggle. But the flip side of it is that it is very liberating for people who don't have that deficiency.

Also, doesn't the same logic apply? Aren't those people determined to get the cap when it would be a "chore" guilty of being "stupid people"?

Well certainly if there is no demonstrable need to reach the cap. The problem with caps though is that they implicitly set a benchmark which implies that this is where you should be.

With AP those benchmarks are based on AK. The expectation was that you should be doing your Artifact research, and when combined with the capped activities, most people were going to land up at a certain minumum Artifact level. Because the cost per level ramped up exponentially, the number of artifact levels between players wasn't that big.

Now that Artifact research is capped, it's all open ended, but the rewards for extra artifact levels beyond 35 or pretty small, so again, the obvious design intent is that it isn't a big deal to be chasing every point of AP.

For my part I believe insults regarding the intelligence of other people should be banned from the internet .

My intent was not to call you stupid, but rather to point out that the behaviour you're describing is foolhardy. But fair enough. I should probably have phrased it differently and instead of saying "stupid people" said "people behaving stupidly".

Which is honestly my view on this. The game shouldn't, on principle, be designed around restricting everyone to protect some people from behaving stupidly. Inherent in that opinion is that said stupid behaviour is not due to a lack of intelligence, but due to a willful lack of application thereof.

[Zandalariprelate]

I think the ap grind could had been at level 40 and your others specs get the same level in their artifacts, also the new chest from grinding reputation in 7.2 drop really nice gear of 880 ilvl and i think a few trinkets which are op in my opinion

[kamuimac]

Considering the fact that only 4 guilds have killed Mythic Guldan, and 11 others have killed Mythic Elisande (with the heaviest AP/Titanforge farming, class-stacking and legendary-poaching). It's quite clear to see what Nighthold is tuned for.

I figure we'll soon see many more guilds doing the same and going casual. The difficulty of mechanics is as good as ever - but the grind required to meet the number-checks (DPS, Healing) is simply not worth it.

Probably the worst gameplay-decision Blizzard has ever made - it is not difficult to farm 200+ Maw of Souls. It's simply bad design.

or maybe it was very deliberate decision aiming at achieving exackly that.

[InfernalDark]

Trump was so ashamed about their "progress" that he sent them to Mexico.

[Brewhan]

Progression raiding, LUL. Nobody outside of EU has even really cared in years now. Not really sure why the EU guilds do it, they get nothing for it. So much time and effort spent on something with zero reward.

Raiding is a little stagnant right now, and the only way that's ever going to change is if Blizzard gives some tangible reward to the world first race. If that happens we'll see some pretty fantastic competition from around the world, otherwise it's just a couple EU guilds battling it out for nothing.

Basically this progression top tier raiding is cringe in 2017 at least in america I feel like EU is the last hardcore wow players the rest have just said fuck it and gone casual with wow then spend the rest of time chillin with overwatch/twitch or some moba.

[Narwal]

I'd give up too if I went almost 2 weeks between kills that weren't Elisande or Gul'dan. Let's be honest MW was falling off in the middle of WoD and it became painfully apparently when Sloot left.

Honestly, the evolution of the raiding design is what killed ALL NA raiding, not just this guild. It is common knowledge, the argument forever, that NA players simply aren't afforded as much time to the game as the EU counterparts. We all know why this is. We have continued to see the bleeding edge raiding race require more and more out of raid progression. A huge time sink before even stepping foot into the raid. I don't see it changing.

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Considering the fact that only 4 guilds have killed Mythic Guldan, and 11 others have killed Mythic Elisande (with the heaviest AP/Titanforge farming, class-stacking and legendary-poaching). It's quite clear to see what Nighthold is tuned for.

I figure we'll soon see many more guilds doing the same and going casual. The difficulty of mechanics is as good as ever - but the grind required to meet the number-checks (DPS, Healing) is simply not worth it.

Probably the worst gameplay-decision Blizzard has ever made - it is not difficult to farm 200+ Maw of Souls. It's simply bad design.

I think you have a good grasp of what's occurring.