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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    Russia's behaviour is a threat to peace, people can't magically accept the status quo after this referendum in this war.
    Why exactly? It's not "magic", with exception to Ukrainians noone actually cares enough, and once you'll stop supporting their fervor Ukrainians will eventually accept it too.

    They give too many examples they can't be trusted.
    So do you... remember those Mistrals? Clear breach of trust...

    Disregarding critical comments from so many countries is not promoting peace and good relations.
    How many critical comments from Russia did you disregard too? Does Libya rings a bell?

    Maybe Crimeans wanted to be independent, outside of both Ukraine and Russia? Where was this option?
    Maybe they actually wanted to be ruled by Martians, where was that option?

  2. #122
    Observers denied because the referendum was illegal, it's not a difficult concept to understand

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Observers denied because the referendum was illegal, it's not a difficult concept to understand
    They refused before it became illegal.

    *EDIT*

    To clarify, Crimea had the legal authority to hold the referendum until the day before when the Ukrainian supreme council ordered the dissolution of the Crimean supreme council (a power they gained after overthrowing the Crimean government in 1995).

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    They refused before it became illegal.
    lol what? Were they invited by Ukraine?

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If Russia wants to be fine with this, then any part of Russia that decides they do not wish to be a part of them, can freely vote on their own to leave. After all, we don't want the Russians to be hypocrites, do we?
    Why not? Seems to work fine for West.

    "What is good for goose is good for gander", as the saying goes.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    lol what? Were they invited by Ukraine?
    See my edit.

  7. #127
    The Patient Natylyaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Why exactly? It's not "magic", with exception to Ukrainians noone actually cares enough, and once you'll stop supporting their fervor Ukrainians will eventually accept it too.

    So do you... remember those Mistrals? Clear breach of trust...

    How many critical comments from Russia did you disregard too? Does Libya rings a bell?

    Maybe they actually wanted to be ruled by Martians, where was that option?
    Me, personally? I think France has been stupid regarding the Mistrals and Libya, and I wish a French official could say the same.
    Can you say the same about Russia? I'm not saying France is better than Russia, I'm saying Russia handled this poorly and peace suffers as a consequence.

    You comment about Martians is utterly irrelevant, how is that remotely close to Crimeans wanting independence? They probably wanted it, it's entirely possible.
    They were given the choice between control form Kiev or from Moscow, in a poorly led referendum.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    I am not arguing that many people in Crimea wanted to become part of the Russian Federation (the truth is probably between 50% and 90%).
    I am arguing that Russia makes no effort to make this referendum look like it's legitimate.
    - Options in the referendum, why no question in favour of the current situation?
    - Irregularities during the vote (transparent ballots, no envelopes, no identity check, russians could vote)
    - Military presence (it was Ukrainian territory regarding international law)

    To be accepted and respected, a country has to accept its shortcomings and its past errors.
    I am French, and I am fully aware France has done so many terrible things in the past, and still do in some occasions.
    Claiming the Crimea referendum is entirely regular and legitimate will not improve the perception of Russia at all (my best friend is russian, and he's so pissed at this mentality of everything is perfect in Russia and Putin).
    Russia is a great country, an awesome place to visit, but they look like pedantic aggressors from the outside, and that's a negative for both Russians and Europeans (and everyone).
    1. There was option to stay in Ukraine, questions were:

    «Вы за воссоединение Крыма с Россией на правах субъекта Российской Федерации?»
    «Вы за восстановление действия Конституции Республики Крым 1992 года и за статус Крыма как части Украины?»
    google translate yourself.
    2. No identity check/ Russians could vote? You've been allowed to vote only with Ukrainian passport and if at moment of referendum you ve been oficcialy living in Crimea/Sevastopol.

    So according to your POV, Russia must act herself basing on how it will look to ..foreigners? No thx. Russia will have always *bad perception* when we r doing something that doesnt suits western interests. Even if we copy what west were doing. Thats it. No one wants strong russia, returning of Crimea is sure big win from geopolitical point of wiev to Russia, doesnt matter that its almost same case that Kosovo has, west will always demonize Russia.
    About mentality, maybe this will be big surprice for you, but i support returning of Crimea, but dont support Putin, and theres shithole problems in Russia, i realize them. Many of people of my age thinks same way. New generation is more westernized (thx to internet), so i hope when politics that grew up and made their career in USSR will gone, situation will improve.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You don't get to make statements like this after you've put nationalists in the White House.
    Mostly this. But but... :-)
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    Me, personally? I think France has been stupid regarding the Mistrals and Libya, and I wish a French official could say the same.
    Can you say the same about Russia? I'm not saying France is better than Russia, I'm saying Russia handled this poorly and peace suffers as a consequence.
    Crimea was handled perfectly and with minimal casualties.

    Donbass wasn't as clean and there is room for criticism there.

    You comment about Martians is utterly irrelevant, how is that remotely close to Crimeans wanting independence? They probably wanted it, it's entirely possible.
    It's not given option of joining Russia. Full independence is huge hassle and Ukraine could crush them militarily again without Russian help, so why would they choose that?

    Just imagine same embargo as West imposed on them currently but without access to Russian market and resources.

    It's death wish.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2017-02-16 at 01:29 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    You have completely missed the point of my post, here it is:



    If you want a region to switch countries, make it happen in a way which is likely to be accepted by the international community, this is not the case.
    Again: I am NOT arguing the fact that Crimeans wanted to become Russians.
    They were always russians.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Why not? Seems to work fine for West.

    "What is good for goose is good for gander", as the saying goes.
    SO, if any group of people wants to secede from Russia, the Russian government would be fine with it, and let them go peacefully? History would show otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Crimea was handled perfectly and with minimal casualties.

    Donbass wasn't as clean and there is room for criticism there.

    It's not given option of joining Russia. Full independence is huge hassle and Ukraine could crush them militarily again without Russian help, so why would they choose that?

    Just imagine same embargo as West imposed on them currently but without access to Russian market and resources.

    It's death wish.
    Why not give them the option to choose? That's right, because it was something pushed by the Russian government, and they don't really like freedom or independence.

    The solution is simple, let the people in Crimea who didn't want to become part of Russia be allowed to stay part of Ukraine. They can simply tell Russia that Russia has no authority over them, and they voted to be a part of Ukraine. Surely Russia would agree to that.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    SO, if any group of people wants to secede from Russia, the Russian government would be fine with it, and let them go peacefully? History would show otherwise.
    If you cannot read, let me spell it more clearly - "It is perfectly fine for Russia to be hypocritical, given Western example".

    Supporting Crimean accession doesn't mean we will not crush any separatist movements ourselves.

  14. #134
    The Patient Natylyaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dentelan View Post
    They were always russians.
    How about before WW2? Not saying Ukraine has is better here.
    That's like saying Northern America was always full of English speaking Caucasian people.
    If the people are killed (America) or are deported (Crimea), obviously there are only English and Russian people left.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    If you cannot read, let me spell it more clearly - "It is perfectly fine for Russia to be hypocritical, given Western example".

    Supporting Crimean accession doesn't mean we will not crush any separatist movements ourselves.
    No, it is not fine to be hypocritical, it still makes you a hypocrite.

  16. #136
    The Patient Natylyaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    If you cannot read, let me spell it more clearly - "It is perfectly fine for Russia to be hypocritical, given Western example".

    Supporting Crimean accession doesn't mean we will not crush any separatist movements ourselves.
    Why would any separatist movement have to be crushed?
    Russia could have protected an independent Crimea against Ukraine.
    Instead, Russia pushed for a referendum to incorporate this region, which was rid off non-Russians after WW2.
    Not exactly the will of the Crimeans there.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    How about before WW2? Not saying Ukraine has is better here.
    That's like saying Northern America was always full of English speaking Caucasian people.
    If the people are killed (America) or are deported (Crimea), obviously there are only English and Russian people left.
    Russians were still majority even before deportating of Crimean Tatars (which has its reasons actually).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, it is not fine to be hypocritical, it still makes you a hypocrite.
    If you want to fight with hyocritical countires, start with western ones.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Dentelan View Post
    Russians were still majority even before deportating of Crimean Tatars (which has its reasons actually).

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you want to fight with hyocritical countires, start with western ones.
    I'll simply choose not to support hypocrisy, problem solved.

  19. #139
    Stood in the Fire Dentelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'll simply choose not to support hypocrisy, problem solved.
    Selectively fighting hypocrisy is ...hypocrisy.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    How about before WW2?
    I think it was mostly tatars that lived there. Not russians, not ukrainians.

    But its irrelevant. If we go by something 100 years ago, my country (Estonia) shouldn't even exist. Before WW1 it never existed. Before WW1 territory belonged to Russia for over 100 years, before that it belonged to whichever country was biggest at time. It existed for only couple of decades between WW1 and WW2. So should entire baltic region, including Finland, be returned to Russia because it used to be part of Russia before soviet revolution? Nope.

    Ancient borders are completely irrelevant. Entire nations move over time, borders change. What matters is who lives in territory now.

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