"Skills, not gear should matter in PvP" - Look at it now...

[Morgaith]

PvP=Skills
PvE=Gear

For this to be true the game would have to be balanced in the first place.

[Maduk]

Ok. If you say so.

Go to the statistics tab and look for yourself:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/statistic#21

[Kagthul]

He played just 72 Arenas and 10 BGs. Thats quite possible in just "a few hours".
He isn't lying.

... 10BGs is more than few hours on its own.

Even on fast groups, BG queues are ~10-15 minutes.

And during those weeks, he never did a single other activity that rewarded gear (WQ gear drops dont show up in my feed on the Armory) and raised his iLevel floor?

BS in the extreme.

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Depends! I got 840 gear from instance, and 855 gear from BG. Your argument is invalid
Also I like more PvP now. Your argument is invalid

Not how that works.

Osmeric is stating a fact (PvP reward gear is bad for all but like two or three specs in the entire game because Vers is on every piece and is a trash stat); you're stating an opinion.

[Deleted]

Damn facts are hard to swallow, the char is 880 now after doing a few rbgs as well, continue to be blind though.

70 arenas and 10bgs is not "few hours", but like I said.... if you say, ok. Nobody's saying you can't reach that ilevel through pvp with some rng luck, but I'm not sure why you keep acting like that was what was said.

Go to the statistics tab and look for yourself:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/statistic#21

The link doesn't open up anything but deaths by faction X for me, but it doesn't matter. I believe what you said about those statistics. It takes more than " a few hours" to finish those.

[Kagthul]

And yeah.. particularly good RNG luck. Like... 1/2 to 3/5ths of his gear was Warforged or Titanforged.

NO ONE said you cant get good iLevel from high-end rated PvP.

Ever.

What we're saying is its not "a few hours".

What we've been saying since the Alpha was... removing tangible rewards from casual PvP and the 88% of the ladder who CANNOT EVER ACHIEVE HIGH RATING (due to the way a pyramidal ladder system works fundamentally) is going to cause PvP to collapse.

ANd it is.

[Deleted]

70 arenas and 10bgs is not "few hours", but like I said.... if you say, ok. Nobody's saying you can't reach that ilevel through pvp with some rng luck, but I'm not sure why you keep acting like that was what was said.



The link doesn't open up anything but deaths by faction X for me, but it doesn't matter. I believe what you said about those statistics. It takes more than " a few hours" to finish those.

It really doesn't when you queue 2s instant queue games that take less than a minute

[Maduk]

70 arenas and 10bgs is not "few hours"

70 Arenas are like 3-4 hours tops (with 2-3min queues).
10 rated BGs also around 1-2h if you have a group.
5-6h are just a few hours in my book. It's just an evening of dedicated pvp.
Just study his activity feed / statistics. Between his artifact and his first pvp epic (865) were no other epics.
So 865 seems to be the base for arena/rbg rewards.

[Osmeric]

Osmeric is stating a fact (PvP reward gear is bad for all but like two or three specs in the entire game because Vers is on every piece and is a trash stat); you're stating an opinion.

Well, my main is a ret paladin (not the character Osmeric, btw) so I kinda like vers. The problem is the ilvl is just so low for PvE players who dabble in casual PvP. I think I got one item briefly that was an upgrade from a "PvE-while-flagged" WQ.

[Kagthul]

70 Arenas are like 3-4 hours tops (with 2-3min queues).
10 rated BGs also around 1-2h if you have a group.
5-6h are just a few hours in my book. It's just an evening of dedicated pvp.
Just study his activity feed / statistics. Between his artifact and his first pvp epic (865) were no other epics.
So 865 seems to be the base for arena/rbg rewards.

You realize WQ rewards dont show up in that feed, right? And the first few items he got were warforged/titanforged.

1-2 hours for 10 RBGs? Can you invite me to your world where there isnt a 45 minute queue per game? Get real.

[Professor Expert]

What I don't like about the lack of gear importance in pvp is the inability to customize the character to the way I want. I've always excelled running uncommon setups that were deviations from cookie-cutter in terms of gemming, enchants and what not...but all that is gone and that's what makes RPG style games fun - being able to alter your performance by getting new and better gear, as well as swapping out for different pieces that change the way things work.

Gear discrepancies was the excuse used by pvetards who were never going to pvp on a regular basis but wanted to feel "strong" like they do in pve, stomping everything in a couple hits. Red herring and nothing more. Blizzard needs to stop caving to whiners, develop their own formula that's fun and stick with it. Hearing people out doesn't mean catering to the whims of the loudest criers.

[Super Kami Dende]

Osmeric is stating a fact (PvP reward gear is bad for all but like two or three specs in the entire game because Vers is on every piece and is a trash stat); you're stating an opinion.

Both are opinions. lmao. Vers is good for many specs in PvP and is the most linear in terms of stat templates.

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70 Arenas are like 3-4 hours tops (with 2-3min queues).

70x 2-3 = 140-210mins. so 2-3 and a half hours of just Queues, add to that many Arena matches lasting 5-10 mins with some going longer, your Math is utterly wrong.

[Kagthul]

Both are opinions. lmao. Vers is good for many specs in PvP and is the most linear in terms of stat templates.

We werent discussing if vers is good in PvP, since you HAVE no option to stack it or not ('cause Big Daddy Blizz knows whats good for you, Template) We were discussing that the guy complaining about PvP being "mandatory" because you couldg et 880s "so easily" was required for PvE.. .

where Vers is most definitely NOT a great stat for all but a tiny handful of specs.

[Deleted]

The concept of PvP being 100% skill based was good. Let's be real the only thing that PvP gear did was stomping undergeared newbies.

However the current state is even worse than before. Yeah gear doesn't matter as much but you got the mfking AP grind and PvP talents. It takes way more time to grind those than PvP did in previous xpacs.

I will never understand why they didn't just go all in with the concept of making everything fixed in PvP. Either no traits or all traits unlocked. Fixed stats, no bonus increase from ilvl. Anyone can start playing instantly.

In my opinion PvP shouldn't even reward gear as it is now. I don't know nothing really makes sense anymore. You play PvP for rating. That should be the one and only reward. Everything else exists just to keep the average pvp pleb hooked.

[Lightbull]

But gear doesn't matter... I could kill people on my Ele Shaman back when it was in 810 gear.

World PvP is a different story, but World PvP never took "skill" in the first place.

[shoegazing]

between gear (which does matter), artifact relics (unlocking the 3rd one does matter), artifact power, and honor talents...

...Legion PvP is the worst grind for PvP that has ever existed

Blizzard has completely failed to understand what makes us want to play PvP! We don't do it for the character progression, we do it because playing PvP is fun!

At least, it used to be before the class designers decided to prune half of our buttons and turn the game into a dumbed down damage race where every class has a similar playstyle and you just chase people around mashing 223 223 223 like a moron

[Kagthul]

The concept of PvP being 100% skill based was good.

Good for the tiny hardcore group that likes PvPing for PvPing's sake.

Let's be real the only thing that PvP gear did was stomping undergeared newbies.

It also allowed you to gateway into PvE without having completely shit gear, among other things.

However the current state is even worse than before. Yeah gear doesn't matter as much

It actually matters almost exactly as much. Gap between Honor gear (attainable in six hours in WoD, without even PvPing if you didn't want to) and Conquest gear was 9.4%. Current possible gear gap? about 10%. Less likely to be the full 10% than in WoD (where being in a full set of Honor blues vs a guy in full CQ was more likely), but gear still matters exactly as much.

but you got the mfking AP grind and PvP talents. It takes way more time to grind those than PvP did in previous xpacs.

Yup. And a lot of PvPers mentioned it from day 1 of the Alpha, and we were all basically told to shut up by Holinka, because Templates will fix it. And individual tuning. And templates. We're seeing how well that's worked out. So many knobs to turn!

I will never understand why they didn't just go all in with the concept of making everything fixed in PvP. Either no traits or all traits unlocked. Fixed stats, no bonus increase from ilvl. Anyone can start playing instantly.

In my opinion PvP shouldn't even reward gear as it is now. I don't know nothing really makes sense anymore. You play PvP for rating. That should be the one and only reward. Everything else exists just to keep the average pvp pleb hooked.

Uh, yeah. Because the "average PvP pleb" makes up about 90%+ of the PvP base. Or more. Exact numbers are hard to know, but Armory mining has clearly shown that hardcore ladder-climbers have never been more than 10% of the base.

Throughout most of WoW, since the implementation of the TBC prepatch Honor-as-a-currency Honor System (which survived essentially unscathed through WoD - roughly 10 years) PvP was THE MOST active form of end-game activity participated in.

Because it offered rewards to anyone, no matter how casual. You could be the kind of guy who logged in once a day, did three BGs, and logged out, and in about ~12 weeks, you could have the best gear for your preferred activity and be on an equal footing with everyone else. As a benefit (up until PvP Power in Pandaria, but reversed again in WoD) you had a "decent" set of gear to use in PvE that would at least let you not be a liability (and in some seasons, that was actually better than low-end raiding, but that is separate issue with the overlap of PvP seasons and raid tiers more than anything else).

Armory datamining showed that pretty much throughout the entire Honor-as-a-currency era, 42-48% of ALL max level characters had the 27,000 Honor and Conquest achievements for most seasons. By comparison, less than 10% ever get AotC achievements or do any raiding above LFR. Ever.

This is an MMO, not a competitive e-sport, no matter how badly Blizzard wants it to be. People want meaningful progression, and they want meaningful rewards for their time spent.

Right now, PvP offers ZERO meaningful rewards to anyone who isn't interested in ladder-climbing. Even "plebs" can do math and realize that even if they DID want to do rated PvP, by the math, 88% of them WILL NEVER get good gear from it because the nature of a pyramidal ladder system WILL NOT LET THEM.

So there's no reason to PvP. You can get higher iLevel gear than you can acquire except above 1900 rating from doing WQs for less effort.

No incentive to PvP = far less people queueing. Its not uncommon for me to see ~20 minute queue times as Horde on Bleeding Hollow (NA). Thats a busy PvP server. Theyre getting longer daily.

The ladder last season had the fewest participants EVER. Because the people who used to inflate the bottom of the ladder (people who didn't push rating but did enough games to cap out their CQ for the week) abandoned rated play in droves. Boom, ladder collapse. Boom, huge issues with titles that Blizz had to scramble to cover as a "mistake" (Clue: it wasn't. The original number of people who got titles almost exactly fit the number that SHOULD have gotten titles based on ladder participation).

No one who thought about this for even a few minutes during the Alpha and Beta is surprised. We call called it.

And then, predictably, it happened.

what people here have to remember (and this goes for me too) is that the "plebs" keep the World of Warcraft going 'round. Blizzard's stubborn insistence on catering to people who make up a nearly insignificant portion of the player base continually stuns me, even though it shouldnt. (And im somewhere in between "pleb" and "ladder climber". I hate Rated, always have, dont participate (never did). But i like to progress, and i got between 2-5 characters to full CQ every season just doing random BGs.)

Blizz needs to focus on what makes PvP fun for the "plebs". The rest will sort itself out. If all the super competitive people leave...

no one would notice.

[Snegovik]

It really doesn't when you queue 2s instant queue games that take less than a minute

2s skirmish yes. 2s rated above 2.2kcr last much longer, 3s games are faster than 2s by a lot.

[Cuppy]

Not how that works.

Osmeric is stating a fact (PvP reward gear is bad for all but like two or three specs in the entire game because Vers is on every piece and is a trash stat); you're stating an opinion.

all but like two or three specs

So it's a fact because only few classes use that stat, but becomes an opinion when it's not the class you play? Ok then
These days ilvl is the only stat people give a shit about, atleast in activities I do.
Therefore for me: bigger ilvl -> better.

[Elim Garak]

I always advocated for gearless PvP. No PvE gear in PvP is allowed, all PvP gear has NO stats and just for looks and prestige. PvP should reward PvE gear though so PvP players can be up to speed in terms of iLvls when they are out in the PvE world. And add some awesome PvP exclusive stuff that only the top of the top can get as a reward each season.

[Irian]

I think the gear change was absolutely wonderful and long overdue. Class balance as a whole however is downright atrocious with some classes just feeling like they're downright good at everything, having gained virtually everything they lost back in the form of PvP talents while other classes had their toolkits stripped to the absolute minimum. Instead of the "Everyone is good at everything" problem we now instead have "One or two classes are good at everything and everyone else is excessively specialized to the point of being niche options if a comp works around you".