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  1. #1361
    The Lightbringer Romire's Avatar
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    GG america -.-
    Australian Oceanic Multi Class Veteran of the Burning Crusade Wars!
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  2. #1362
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    Romance and love are a relatively new developments.
    Yup it's only within the last few hundred years that Marriage became more romanticized, "religisized" and less of a legal arrangement.

  3. #1363
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Your post in a nutshell:

    Men: Have fun with your bodily autonomy.

    Women: Make sure to ask your betters for permission before exercising bodily autonomy.
    You have the bodily autonomy to use birth control. This is a longstanding legality in regards to child support. FOR BOTH GENDERS.

    If you define unsafe sex as a contract between 2 parties which may lead to a child, both parties bear the responsibilities and choice for that child.

    If you don't agree to the contract.... USE BIRTH CONTROL.

    My only gripe here is that the same lobbies may fight access to birth control as well, but thats a different fight.

    It has nothing to do with fun or autonomy, it has everything to do with taking responsibility for your own !@#$ing body.

    To wit, I think that use of birth control should void the consent requirement here... and "morning after" should be exempt from needing consent as well. Only actual "abortions".

    I don't think this would come up all that often, but its nice to actually practice Equal Rights and get it into law.

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    I'm sorry...then if you don't want to deal with the risk of pregnancy and don't feel the man deserves equal rights though he had a equal share in making the baby as you, then keep your legs shut.

    Only fool proof way to prevent pregnancy....
    A man does not have any rights to a woman's body.

  5. #1365
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    A man does not have any rights to a woman's body.
    Then I suppose you're for abolishing child support right? If he has no rights to the child he helped create then he should have no responsibility if he doesn't wish to keep the child...

  6. #1366
    A man does not have any rights to a woman's body.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    If he has no rights to the child he helped create
    wut.

    10char

  7. #1367
    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    Then I suppose you're for abolishing child support right? If he has no rights to the child he helped create then he should have no responsibility if he doesn't wish to keep the child...
    i dont know how many times it must be said, but child support is just that. support for the child. if a child exists it doesnt matter how anyone felt about the matter, it must be taken care of. either by the taxpayer or by those responsible for it. abortion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

  8. #1368
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    And why is that? It applies in almost every single situation, but it has to be consensual pregnancy where that simple right is exempt?
    Not exempt, no. Please do not impose words upon me. Bodily autonomy is irrelevant as an argument when discussing abortion. With consensual sex, a woman is exercising her bodily autonomy. She makes the conscious, personal, informed decision to get pregnant. Myself and others disagree that a woman be legally allowed to murder another human that she consented to have.
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  9. #1369
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeth Hawkins View Post
    Not exempt, no. Please do not impose words upon me. Bodily autonomy is irrelevant as an argument when discussing abortion. With consensual sex, a woman is exercising her bodily autonomy. She makes the conscious, personal, informed decision to get pregnant. Myself and others disagree that a woman be legally allowed to murder another human that she consented to have.
    thats not how bodily autonomy, personhood, or murder works. great emotional argument though.

  10. #1370
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeth Hawkins View Post
    Not exempt, no. Please do not impose words upon me. Bodily autonomy is irrelevant as an argument when discussing abortion. With consensual sex, a woman is exercising her bodily autonomy. She makes the conscious, personal, informed decision to get pregnant. Myself and others disagree that a woman be legally allowed to murder another human that she consented to have.
    First of all, continuous consent must be maintained in order for a person's body to be used by anyone. Consent ends the moment a pregnant female wishes to abort.

    Secondly, murder is the unlawful killing of another human and abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a fetus. She is removing the fetus from her body because she no longer consents to use her body to sustain it's life. The fact that it can't survive without the use of her body doesn't mean she killed it.

    And finally, if you wish to gain the right to force pregnant females to use their bodies to continue to sustain life without their consent, everyone else will then gain the right to force you to use your body to continue to sustain life without your consent.
    Last edited by Total Crica; 2017-02-16 at 05:47 AM.

  11. #1371
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    i dont know how many times it must be said, but child support is just that. support for the child. if a child exists it doesnt matter how anyone felt about the matter, it must be taken care of. either by the taxpayer or by those responsible for it. abortion has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    So it's a bullshit system which gives the man no power and the woman all the power, screws him over royally that he has no choice in the matter.

    If the guy doesn't want the child yet the woman decides to keep it he shouldn't be forced to pay for it for 18 years if he has no say in whether she keeps it.

  12. #1372
    Old God Mistame's Avatar
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    Wow, I didn't think this thread could actually go downhill further. >.<

    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    No, thanks. I'm not having my life ruined like that. Nor should other men.
    You can't be so adamant about this stance without accepting the majority of the responsibility. People are idiots and cunts. If you're too incompetent or self-righteous to double-wrap and pull out, you've no business fucking. The sooner men realize that they have control of the swimmers, the sooner "ebil wiminz" lose their power.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne01 View Post
    It factually is murder.
    You should probably understand the words you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne01 View Post
    You seem to imply that I hold the law as my highest court.
    The law technically is the highest court. Though I suppose you may be referring to religion, in which case that's sufficient enough reason for any rational person to disregard anything you have to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Yup it's only within the last few hundred years that Marriage became more romanticized, "religisized" and less of a legal arrangement.
    Mostly a social construct used to fortify monogamy, etc.

  13. #1373
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    thats not how bodily autonomy, personhood, or murder works. great emotional argument though.
    If you are in possession of counter-arguments, I would appreciate the opportunity to see them. Merely saying that I am wrong does nothing for either side of the debate. As you claim my argument comes only from emotion, you most assuredly are of the opinion that I am coming from a position lacking in facts. Again, I would very much enjoy being exposed to your reasonings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tota View Post
    First of all, continuous consent must be maintained in order for a person's body to be used by anyone. Consent ends the moment a pregnant female wishes to abort.
    Might I inquire as to where you read about "continuous consent"? I have done some searching myself, but came across no reputable sources. One copypasta of that statement kept coming up. It was by someone named Hanna Goff, whom I could only identify as a random person on Tumblr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tota View Post
    Secondly, murder is the unlawful killing of another human and abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a fetus. She is removing the fetus from her body because she no longer consents to use her body to sustain it's life. The fact that it can't survive without the use of her body doesn't mean she killed it.
    Come now, I know that you wish to hold intellectual superiority over me, but stating that "abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a fetus" is not the way to go about it. Pregnancy is the act of playing host to a living human as it develops to a state of foetal viability. Termination of a pregnancy is unequivocally the termination of a human life; death is the intended outcome of the act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tota View Post
    And finally, if you wish to gain the right to force pregnant females to use their bodies to continue to sustain life without their consent, everyone else will then gain the right to force you to use your body to continue to sustain life without your consent.
    I am afraid that the coherence of your position only degrades further with this final statement. In what way am I currently using my body to sustain life without my consent? Further, as stated in my previous post, nobody is forcing these women to do anything without their consent. They have already given their consent to sustain the life of the human that they helped create. I am proposing that we remove their ability to end that life outside of non-consensual circumstances.

    It would seem that the main contention with the two sides of this divide is whether or not you consider ending the life of an in-utero human to be murder. Obviously, you do not.

    Oddly, the law does on some occasions.
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  14. #1374
    I could totally see a woman employing pregnancy to blackmail a man, as well as employing termination of that pregnancy to blackmail that man.

    I don't think the consent should be needed in cases of criminal or amoral nature of course.

    But I guess if we're going to determine as a society that a pregnancy of any kind can only be aborted in the earlier trimesters, then consent of the father shouldn't be necessary.

    If, however, we're going to let women legally abort children six months into pregnancy, that probably takes father's consent. A refusal should free the woman from all legal responsibility from the born child, but now we're talking about women voluntarily destroying their own fetuses late term to escape that clause.

    Which is interesting because while many would call that legal because the woman should be allowed to choose what to do with their body, the fact we're admitting women feel desperate to do such an action to free themselves from the shackles of societal abuse trying to force them to birth the child, is also relevant proof that a woman would be ready to use such a condition to blackmail a father waiting for an invested child, especially if its a fetus in the later term and close to birth.

  15. #1375
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeth Hawkins View Post
    If you are in possession of counter-arguments, I would appreciate the opportunity to see them. Merely saying that I am wrong does nothing for either side of the debate. As you claim my argument comes only from emotion, you most assuredly are of the opinion that I am coming from a position lacking in facts. Again, I would very much enjoy being exposed to your reasonings.


    Might I inquire as to where you read about "continuous consent"? I have done some searching myself, but came across no reputable sources. One copypasta of that statement kept coming up. It was by someone named Hanna Goff, whom I could only identify as a random person on Tumblr.


    Come now, I know that you wish to hold intellectual superiority over me, but stating that "abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a fetus" is not the way to go about it. Pregnancy is the act of playing host to a living human as it develops to a state of foetal viability. Termination of a pregnancy is unequivocally the termination of a human life; death is the intended outcome of the act.


    I am afraid that the coherence of your position only degrades further with this final statement. In what way am I currently using my body to sustain life without my consent? Further, as stated in my previous post, nobody is forcing these women to do anything without their consent. They have already given their consent to sustain the life of the human that they helped create. I am proposing that we remove their ability to end that life outside of non-consensual circumstances.

    It would seem that the main contention with the two sides of this divide is whether or not you consider ending the life of an in-utero human to be murder. Obviously, you do not.

    Oddly, the law does on some occasions.
    If you think no one needs continuous consent to use your body, then I can continue to use your body regardless if you tell me to stop using it simply because you already consented.

    If you think the definition of abortion is NOT the termination of a pregnancy, then you are saying a woman who has had an abortion is STILL pregnant.

    I am not saying you ARE using your body to sustain life, I said that everyone would gain the right to force you to continue to do so if you ever decide to use your body to sustain life. (if you want to be technical about it, you are using your body to sustain YOUR life, doctors use their bodies to sustain lives, etc)

    Death is an inevitable result of abortion since the fetus can not survive without the use of the body it resides in, but not the intended result. The intended result is to remove the fetus from the uterus in order to terminate the pregnancy, which you would know if you actually researched the definition of the word "abortion", one link I already provided for you to help you to do so.

    "Abortion is the ending of pregnancy by removing a fetus or embryo before it can survive outside the uterus. An abortion which occurs spontaneously is also known as a miscarriage."

    Of course abortion is not murder, since you did not kill it, either legally or illegally, you stopped it from using your body by removing it from your body.

    But no one has a right to live if they require someone else's body to survive because no one can be forced to use their body to ensure they survive. If people did have this right, everyone would have free health care by forcing people to be doctors to ensure everyone survives.
    Last edited by Total Crica; 2017-02-16 at 07:41 AM.

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    So it's a bullshit system which gives the man no power and the woman all the power, screws him over royally that he has no choice in the matter.

    If the guy doesn't want the child yet the woman decides to keep it he shouldn't be forced to pay for it for 18 years if he has no say in whether she keeps it.
    its not a "system for power". its a system to take care of a child. abortion is completely irrelevant to child support. either the parents pay for it or it becomes a ward of the state. both parents are equally obligated to pay child support regardless of how they feel about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeth Hawkins View Post
    If you are in possession of counter-arguments, I would appreciate the opportunity to see them. Merely saying that I am wrong does nothing for either side of the debate. As you claim my argument comes only from emotion, you most assuredly are of the opinion that I am coming from a position lacking in facts. Again, I would very much enjoy being exposed to your reasonings.
    you want to discuss legality while completely misusing the terms. apparently posting definitions is not allowed on this forum, so suffice it to say that they have been discussed ad nauseum by people far more qualified than you or i, and been found to not apply.

    if unformed cells were given the full legal rights of a human being, then there is no compromise to be had on the issue. a miscarriage or period or (on mens part), masturbation would be considered manslaughter.
    if bodily autonomy does not apply to pregnancy, it doesnt apply to any other bodily function as well. the reverse is also true.

    so when you throw around things like "abortion is the murder of a human being" you are not arguing from any sort of definition other than your own personal view. and thats fine to have a personal view, as long as you dont try to force it on others who abide by the one society and science support.

  17. #1377
    As much as believe in equal rights i do also believe in bodily autonomy, if she wants the baby aborted she gets the final say as it is her body that is affected by the pregnancy.

  18. #1378
    Takes 2 to make a child. It's only logical that both parties get to vote.

    The part i don't get is, if it ties, who decides?

    - Mother keeps child she doesnt want to (rape, "condom accident")
    - Father has to keep child he doesn't want to ("condom accident", etc)

    Either way someone loses.
    Last edited by Guyv3r; 2017-02-16 at 12:41 PM.
    Money talks, bullshit walks..

  19. #1379
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyv3r View Post
    It's only logical that both parties get to vote.
    No one gets a vote in using your body without your consent.

  20. #1380
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyv3r View Post
    Takes 2 to make a child. It's only logical that both parties get to vote.

    The part i don't get is, if it ties, who decides?

    - Mother keeps child she doesnt want to (rape, "condom accident")
    - Father has to keep child he doesn't want to ("condom accident", etc)

    Either way someone loses.
    The man squirts and is done. Something he does many times a week just for his own pleasure. That cannot be compared to a pregnancy. The woman make all the sacrifices, and should therefore make the call whether to keep it or abort it. Doctors and midwives do more work than the father in making sure a child is born healthy, should they have a say as well?

    I agree that the child support laws are outdated. If a father wants to ditch the whole thing, he should be able to, losing all parental rights to the child, and probably also a restraining order to make sure he doesn't try get around it for free. But he should never be able to force a woman to go through pregnancy.
    Mother pus bucket!

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