It's Official, Trump's Team Full Contact with Russian Intelligence.

[Cthulhu 2020]

McConnell has already indicated that he feels an investigation is "highly warranted". While not the same thing, it could get the ball rolling for less conservative GOP Senators and Congresspeople to jump on board the impeachment train.

We did get 172 investigations into Hillary over far less damning things. Probably about time congress opens up a full, high profile investigation into Trump's ties to Russia.

If the Trump cultists honestly believe there is nothing there, they shouldn't be worried about an investigation. In fact, they should want it, as an investigation proving his innocence (which Trumpkin cultists so firmly believe) in the matter would be a great boon to the credibility of the Trump administration. However, their vehement protestation of an investigation seems to indicate that they're not so confident Trump is innocent in the matter.

In fact, many probably think Trump being compromised by Russia is a good thing, and while knowing that it's highly illegal, don't want Trump removed from office for it, and would rather just have their traitorous leader stay in power.

[mage21]

Clandestine/secret = not out in the open/hidden. These contacts sure as hell were not conducted in public view.



And no the NYT did not admit that these contacts could have been unwitting. The NYT stated that if you are in Russia or the Ukraine where Russian agents are widespread and deeply embedded in society that contacts such as this could have been unwitting. None of that applies here.

If you're claiming that the conversations were knowingly with Russian intelligence and purposefully kept hidden, the information out right now simply does not bear that out.

Having a conversation that you aren't aware is with a spy agency and you happen to not bring it up, because to you it's just another normal phone call, that's not you having a clandestine conversation.

Now I'm not saying that's definitively what happened, but the information we have leaves that as a possibility.

[Dawnseven]

Anyways, sure, it may be enough to warrant an investigation considering the implications if there turns out to be something there. But I doubt the investigation will turn up anything worth mentioning. We'll just have to wait and see.

If there even IS an investigation. There's been a bunch of people screaming for one, sure, but so far the resolutions put forth in the House and Senate have all been assigned to committees where they will likely die if enough people don't speak up. The administration, in the meantime, is saying "we didn't do anything wrong, trust us, the bigger problem is these leaks!!". That may or may not be true, but it's a different topic. Investigate the Russia thing. Investigate the leaks. Be transparent. If it's all much ado about nothing than the investigation will prove that. People can't say lawbreakers should be locked up, unless they're people they like, and they can't say leaks about people they don't like are good and about people they do like are bad.

[thegaultman]

Maybe I'm missing something, or watch to many movies, but isn't what's happening kinda business as usual? It would seem to me that it would be perfectly normal for an incoming administration to make contacts with powerful countries like Russia in order to solidify their policies. As for talking to spies, is that not how "back channeling" works? The real workings of diplomacy? Again, maybe I watch to many movies, definitely not an expert in these matters, and not very political, but it does seem to me like it's not really that big of a deal.

[alexw]

If you're claiming that the conversations were knowingly with Russian intelligence and purposefully kept hidden, the information out right now simply does not bear that out.

Having a conversation that you aren't aware is with a spy agency and you happen to not bring it up, because to you it's just another normal phone call, that's not you having a clandestine conversation.

Now I'm not saying that's definitively what happened, but the information we have leaves that as a possibility.

Actually we already full well know that the conversations were purposefully kept hidden, since there have been numerous denials over many months by those involved stating that they never occurred. As for them happening knowingly its just not credible that those involved did not know. We have reports that the contacts were spread over many months and involved multiple people close to Trump, and it was with people pretty senior in the FSB. That doesn't happen by accident.

[Edge-]

Maybe I'm missing something, or watch to many movies, but isn't what's happening kinda business as usual? It would seem to me that it would be perfectly normal for an incoming administration to make contacts with powerful countries like Russia in order to solidify their policies. As for talking to spies, is that not how "back channeling" works? The real workings of diplomacy? Again, maybe I watch to many movies, definitely not an expert in these matters, and not very political, but it does seem to me like it's not really that big of a deal.

No. Campaigns do not communicate with foreign governments during their campaigns, and especially not foreign intelligence officials. These reports indicate these discussions were happening as far back as early 2016, before the general election was even underway.

And no, diplomacy is not really about talking with spies dude. That's espionage and intelligence gathering. Diplomacy is working with foreign governments, which can at times include their intelligence arms, but usually does not.

[Xeones]

Maybe I'm missing something, or watch to many movies, but isn't what's happening kinda business as usual? It would seem to me that it would be perfectly normal for an incoming administration to make contacts with powerful countries like Russia in order to solidify their policies. As for talking to spies, is that not how "back channeling" works? The real workings of diplomacy? Again, maybe I watch to many movies, definitely not an expert in these matters, and not very political, but it does seem to me like it's not really that big of a deal.

I'm not sure what legality there is in campaigns making deals with foreign nations. We do know what Flynn did was illegal.

But are you seriously going to say there is nothing suspicious about his campaign being in contact with Russian agents while Russia was hacking us to interfere in the election? Not to mention Trump worshiping the ground Putin walks on, going so far as to through the Us under the buss with that recent oreilley interview.

Sure there could be nothing, but if there is something we could be facing serious national security risks. We have to investigate this. Potentially selling us out to Russia isn't business as usual.

[alexw]

Maybe I'm missing something, or watch to many movies, but isn't what's happening kinda business as usual? It would seem to me that it would be perfectly normal for an incoming administration to make contacts with powerful countries like Russia in order to solidify their policies. As for talking to spies, is that not how "back channeling" works? The real workings of diplomacy? Again, maybe I watch to many movies, definitely not an expert in these matters, and not very political, but it does seem to me like it's not really that big of a deal.

No that isn't how it works. Normally such contacts are between diplomats working for the state department who are authorized to have those conversations. The information of whatever is discussed is kept on record by government officials, and if it is on sensitive subjects stamped with some level of "secret" clearance so that only those with the need to know can access those records. Thus there is always a federal paper trail of some sort or other which helps keeps those involved honest and the discussions within the bounds of acceptable policy.

This isn't what happened here. Its people close to Trump having contact with FSB spies where noone knows what was discussed (outside of Trump's inner circle) and where there is no paper trail or governmental record. Indeed, there was no involvement of the federal bureaucracy in this at all. That makes it highly suspicious and is way way way outside of what normally happens.

[Higphriest]

Except Trump confirmed this. Why would he be complaining about "leaks" if they weren't true? Pretty much fucking confirms that this is true.

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And it wasn't just Manafort, but hey, keep deflecting. You aren't helping your fucking case.

Did you even read the article, it says specifically on the first line that Utinil posted "Several of Mr. Trump's associates, like Mr. Manafort".
He didn't deflect anything, he quoted exactly what was in the article.

[3mperor]

Fun fact: Reality isn't fake news just because you don't like it..... be rational.

Clinton - email servers we had Trump and supporters saying lock her up, on evidence obtained from WIKILEAKS via RUSSIA.
Trump and co - direct interaction with Russian intelligence, on evidence obtained from US government officials.

If this is fake news, then you have to define the thing that lost Clinton the election as fake news then too.

Lol do you do anything better with your time, all I imagine you do is scour the internet day after day looking for something to use on trump get a hobby.

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Also this whole all Russians are bad thing is fucking racist.

[mage21]

Actually we already full well know that the conversations were purposefully kept hidden, since there have been numerous denials over many months by those involved stating that they never occurred. As for them happening knowingly its just not credible that those involved did not know. We have reports that the contacts were spread over many months and involved multiple people close to Trump, and it was with people pretty senior in the FSB. That doesn't happen by accident.

Weren't the denials regarding having knowing ties to Putin or Russian government officials about the election? My memory is failing me and I'm on my phone, but if that was the nature of the denials, then that has nothing to do with the conversations we're talking about right now. As far as I know, the Trump camp has never denied having any conversations with any Russians period.

And it doesn't strain credulity, what I said earlier. Ponder for a moment that, as it stands right now, this entire thing could be about associates of Trump having unknowing conversations with Russian intelligence about unrelated matters, and a hostile IC is leaking this information to bog Trump down with a faux scandal and further harm his image. With the information we have, this is absolutely a possibility.

[Breccia]

Maybe I'm missing something, or watch to many movies, but isn't what's happening kinda business as usual?

As mentioned in the articles and dozens of times in this thread, what Trump's campaign did was not business as usual, no. It was too many people, too often, and with suspicious timing. It needs to be investigated.

[Xeones]

Also this whole all Russians are bad thing is fucking racist.

Russians aren't bad. Putin is.

[stomination]

At least Bush won't be considered the worst president anymore.

You mean jimmy Carter.

[Breccia]

Russians aren't bad. Putin is.

I think at this point, most people saying "Russians" in this context are talking about the Russian government and its operatives/agencies. Nobody here has even hinted that Trump or his friends had a meet-and-greet with random-ass Russian civilians.

[Xeones]

I think at this point, most people saying "Russians" in this context are talking about the Russian government and its operatives/agencies. Nobody here has even hinted that Trump or his friends had a meet-and-greet with random-ass Russian civilians.

The guy I quoted was clearly trying to suggest it was applying to all russians

[Breccia]

the Trump camp has never denied having any conversations with any Russians period.

They literally denied it yesterday.

Q Are you -- is the administration undertaking any sort of effort, either Cabinet-wide or, like, inside the shop to make sure that everyone comes forward who had any communications with the Russians about sanctions or otherwise?

MR. SPICER: There’s no other information. I mean, as far as we are aware, that is an isolated incident that occurred. And again, the key point in this isn’t that there were discussions. There was nothing wrong or inappropriate about those discussions. It purely came down to a matter of trust. That’s it.

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Either Spicer and by proxy the administration is lying, or these people for whom there are recordings and transcripts did, in fact, lie to the administration. Neither are redeeming traits.

[Crispin]

Errr what?

How the hell do you come to the conclusion that multiple members of Trump's inner circle having clandestine and secret contact with Russian spies is "much ado about nothing"? I mean just that this happened alone without considering the reasons for those contacts is extremely damning, given that just the existence of these contacts (which you can be sure the FSB have taped on their end) provides plenty of blackmail material against those involved.

There is no world or planet where this is much ado about nothing. You Trumpists can spin all you like. But this is extremely damaging. In no way shape or form is it OK for presidents or their close confidants to knowingly have long term clandestine contact with spies working for a hostile power.

Not sure anyone could expect different, from people who gladly vote in a reality star who graps random women on the pussy and <insert 5 pages of fucked up shit he have pulled so far>

[stomination]

No. Campaigns do not communicate with foreign governments during their campaigns, and especially not foreign intelligence officials. These reports indicate these discussions were happening as far back as early 2016, before the general election was even underway.

And no, diplomacy is not really about talking with spies dude. That's espionage and intelligence gathering. Diplomacy is working with foreign governments, which can at times include their intelligence arms, but usually does not.

Pretty sure both camps had contact with Russia throughout the campaign.

And only a fool would not believe that outside countries didn't talk to Hillary well before the election cycle started. She was a sure in for running for president.

[Breccia]

Weren't the denials regarding having knowing ties to Putin or Russian government officials about the election? My memory is failing me and I'm on my phone, but if that was the nature of the denials, then that has nothing to do with the conversations we're talking about right now. As far as I know, the Trump camp has never denied having any conversations with any Russians period.

Here are four more.

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And only a fool would not believe that outside countries didn't talk to Hillary well before the election cycle started.

Talking to Clinton would actually have been okay. Trump, too.

However, talking to unvetted civilians is not okay. Especially when Russia is intentionally sabotaging the campaign of one of them to help the other.