Does this approach stand a chance for bridging US?

[Manabomb]

Science is a set of tools to understand reality. It's not an ideology. Very few people apply science to everything. What you're talking about is logic.

Vegans are every bit as illogical as Christians that cherish a newborn's life but sends them off to die in wars when they reach a certain age of their choosing.

Humans are fallible. Newton believed in alchemy and god.

Humans only turn to the likeness of god because they use it to explain the things that they cannot explain themselves.

Newton only believed in god because there was something beyond his world of understanding. And he was right. The whole galaxy full of stars proved that right. But the galaxy we call the milky way wasn't god, just like how dark matter and dark energy that currently makes up 94% of our universe isn't god, either.

We just don't understand it yet.

[urasim]

To be fair, 'nutritional purposes' is not a sufficient justification for following such a diet; it's nutritionally incomplete and simply inferior to a variety of other, less restrictive diets even if you completely avoid convenience foods, processed flours and sugars. One would need to be either deluded or ignorant to follow this diet on the claim of nutritional superiority.

Yup, agreed 100%.

[Natylyaz]

That's the point. All you pro-lifers want children to be born. Not children fed, housed, educated or anything. How do I know? Because you vote for people that don't put tax money in education, or social services or healthcare. You're pro-birth. Pro-children in orphanges. Pro children on the streets.

People that are pro-life really, really need to take a second look at the exact morality of what "pro-life" is. Suddenly killing off a bunch of cells inside a uterus for less than 400$ seems like a less burden than paying 200,000$ of tax payer money for a child from birth to 18.

This is like Mother Theresa, she didn't care about helping or saving people, she cared about spreading the ideology of suffering as Jesus suffered.

[Manabomb]

Plus children with unstable living conditions/social safety nets/childhoods are more likely to become criminals. Even just moving through the justice system tacks on enormous costs, not even considering the damage done to society.

Yeah. Then you have a situation where non-aborted kids suddenly become the ranking lieutenants in a local gang. Or the local rapist, so that more women can have births they don't want and spawn more children without proper care.

[Natylyaz]

Veganism isn't about just eating. It's about not using any animal product in any aspect of life. I don't care about a random person adopting a vegan diet to lose weight. The real practicing vegans are irrational.

How so?
Vegans understand pigs have complex feelings and emotions, and therefore have an interest (and studies highlight this fact, it's not an ideology or a feeling).
They choose to respect this interest and let the pigs and other similar animals enjoy their freedom and let them live the way they see fit.

[Zoranon]

It is just lecturing people who are fed up with being lectured, so no.

"I know you have different opinions, but here is why mine are right and you should agree with them."

Yep, pretty much this.

I did not see any bridge building in this post, merely another lecture from a dismayed bien pensant.

Plus some differences cannot be bridged, especially the one she wrote about most. When one side thinks that woman should be free to do it and the other thinks abortion is murder, well you need to be really stupid to try building a bridge on this issue.

[Manabomb]

This is like Mother Theresa, she didn't care about helping or saving people, she cared about spreading the ideology of suffering as Jesus suffered.

Considering what I said is an elongated, paraphrased quote from a catholic nun, I hope not.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, pretty much this.

I did not see any bridge building in this post, merely another lecture from a dismayed bien pensant.

Plus some differences cannot be bridged, especially the one she wrote about most. When one side thinks that woman should be free to do it and the other thinks abortion is murder, well you need to be really stupid to try building a bridge on this issue.

Kind of have to build a bridge. Atleast then we might be able to educate the savage monkies that occupy the red dildo that runs through the center of our country.

Harr harr sarcasm har harr

[urasim]

How so?
Vegans understand pigs have complex feelings and emotions, and therefore have an interest (and studies highlight this fact, it's not an ideology or a feeling).
They choose to respect this interest and let the pigs and other similar animals enjoy their freedom and let them live the way they see fit.

I guess you missed the part where I said any animal product. Some won't even use pig waste(shit) to grow their food. This is irrational.

I think you are confusing vegans with vegetarians.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

I think if you understood conservatives and had any honest intention of bridging the gap, you wouldn't need a wall of text to do so.

All this post does is proselytize liberalism and preserve the ever-shrinking bubble of left-wing bigotry that gave us Trump.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, where it hurts, where it stinks, where we are vulnerable to change.

[Narwal]

i agree about abortion, generally debating matters in which religion has a say is a bit pointless, as it's about dogma and not logic or opinions

but you think that the actual 'battle' is over convincing them that they won't benefit from Trump's policies? imo it's impossible in the near future, how can you convince someone with predictions when he won't even listen to facts?

maybe in the longterm they might see that their lives did not get better, but we don't know if they'll actually be willing to attribute this to Trump's policies failing or some scapegoat as usual

Views on abortion are not based on religion. They're based on whether you believe a fetus is a human or not. It's that simple.

[Natylyaz]

Pigs aren't the only source of animal products, so continuing to argue this line of thinking purely on the basis of whether or not one should eat pigs is pretty hollow. Veganism would include opposition to consuming even insects, which are decidedly incapable of anything that might justify even the slightest degree of ethical consideration.

Semantics are tricky, I simply wanted to point out the rational and science-based thinking behind (some) proponents of veganism.
I agree it's debatable to include insects in an ethical debate, but leather is an easy target as it originates from animals similar to the pig.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you missed the part where I said any animal product. Some won't even use pig waste(shit) to grow their food. This is irrational.

I think you are confusing vegans with vegetarians.

The underlying idea is often similar behind both groups, animal suffering and animal life.
I agree this particular behaviour is irrational, but you can't dismiss the complete concept of animal rights based on one stupid idea (pig waste).

[Narwal]

That's the point. All you pro-lifers want children to be born. Not children fed, housed, educated or anything. How do I know? Because you vote for people that don't put tax money in education, or social services or healthcare. You're pro-birth. Pro-children in orphanges. Pro children on the streets.

People that are pro-life really, really need to take a second look at the exact morality of what "pro-life" is. Suddenly killing off a bunch of cells inside a uterus for less than 400$ seems like a less burden than paying 200,000$ of tax payer money for a child from birth to 18.

You make an assumption that everyone believes a fetus is just a bunch of cells. What if you had to live off the assumption that it is a human at conception, and that you just said it's better to kill a person for $400 than give them a chance to make something of themselves. You'd have to equate your statement to people we throw in jail. May as well just kill anyone who commits a crime because jail is too costly.

It's easy to brush people off as idiots when you ignore the whole point of the debate. If we were talking about picking a weed in a garden, the point you make would be true. Yes, pull the weed while it's young and easy to pluck. Unfortunately, it's hard to know it's just a weed in that womans body, when that weed could have been you.

Americans are a bunch that believe everyone deserves a shot, but that doesn't mean everyone deserves a handout. They believe in responsibility, that's how you can say "you need to take care of your child" and at the same time say "it's not my job to raise that child for you".

[Narwal]

On what basis do you claim length is strictly unnecessary if one understands conservatives and genuinely desires to bridge the gap? I do enjoy how we're still blaming the left for Trump, rather than the people who voted for him. Apparently voting against someone is now the same as voting for them. What a wild and colorful world of alternative facts we live in. Furthermore, the truth is not necessarily in the middle. That is fallacious. In many cases, one side or the other may just be completely correct.

It's not the left who are to blame for Trump. It is Barrack Obama's policies that are to blame. Sorry, but it's the truth. Obama's (the lefts) policies hurt more people than it helped, and the people it hurt voted against another term of them.

[urasim]

The underlying idea is often similar behind both groups, animal suffering and animal life.
I agree this particular behaviour is irrational, but you can't dismiss the complete concept of animal rights based on one stupid idea (pig waste).

Where did I ever dismiss it? I pointed out veganism, an ideology, can be as irrational as Christianity. Dunno why you went through the trouble of disagreeing with that only to then agree with that...

[AlphaOut]

To be fair, 'nutritional purposes' is not a sufficient justification for following such a diet; it's nutritionally incomplete and simply inferior to a variety of other, less restrictive diets even if you completely avoid convenience foods, processed flours and sugars. One would need to be either deluded or ignorant to follow this diet on the claim of nutritional superiority.

Nobody said it's superior. But it is a choice of a sound diet. A claim could be made that most vegans are about pro life and all that nonsense. I bring it up because I've been vegan for about a year. It started as a challenge, just dumb army guys making dumb bets. A year later I couldn't imagine going back. Frank medrano is a good person to look into as far as dietary knowledge. I'm not saying the majority of vegans do it for dietary purposes, but to make a generalization is very stretch.

[Cyanu]

I think if you understood conservatives and had any honest intention of bridging the gap, you wouldn't need a wall of text to do so.

All this post does is proselytize liberalism and preserve the ever-shrinking bubble of left-wing bigotry that gave us Trump.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, where it hurts, where it stinks, where we are vulnerable to change.

i understand conservatives well enough to know that Trump has nothing to do with them

conservatives are usually serious,polite, level headed people that take all things in moderation, they respect family, tradition, justice,order,consistency,duty and responsibility, they're the dominant ideology of the right wing and can be described as CENTRAL-right

they also dislike radicalism(whether from the left or the right), inconsistency and inaccuracies, hyperboles, populism, impulsive/erratic behavior, shortsighted thinking

their politicians reflect those values and are often the most serious in their behaviour, language and dress code, they're precise in their speech and moderate in their policies, rarely are they seen advocating for radical policy shifts, instead they focus on modifying and improving existing policies and the effectiveness of government

when European conservatives speak of Trump they usually describe him as: irresponsible,unstable, populist, hotheaded and untrustworthy and it's fully expected, Trump's 'flameboyant' personality, constant boasting, extravagant statements, contradictions and senseless policies are a huge turn off for conservatives, they just don't get along

conservatives are not my problem, wtf is happening in America is what i struggle to understand, currently there is no conservative party in the US, you get to pick from social democrats and the far right, which leaves a huge political void in the central, central-right,right space, most european countries have 2-4 parties in there before they get to the far-right... if i was an american conservative i'd feel that both parties fail to represent me

[Slant]

That's the point. All you pro-lifers want children to be born. Not children fed, housed, educated or anything. How do I know? Because you vote for people that don't put tax money in education, or social services or healthcare. You're pro-birth. Pro-children in orphanges. Pro children on the streets.

People that are pro-life really, really need to take a second look at the exact morality of what "pro-life" is. Suddenly killing off a bunch of cells inside a uterus for less than 400$ seems like a less burden than paying 200,000$ of tax payer money for a child from birth to 18.

I'm not pro-life nor contra-life. I'm German, I don't share the idiotic pseudo-political, near-religious fanatism that the US calls politics. So "you pro-lifers" really just shows me that you spent 2s skimming my post, saw a buzzphrase that triggered you and hastily grabbed the first box that you thought I might fit into.

Surprise! There is not a box in your mind that I could possibly, ever fit into. You will have to deal with me on a very personal argument-by-argument basis. Sorry if that's too much bother.

[Rooflesstoofless]

"I worked part-time during undergrad so I'm part of the working class too!"

[rosebull]

I'm not pro-life nor contra-life. I'm German, I don't share the idiotic pseudo-political, near-religious fanatism that the US calls politics. So "you pro-lifers" really just shows me that you spent 2s skimming my post, saw a buzzphrase that triggered you and hastily grabbed the first box that you thought I might fit into.

Surprise! There is not a box in your mind that I could possibly, ever fit into. You will have to deal with me on a very personal argument-by-argument basis. Sorry if that's too much bother.

I just want to say most americans think the way you do, but the vocal minority definitely gives a different reflection of things here. Its pretty crazy to see how people think in amerca no lie.

[Powerogue]

I don't have to agree with everything in there to agree with the premise: We need to talk to each other. Closing ourselves off in hugboxes of the same opinions on either side just increases that "us vs them" tribalism.

It's why I disagree with a lot of the restrictions we put on these forums. Yeah, things get heated, but I'd rather that than just never talk about current issues. Religion for example plays a huge part in why people think what they do, whether we like it or not. Avoiding the "elephant in the room" of whatever topic we're discussing hinders understanding.