Midwinter stops raiding

[Smag]

One of those "too much of a good thing" type of situations.
Casual/semi-hardcore guilds always have something to do. Hardcore/WF guilds have too much to do.

Right now, you can clear mythics before the next patch comes while raiding 2 hours a day, 5 days a week (or 3 hours, 4 days).
Or you can just go Mythic+ bananza and get almost the same gear.
I've maintained two almost equaly geared chars (both 890 at the time) on the same AP level without any problems. HPally was on raid progress, RDruid didn't even step a foot in a raid. Go figure.

But you can't do both on 4+ charachters and not feel tired after a while. Multiple gear sources and gear variations tied to a random number generator are OKish, if you do them one at a time or in moderate amounts. Not all of them all the time. That's where the burnout for WF guilds comes in.

Still, it's funny (or sad) that guilds "go casual" after three weeks of progress, when Rag in MC was killed almost 5 months after it's release.

[KaPe]

Still, it's funny (or sad) that guilds "go casual" after three weeks of progress, when Rag in MC was killed almost 5 months after it's release.

Progress in vanilla and progress nowadays are two different things. The latter involves multiple alts, grinding AP on all of them - maybe not to 54, but still - grinding mythic+, split raids and playing for 16+ hours a day during raid release.

[Vzz]

Yo guys, I just wanted to inform you that my guild isn't going casual mode yet.

[Deleted]

Sad to see this oldschool guild stepping down. But I kinda understand, I really need to see the light and the end of a tunnel and for progress guilds this meant "1-2 weeks hardcore then chill period" in the past which kept many people motivated and up there.

[Christan]

Best kind of posts.
At least in this case it's somewhat plausible. I always chuckle when I see a 10000 post 2010 join date user claiming: 'What is Paragon?' 'Who is this Sco guy?'

I know starz paragon midwinter ...i think it was exodus or exsorcius spelling... blood legion etc, even though i never cared much for top progress/players, i didnt even know swifty became a thing until a random pug in cata asked me if i joined darkspear because of swifty...laughed at him and said nope been here since vanilla, main was dierwolf back then blah blah...anyway...

Aside from all that
Idk who sco is. Not sure if i even care, not going to bother looking it up either.

As far as top progress guilds go i can agree with you, but expecting people to know players is kind of funny...
A lot of people just dont care.

It really does blow another top guild is quitting, even one scratchy guild id not heard of before, it was in the top i guess(think i saw a post about them releasing a kill video before they should of?)

[Deleted]

I know starz paragon midwinter ...i think it was exodus or exsorcius spelling... blood legion etc, even though i never cared much for top progress/players, i didnt even know swifty became a thing until a random pug in cata asked me if i joined darkspear because of swifty...laughed at him and said nope been here since vanilla, main was dierwolf back then blah blah...anyway...

Aside from all that
Idk who sco is. Not sure if i even care, not going to bother looking it up either.

As far as top progress guilds go i can agree with you, but expecting people to know players is kind of funny...
A lot of people just dont care.

It really does blow another top guild is quitting, even one scratchy guild id not heard of before, it was in the top i guess(think i saw a post about them releasing a kill video before they should of?)

O please. If you know top end PvE guilds, you know guys like Sco and Slootbag. There are only a few personalities that are inextricably linked to their guild, and that's Sco/Rogerbrown for Method and Slootbag/Kuznam for Serenity. If you know these guilds exists and have followed their progress, you know at least these players.

I mean, my brother doesn't play this game and he knows about Method and Sco.

Then again, wouldn't expect anything from a Swifty nuthugger.

- - - Updated - - -

Progress in vanilla and progress nowadays are two different things. The latter involves multiple alts, grinding AP on all of them - maybe not to 54, but still - grinding mythic+, split raids and playing for 16+ hours a day during raid release.

Obviously the Legion-specific things you described weren't a thing in Vanilla, that's about as dishonest as comparisons get.

In Vanilla a lot of time went into farming reputations and fire/shadow/cold resistance gear. Raid times were incredibly long as well in the guilds that I played in. It's not like daytime raiding is a modern invention.

Progress is of course structurally different now than it was back then, but that's not to say that raiding in Vanilla couldn't be as hardcore as it is now.

[Smag]

Progress is of course structurally different now than it was back then, but that's not to say that raiding in Vanilla couldn't be as hardcore as it is now.

It was a marathon, including the preparation time that was also included in the progression time itself.
You could go to school/work/uni and get back home, raid progression, farm some mats/rep before or after and be done with it. Spend some extra time on weekends to do some other stuff, fun stuff.

Now - it's a sprint with a grindfest before AND after the raid is cleared, because the next one is on PTR. So chop-chop!
You either forget what "downtime" is and spend every spare second grinding AP/legs/TF on all of your mains/main alts/alt alts/maybeourtankgetshitbyabus alts. Or just go full #nolife and get allergies for sunlight. But damn, your fifth mage has dem top legs, brah!

[Dangg]

I know starz paragon midwinter ...

The point isn't that I expect anyone to know them. It's that everytime the guy who makes that post clearly knows it, but pretends not to, to seem edgy or whatever.

[Deleted]

I'm also expecting more of this with the new AP grind in 7.2

I'm in a ~200 guild, and I'm quitting as well.

Or well, handed in my so to speak resignation, still in until replaced...

[kamuimac]

"People need to use self control."
"If your guild is giving you shit for being behind people who are using less self control, you're in a shit guild."
"Just because raids have to be tuned for people without self control doesn't mean the system is in any way bad."

The self control argument is the most absurd thing I've seen take root in this forum. If you build a Skinner box, you don't yell at the rats for behaving in exactly the way behavior science predicts they will act.

oh but no no - first raid wasnt - in fact first raid was tuned perfeckly well ap wise - but idiots whined like little kids about it being "too easy"

well guess what their cries were heared and blizzard tuned raid exackly how they wished

and suddenly "its to much were quiting" voices appear ? f.... them they wish it themselves. they got exackly what they wanted.

[Xirrohon]

Ive always been a fan of Midwinter. Ive known them since back when they were on Ysera, I was in the best Horde guild at the time but MW was always much better than we were. For a long time, MW was the best Alliance guild in the world. And after many guild went Ally, they were still the best US guild finishing in the top 3 for many tiers.

When they moved to Sargeras from Ysera, me and few friends did the same thing. I used to chat with their Mages and ask for tips, they were always friendly and responsive. Good group of players, good group of people.

The way top guilds are dropping should be noticed by Blizz.

[MBTL90]

I really, really don't get the complaining about the ap grind. For 99% of people who play this game, it absolutely doesn't matter. I am at 48/54 on my main weap, and that is with almost 0 extra grinding - just doing dailies, and the occasional m+. If I put even a modicum of effort into it, I would have been 54/54 by now. For any serious raiders, getting 1 weapon to 54 should be a breeze. If you are one of the about 200 people in the top ten guilds tryharding, then you should know what you got yourself into. Split runs and 5+ maxed out characters are a function of the players, not any requirements by blizzard. To be the best, you have to put in the time. What is so crazy about this? And again, this only even applies to the most hardcore of the hardcore. For most "serious" progression guilds, I would expect 885+ilevel and 54 traits on one character going into nighthold. For anyone serious about this game, that is nothing.

To give context on just how few people are actually affected by the grind, here's where I am progression wise. I am in a casual 2 night/week mythic guild. Last night, we killed Chromatic Anomaly. According to wowprogress, that makes us the 2662 ranked guild in the world. Assuming 20 people per kill, that means roughly 53k people have progressed faster/farther than me. We killed Xavius 2438th, or roughly around the same rank, with the same amount of people ahead of us. If you assume us to be the benchmark for a casual mythic guild, that means there is about 53k mythic raiders in the world, give or take. Also according to wowprogress, there is 57 guilds in world, or 1,100 people who have killed 8/10. Even if we assume that all of those guilds did split runs and multiple maxed out characters, that means that roughly 2% of the mythic raiding population is truly affected by the ap grind. If you are a member of that 2%, then you may have the right to complain. Every one else really is unaffected.

[Aguis]

The thing is when you start watching the progress by yourself, every 1% wipe with your weapon at 48/54 or a berserk or a boss that needs dps requirement to change a phase, its practically your fault for not having that extra boost, not giving your guild the help it needs, thats what bothers most of us raiders, who did a lot of prep work before to get a char to the max (reforging with specific numbers anyone?)

Also it's really troublesome to not have an Offspec friendly artifact mechanism like boosting your gains by a % or something like that, for people that have 3 dps specs (warlocks, rogues, etc) and having to switch it's demoralizing.

[MBTL90]

The thing is when you start watching the progress by yourself, every 1% wipe with your weapon at 48/54 or a berserk or a boss that needs dps requirement to change a phase, its practically your fault for not having that extra boost, not giving your guild the help it needs, thats what bothers most of us raiders, who did a lot of prep work before to get a char to the max (reforging with specific numbers anyone?)

Also it's really troublesome to not have an Offspec friendly artifact mechanism like boosting your gains by a % or something like that, for people that have 3 dps specs (warlocks, rogues, etc) and having to switch it's demoralizing.

But what I'm saying is that for anyone doing serious progression, 54/54 is not hard to get to. I'm not saying that 54/54 isn't important, what I'm saying is that all things considered its a pretty reasonable grind unless you are doing it on 4+ characters, which most people aren't.

[KaPe]

But what I'm saying is that for anyone doing serious progression, 54/54 is not hard to get to. I'm not saying that 54/54 isn't important, what I'm saying is that all things considered its a pretty reasonable grind unless you are doing it on 4+ characters, which most people aren't.

Define "not hard". Keep in mind that "not hard to eventually reach 54" is very different from "reach 54 while it's still relevant for progress raiding". No one cares if you'll get that final point right before 7.2 - but if you can't kill some boss because half of your raid is 48, it's something else.

And what if it turns out that your spec A is actually worse than spec B? Well, you're screwed, not only by AP, but by legendaries - unless you got really lucky with the latter.

Again, opinion like yours ignore the fact that we were never as limited as we are now. We never put months of grind into a single spec, without any ability to redirect it into another one. You cannot put those millions of AP into another spec or character. Your legendaries don't change based on spec - which is incredibly stupid considering that tier does.

I'm sure plenty of "mid level" mythic raiders - who don't bother with split raids and multiple characters - we're quite relieved to be done with AP grind for now. I know I am and I'm not looking forward to 7.2. Even if it's "short" and not 1000+ MoS, it will still be several months of the same crap.

[clevin]

it doesnt really matter - at AK 25 you should be geting 1-1,5 mln ap just from doin wq / daily dungeons which should be giving you 1 paragon level every 2nd - 3rd day from playing the game - seems ok to me to be geting +/- 1,5% power gains each week if you play casualy .

Yes it DOES matter. If you have a main at AK25 your can instantly get alts to AK20 which is still very good AP per activity. If someone hit 110 on their main then took a break (a real one, as in not logging in at all), they are not at AK25 so your bolded point doesn't apply.

[Aguis]

But what I'm saying is that for anyone doing serious progression, 54/54 is not hard to get to. I'm not saying that 54/54 isn't important, what I'm saying is that all things considered its a pretty reasonable grind unless you are doing it on 4+ characters, which most people aren't.

As i said, i completely agree with that, but when you have a 3 dps spec character like a rogue, that didnt get the good legendaries and has to switch the spec, THEN you start watching that the grind has no end, and thats when you are mad with the system.

[kamuimac]

Yes it DOES matter. If you have a main at AK25 your can instantly get alts to AK20 which is still very good AP per activity. If someone hit 110 on their main then took a break (a real one, as in not logging in at all), they are not at AK25 so your bolded point doesn't apply.

if someone took a break he should be behind - this is not a moba game when you can jump in and out whenever you like . he isnt able to get instant ak 20 but he can get instant ak 15 and then 2-3 days reaserches - seems fair to me.

- - - Updated - - -

As i said, i completely agree with that, but when you have a 3 dps spec character like a rogue, that didnt get the good legendaries and has to switch the spec, THEN you start watching that the grind has no end, and thats when you are mad with the system.

the only people it affects is fotm rerollers in mythic guilds - insignificant amount of players - majority picks a spec and then play it for coupel of months not swap then from 1 boss to 2nd just because its X% higher dps.

[Volitar]

I'm surprised more hardcore guilds haven't quit TBH. In other expansions you only had to go hard with for a couple of weeks, in Legion its been 6 months + of pure grinding. Legendary system probably didn't help much either.

[Deleted]

GL Midwinter, hope to see you back in action soon!

I already stepped out of raiding for same reasons as many players did.
Still playing as bloody casual, helping guild on split runs, or when needed.

However, there should be weekly AP hard cap , with catch up like PvP system in WoD.
In case you missed few weeks of playing, you can farm AP later until you hit the cap.
Later, AK could boost this further for alts and late players.

Previous expansions were more chilled out, WoD maybe little too much, as all I had to do was join raids.
Otherwise some PvP or playing with alts, so I like these mythics+, even 4WQ's for chest is ok.

But, infinite spamming of m+ for AP, or RnG hunting for desired legendary is overkill..

For legendary system (if they really want to give it for free like candy), I would prefer that everyone gets "utility only" legendary first, like shield neck, healing legs, w/e.
Then 2nd legendary could be created/chosen once some legendary Q item drops, and maybe some mats farming?
So players will be able to choose DPS legendary, whether they want to boost aoe, ST, atler their rotation..
Maybe altering it like that.

I hope they will notice what is happening and will address these issues.